ir_fuel Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: also a foot in the door for starting independent product development outside CN. Isn't this what these kinds of measures are trying to accomplish? But in the end it will be a more expensive product of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 TBH I can understand you want to protect your country from killing the local market by flooding it with cheap alternatives coming from countries where wages are extremely low or where they don't give a shit about rules and regulations (then again, dumping coal waste in rivers .... anyhow, off topic ...). If you have a car industry it makes sense to try and protect it from a foreign car industry, if you have a steel industry you don't want the Chinese to dump steel on your market for 20% of the price etc. But on stuff for which no local alternative exists? Any idea how long it would take before a viable local alternative would become available on the market, and who would pay the risks of trying this? Especially in unstable political/economical climates such as the US? Imagine you go "America First" and start spending millions in getting a local operation running to produce EUC's, or TV's, or whatever it is that gets taxed and comes from China, and in a couple of years you get a new, Democratic, president who goes "oh well, all that stuff Trump did? Nah, I'm just going to stop all that again" (same way Trump's mission right now is to undo as much as possible of the policies of the previous president, as he thinks they are bad decisions). No matter who is right or wrong in this discussion, nobody can make long term commitments with this kind of uncertainty. So in the end you'll just end up with products from abroad, but more expensive, and the victim of all this? The consumer. Protecting what you have is (IMO) a good idea. Trying to bring back what's been gone for a long time? Bad idea. That ship has sailed. my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARPed1701D Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: The product classifications that effect Electric Unicycles/Scooters currently fall into is the 8711.60, which is part of Annex C. From what I understand, these will NOT come into effect on July 6th, which is at least a temporary reprieve for us & our Customers concerned about what this action will have on their back-orders. Component Input value: because the battery cells are made in Korea (possibly Japan for the Sanyo 3.5Ah GA cells) & represent around 50% of input costs, does this mean the packs can be shipped outside the assembled Unicycle & are exempt from the new tariff? Our broker is trying to make this assessment. Final US Assembly: possibility of setting up a final assembly facility in the US. There's various Pros & Cons to this approach, some componentry, such as the Motors, will still be taxed at 25% rate, but it could be an an acceptable way through this situation; also a foot in the door for starting independent product development outside CN. "Effective date of duties: The additional duties set out in Annex A to this notice are effective with respect to products that are entered for consumption, or withdrawn from warehouse for consumption, on or after July 6, 2018. Comment and hearing deadline: To be assured of consideration, you must submit comments and responses with respect to the proposed list of products in Annex C to this notice in accordance with the following schedule: In other words, USTR is inviting comments on maintaining or removing a subheading currently listed in Annex C, not on the tariff subheadings in Annex A, or any other subheading" I'm surprised, but happy, that EUCs fall under 8711.60. 8711.60.00 - Motorcycles (including mopeds) and cycles fitted with an auxiliary motor, with or without side-cars; side-cars, with electric motor for propulsion Scooters I can understand and you can kick them along allowing the motor to be considered 'auxiliary', but EUCs are a very different kettle of fish with the motor being the only drive method. Not complaining though. And with the batteries, although the cells are made elsewhere wouldn't the assembled pack be considered as coming from China and so taxable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demargon Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 6 hours ago, WARPed1701D said: with the motor being the only drive method Another interpretation about that is: The motor can´t move the euc by himself, it need the human strength to balance, without it can´t achieve the drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Let's do some calculations. Say a wheel selling for $1500 retail to the consumer costs $1000 wholesale. 25% tax would make it cost $1250 for the dealer so their profit is down 50% while their expenses (shipping, warehouse storage, staff fees, brokerage fees, etc) remain the same. This is assuming that they tax the entire declared cost of the EUC and not just the individual components like the motor while exempting the other parts of the wheel. The dealer could pass that tax along to the consumer making the wheel cost $1750 to regain their original profit, or they could order the EUC in parts to assemble in the US. If the battery packs, shells, pedal assemblies are tax exempt and only the motor is taxed at 25% this would reduce that $250 in taxes quite a bit. Say the motor costs $100. The taxes then would only increase the cost $25. But the manufacturer would need to sell the unassembled wheel for less due to the labor savings so now the wheel costs say $950 wholesale. Net cost is now $975 to the dealer after tax. Unfortunately, or fortunately for US workers, the dealer now has to hire extra staff to put the wheel together and burden themselves with a large part of the quality control and assurance. Although they might be able to blame the manufacturer for weak or defective parts and poor design, they will be directly in the line of fire for the quality of their assembly work and testing. If the dealer can find someone to put wheels together at $25 per wheel, costs to the consumer may not change. The question is whether the dealer can find skilled enough labor to do so and secure a location to assemble and repackage the wheels unless they can do it at their shipping warehouse. To do all that extra work and keep it under $25 per wheel might be a challenge so prices could still see an increase and consumer may see delays in receiving wheels due to labor bottle necks. Anyone want to assemble 200 wheels? Ever see the differences in shell assemble of a complex InMotion product versus a Gotway? All this also raises the question as to what wheel makers like InMotion and Ninebot/Segway that have US offices will do. Will they make their wheels available in disassembled form for dealers? If they don't we may see the prices for their products affected while other more flexible wheel makers might not. In the end, it will be a lot of extra work, but there will be US jobs to be had and money rediverted more to the US. Good for the local economy. For the EUC consumer we may see some price increases unless the dealers can work the numbers and arrange cost effective local assembly measures. Dealers also would justifiably deserve an increase in profit for the extra effort and responsibility. As well would this open them up to legal vulnerabilities? It's not just Gotway's wheel any more, but a "Made in America" product now. Or a portion of it. In an injury lawsuit that may play a factor in how damages are calculated. Unless a dealer is quite motivated, they could just say screw it this is too much extra work exposing themselves to possible legal consequences and simply charge the extra $250 to the consumer. @adhermes had a friend who fell off a Ninebot and sought legal action. Now imagine a guy like Chooch... what would he do in a similar situation. Hmmm the mind wanders... And oooOOhh maybe I can be an economicsologist afterall! Printing that degree up as we speak!