V10F vs KS18L?

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, that0n3guy said:

On first ride, yes.   I'm not sure that is true the more miles I put on it.   Right now I just need some more time on the 18l.   My feet fatigue much faster on the 18l though so putting miles on is taking me longer.   I may remove the outside peddle padding (am I even supposed to leave that on there?), See if that helps.

Yes, I experience foot fatigue on my current KS 18. Although, my feet are quite a bit tougher now than they were a couple of years ago, and I can ride much longer distances before needing to rest, I still experience foot fatigue. Actually, ordered an 18L today (matte black) should arrive later in the month. Looking forward to riding the L to determine if the foot fatigue issue is any better than my current wheel. I am sure that the manufacturers will eventually tackle the comfort vs grip conflict with the foot platforms. For now, it seems the buyer must continue to choose which one they prefer to have in greater abundance. By the way, I don't have any outside pedal padding on my current 18. Not sure what purpose padding would serve on the outside of the foot platform, seems better served underneath the feet.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Lutalo

[eddiemoy]

14 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Yes, I experience foot fatigue on my current KS 18. Although, my feet are quite a bit tougher now than they were a couple of years ago, and I can ride much longer distances before needing to rest, I still experience foot fatigue. Actually, ordered an 18L today (matte black) should arrive later in the month. Looking forward to riding the L to determine if the foot fatigue issue is any better than my current wheel. I am sure that the manufacturers will eventually tackle the comfort vs grip conflict with the foot platforms. For now, it seems the buyer must continue to choose which one they prefer to have in greater abundance. By the way, I don't have any outside pedal padding on my current 18. Not sure what purpose padding would serve on the outside of the foot platform, seems better served underneath the feet.

If you have the the KS18, didn't you learn to ride seated?  I can't give up my 18S because it is the only wheel with the seat that is rideable besides the GW monster.  

The foam on the pedal they put there to prevent you from scratching the case when closing the pedals.

 

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

If you have the the KS18, didn't you learn to ride seated?  I can't give up my 18S because it is the only wheel with the seat that is rideable besides the GW monster.  

The foam on the pedal they put there to prevent you from scratching the case when closing the pedals.

 

Tried it. Didn't like it. Although I can't precisely pinpoint what it is that makes it uncomfortable for me, I suspect seated riding works better for shorter folks; I am 6' 2." That isn't Shaq height, but maybe tall enough to make me prefer resting my feet while sitting on park benches over resting on my seat while riding. I just don't feel as if I have the same level of control over the wheel when seated riding as I do with upright riding. Anyway, its pretty much a moot issue for me when the 18L arrives. By the way, I have definitely used the foam cover pad on the occasions that I ridden seated. I can't imagine appreciating the monstrous wedgie riding atop the bare handle would cause ???

Edited July 7, 2018 by Lutalo

[eddiemoy]

5 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Tried it. Didn't like it. Although I can't precisely pinpoint what it is that makes it uncomfortable for me, I suspect seated riding works better for shorter folks; I am 6' 2." That isn't Shaq height, but maybe tall enough to make me prefer resting my feet while sitting on park benches over resting on my seat while riding. I just don't feel as if I have the same level of control over the wheel when seated riding as I do with upright riding. Anyway, its pretty much a moot issue for me when the 18L arrives. By the way, I have definitely used the foam cover pad on the occasions that I ridden seated. I can't imagine appreciating the monstrous wedgie riding atop the bare handle would cause ???

It's a skill like any other on the EUC's.  If you want foot relief, that is the only option that I found that works.  It was difficult in the beginning, but then you learn the proper technique for riding seated also learn transitions standing to sitting and vice versa.  It feels scary in the beginning.  Also I still really only use it when I can ride straight or if there is enough room for my current skill level.  It is definitely not as maneuverable seated as you are standing.  But it is probably because you are not used to it.

Also it isn't your height.  I've seen people who sit on much shorter wheels not design with seats.  I have no idea how they do it.  Give it a try if you want foot relief.  It is worth it when you figure it out.  Also I saw a video on it and this guy was big and I took tips from many places to get to my limited skill riding seated.  Sometimes I'm still not comfortable.