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayRay Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Dealers also would justifiably deserve an increase in profit for the extra effort and responsibility. As well would this open them up to legal vulnerabilities? It's not just Gotway's wheel any more, but a "Made in America" product now. Or a portion of it. In an injury lawsuit that may play a factor in how damages are calculated If we assemble and sell a product, we made it (not just dealers); regardless of where we're located. Nevertheless, 'Made in America' has a lot of implications... The 'Made in USA' label is strictly controlled by the FTC and must be "all or virtually all made in the U.S". A product that includes foreign components may be called 'Assembled in US' - but country of origin/parts wouldn't appear to affect seller liability... If Segway assembles wheels in Ohio and InMotion assembles wheels in Tijuana, they should be equally culpable (right?). Now, if Hunka sells me a wheel assembled from Gotway sourced components (and I bruise my knee), I'm suing Hunka for all he's worth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 31 minutes ago, RayRay said: ....Now, if Hunka sells me a wheel assembled from Gotway sourced components (and I bruise my knee), I'm suing Hunka for all he's worth! Good thing a hill of beans is worth more. All you would get is this can: There are ways to have multiple corporations to help shelter assets from legal vulnerabilities I believe. Like they say, never put all your eggs in one basket! Maybe "Made in America from imported parts" would be more safe. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/35821593/ns/business-us_business/t/made-america-rules-are-complex-confusing/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayRay Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: There are ways to have multiple corporations to help shelter assets from legal vulnerabilities I believe. Like they say, never put all your eggs in one basket! I knew it! HHBL Inc. had to be a shell corporation... The Cayman Islands corporate headquarters should have been a dead giveaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 SshhhhHHHHHhhhhhHHHHhhh.... Let's just say my Swiss bank accounts are untraceable. Bare trusts, holding accounts, it's complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudust Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 according to financial times' article on July 2nd. 8711.60.00 does fall under the 25% duty. Does anyone know when it will be enforced? Millennials’ favourite gadgets dragged into trade war _ Financial Times.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 As the state of Montana found out, the cost of cleaning up mining pollution greatly exceeds any value extracted from the earth, by a factor of much more than 10. Not cleaning up the pollution, in increased health care costs (mercury is the dominant element used to separate heavy metals from dirt), is even more expensive. Combined, do not allow mining companies into your state, ever. The cost is too high, the payback too low. If you need batteries, mine that shit in China or some other 3rd world country, let them kill their populace, and then bring the nearly assembled product here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xolition Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 13 hours ago, LanghamP said: As the state of Montana found out, the cost of cleaning up mining pollution greatly exceeds any value extracted from the earth, by a factor of much more than 10. Not cleaning up the pollution, in increased health care costs (mercury is the dominant element used to separate heavy metals from dirt), is even more expensive. Combined, do not allow mining companies into your state, ever. The cost is too high, the payback too low. If you need batteries, mine that shit in China or some other 3rd world country, let them kill their populace, and then bring the nearly assembled product here. Musk is opening a giant lithium mine in NV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannings Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 On 6/16/2018 at 1:38 PM, WARPed1701D said: I'm surprised, but happy, that EUCs fall under 8711.60. 8711.60.00 - Motorcycles (including mopeds) and cycles fitted with an auxiliary motor, with or without side-cars; side-cars, with electric motor for propulsion Scooters I can understand and you can kick them along allowing the motor to be considered 'auxiliary', but EUCs are a very different kettle of fish with the motor being the only drive method. Not complaining though. And with the batteries, although the cells are made elsewhere wouldn't the assembled pack be considered as coming from China and so taxable? I wonder if the uk would classify these the same and then that would be a standpoint for getting them licenced here.....hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluewheel Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Hi guys - is there anyone here from Europe who has been charged? Just curious otherwise I might cancel my order. With 23% VAT and 12% Custom Duty there is absolutely no way I will go ahead with the order. So has anyone (from Europe) been charged these taxes for his EUC? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/19/2018 at 2:00 PM, bluewheel said: Hi guys - is there anyone here from Europe who has been charged? Well, we all should’ve been. It’s best to first confirm from the seller wether they have a way to circumvent the import tax. What many sellers do is they first ship the wheel to a location inside EU, in my understanding either as a tax-free inter-company shipment, or utilizing a sum deal made with UPS where they pay a fixed sum for all yearly shipments’ taxes. Only then is the wheel shipped to the customer. All 7 wheels me and my friends have bought were bought from such sellers, so no taxes were charged from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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