Some folks are really skilled like @houseofjob who I've learned from.

Here are a couple of videos including one featuring @houseofjob

 

[houseofjob]

@Lutalo the more years that pass in my EUC life, the more I'm convinced foot pain mainly comes from the inability to be light on your feet while riding, and not just stationary and flat-footed, as is the tendency of many riders on this forum I see. 

If you think about it, if we stood standing on the ground in place, with the same foot positioning all day (like mall stand workers, greeters, etc.), never moving our feet/legs from the ground, we would develop foot pain as well.

In my riding, I've learned to be able to heel-toe pivot (one foot slightly forward on the pedals with heel up, while the other foot is slightly back on the pedals, balls up; then vice-versa) not only to re-position my feet on the pedals and leverage forward and backward leans, but also to keep my feet in motion and avoid foot pain. At any point in time, never is my weight distributed equally between both feet, always one being more favored (even if slightly; this also helps eliminate wobbles and make better turns).

As I've developed this heel-toe pivot method, I've even learned to sometimes have the arches of my feet on the front or back side edges of the pedals themselves, which with the right pliable shoe, will massage my arches at times.

 

.... and then with seated EUCs like the KS18 in question, as @eddiemoy has stated, this frees you up entirely off of your feet, though it takes a different approach from regular standing riding. (I as well, will never give up owning at least 1 seated EUC)

While the KS18 is a little bit short in length for a seat, especially for taller guys like yourself, when you learn the physics of it, I don't think it will be that bad, even for taller folks. 

The seated positioning on the KS18, even for someone shorter (like myself at 5'7"), is a bit odd at first. But when you adjust, you'll realize you need to sit a bit towards the back, (for cruising), sometimes with the part of the back edge of the seated almost in the crack of your bum.

The keys to seated IMHO are:

• heels up, balls of the feet on the very front, or even better, balls of the feet on the front side edge of the pedals. (the feet are no longer a main weight pivot point, but can occasionally be used as secondary weight-balance leverage against the gyro. the main pivot now becomes your bum)
• knees spread, as if you were trying to make a wide triangle. this makes your overall base more stable.
• use your hands/arms actively. this applies in 2 ways:
  • stiff arm the front seat cushion as often as possible. when I transfer from standing to seated, I stiff arm the front cushion (2 fingers due to the small seat on KS18; whole palm on the larger Gotway Monster seat) to get instant pivot plane transfer while my bum is dropping to the seat as the main anchor. this 2-finger stiff arm also serves as an accelerator, and facilitator of standing back up again
  • even when seated, you can still use outstretched arms to facilitate hip-turn motion to emphasize turning (think many forget this). In difficult turn stretches, I'm outstretching one arm in front, other arm in back, torso slightly turned (ala skateboarding/snowboarding), which helps change the pivot direction to go side-to-side, as opposed to front-to-back when you're riding torso facing forward (ala ski position). this side-turning also applies to standing riding.
• move! (don't just sit in one position) my bum moves positions constantly for different maneuvers like more acceleration, braking, etc. I'll either slide my bum around, or use the stiff-arm method to instantly transfer pivot points, while I lift-scoot my bum to the desired new pivot point in the seat, where the re-seating of the bum becomes another instant pivot point change.

 

With either heel-to-pivot feet technique for regular standing riding, and/or seated technique, it's been a really long time since I've experienced foot pain that I couldn't make go away, no matter what model of EUC or size of pedals.

Edited July 7, 2018 by houseofjob

[Lutalo]

55 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

It's a skill like any other on the EUC's.  If you want foot relief, that is the only option that I found that works.  It was difficult in the beginning, but then you learn the proper technique for riding seated also learn transitions standing to sitting and vice versa.  It feels scary in the beginning.  Also I still really only use it when I can ride straight or if there is enough room for my current skill level.  It is definitely not as maneuverable seated as you are standing.  But it is probably because you are not used to it.

Also it isn't your height.  I've seen people who sit on much shorter wheels not design with seats.  I have no idea how they do it.  Give it a try if you want foot relief.  It is worth it when you figure it out.  Also I saw a video on it and this guy was big and I took tips from many places to get to my limited skill riding seated.  Sometimes I'm still not comfortable.

Some folks are really skilled like @houseofjob who I've learned from.

Here are a couple of videos including one featuring @houseofjob

 

Thanks for the info. I can ride seated, although I would say that my skill with it is limited mostly because of my discomfort with it in the situations that I often find myself riding.

Learning to ride upright felt impossible in the beginning, but since I was determined, my desire to learn propelled me past the pain threshold and I eventually felt comfortable riding. I imagine the experience was similar for most of us in the beginning.

When I learned to ride seated I suppose that I did not have the same level of desire so my weak determination carried me far enough in learning to assess that: 1. Using seated riding was more novelty than necessity. 2. I ride on DC streets a lot, and I can tell you I prefer to be standing when the inevitable hazard rears not ugly head.

Maybe if I used long straight country roads very often I would feel different. While I understand that it could be helpful in resting my feet on some of my journeys, I have found too many suitable substitutes for me to feel compelled as I did with standard riding. I ride recreationally and have found that a combination of alternating pressure from between legs and changing foot position to relieve pressure along with an occasional stop if necessary has helped tremendously.  However, perhaps I should reconsider my position on seated riding. I will certainly take it under consideration. 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Lutalo

[Lutalo]

21 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

With either heel-to-pivot feet technique for regular standing riding, and/or seated technique, it's been a really long time since I've experienced foot pain that I couldn't make go

Very true, I can ride substantial distances standing because of alternating pressure between legs and pivoting the alleviated foot to relieve pressure, including lifting it off the pedal entirely. However, perhaps I should reconsider throwing in some seated riding to enhance the experience.

[houseofjob]

16 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

When I learned to ride seated I suppose that I did not have the same level of desire so my weak determination carried me far enough in learning to assess that: 1. Using seated riding was more novelty than necessity.

FWIW, I originally had no desire to learn riding seated, as I had thought the same thing.

On my first seated EUC (KS18A), I actually never even rode seated, let alone use the included seat. It took my foray into the OG Gotway Monster and buying that damn expensive seat to push myself to learn, mainly to justify that expensive seat purchase *smh.

 

16 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

2. I ride on DC streets a lot, and I can tell you I prefer to be standing when the inevitable hazard rears not ugly head.

This is true: when sensing potential danger, I am always ready to stand up (and having my arm ready to press against the seat also facilitates this).

[eddiemoy]

1 minute ago, Lutalo said:

Very true, I can ride substantial distances standing because of alternating pressure between legs and pivoting the alleviated foot to relieve pressure, including lifting it off the pedal entirely. However, perhaps I should reconsider throwing in some seated riding to enhance the experience.

I know for me even a few seconds of seated helps.  Allows me to flex them providing needed circulation to them.  Yes, I remember in the beginning feeling it was impossible to learn EUC.  So much so that it took me 3 years from buying to finally putting in the effort to learn.  That is when I learned that I can learn anything and to recognize the impossible feeling as nothing more than a temporary feeling.  Since then I've learned countless things, like manual unicycling, motorcycling, long boarding, etc...  All with lots of persistence and work.  Now riding is like second nature.  I'm still going though the beginning stages of learning motorcycling so it is still very unnerving to ride.  But I recognize the feeling as temporary and I know all I need is more practice.  Then it will become second nature just like EUC riding.  

Same thing happen with all the skills in EUC, I remember backwards was scary as shit, now it is easy.  But I didn't get here without working at it.  Same with idling.  I will have to learn backwards on a manual unicycle, that scares me a lot, but I'm making slow but steady progress.  Just keep telling myself need more practice.

Good luck!

 

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

I know for me even a few seconds of seated helps.  Allows me to flex them providing needed circulation to them.  Yes, I remember in the beginning feeling it was impossible to learn EUC.  So much so that it took me 3 years from buying to finally putting in the effort to learn.  That is when I learned that I can learn anything and to recognize the impossible feeling as nothing more than a temporary feeling.  Since then I've learned countless things, like manual unicycling, motorcycling, long boarding, etc...  All with lots of persistence and work.  Now riding is like second nature.  I'm still going though the beginning stages of learning motorcycling so it is still very unnerving to ride.  But I recognize the feeling as temporary and I know all I need is more practice.  Then it will become second nature just like EUC riding.  

Same thing happen with all the skills in EUC, I remember backwards was scary as shit, now it is easy.  But I didn't get here without working at it.  Same with idling.  I will have to learn backwards on a manual unicycle, that scares me a lot, but I'm making slow but steady progress.  Just keep telling myself need more practice.

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And best of luck to you with all of the very interesting things you are learning. Motorcycling is one of the most exciting things that I have ever learned. Although I do not currently own a bike; sold my Hyabusa last year. I have been riding for years. I can attest that there are very few experiences that come close to 200 mph on two wheels. Hyper Liter bikes are my favorite, but I like all bikes. My current dream bike is the Lightning LS 218. So yeah. Best of luck with the motorcycling. My next mission is flight. I hope you come to love motorcycling as much as I.

[eddiemoy]

5 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

And best of luck to you with all of the very interesting things you are learning. Motorcycling is one of the most exciting things that I have ever learned. Although I do not currently own a bike; sold my Hyabusa last year. I have been riding for years. I can attest that there are very few experiences that come close to 200 mph on two wheels. Hyper Liter bikes are my favorite, but I like all bikes. My current dream bike is the Lightning LS 218. So yeah. Best of luck with the motorcycling. My next mission is flight. I hope you come to love motorcycling as much as I.

I know the lightning well, it won the pike peak last year.  amazing electric bike.  first time an electric won.  i'm on a naked bike, working up the courage to get even up to highway speeds of 80mph.  LOL, my yamaha mt07 can only go about 140mph or so i think.  not going to hit that any time soon.

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

FWIW, I originally had no desire to learn riding seated, as I had thought the same thing.

On my first seated EUC (KS18A), I actually never even rode seated, let alone use the included seat. It took my foray into the OG Gotway Monster and buying that damn expensive seat to push myself to learn, mainly to justify that expensive seat purchase *smh.

 

This is true: when sensing potential danger, I am always ready to stand up (and having my arm ready to press against the seat also facilitates this).

I greatly appreciate you sharing your experiences with seated riding. I haven't tried it in so long I probably need to practice before trying it. 

Not sure that even my superb reflexes and nerves of steel could handle seated riding on DC streets, but exploring some of the paved trails running through the city might be lovely. ??.

[Lutalo]

4 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

I know the lightning well, it won the pike peak last year.  amazing electric bike.  first time an electric won.  i'm on a naked bike, working up the courage to get even up to highway speeds of 80mph.  LOL, my yamaha mt07 can only go about 140mph or so i think.  not going to hit that any time soon.

Dude, you will get there, soon 80 will feel like 40. I am definitely Looking forward to one day owning a Lightning. It would be my first electric. And how crazy is the idea that an electric is the most badass bike on the planet. I love it.

[Fastmike]

5 hours ago, Lutalo said:

And best of luck to you with all of the very interesting things you are learning. Motorcycling is one of the most exciting things that I have ever learned. Although I do not currently own a bike; sold my Hyabusa last year. I have been riding for years. I can attest that there are very few experiences that come close to 200 mph on two wheels. Hyper Liter bikes are my favorite, but I like all bikes. My current dream bike is the Lightning LS 218. So yeah. Best of luck with the motorcycling. My next mission is flight. I hope you come to love motorcycling as much as I.

Remind me old days! I have been using a lot of bikes (Kawa, Suzuki, Yamaha, and even a BMW...) but the Hayabusa has been the best ever! Even my last Zx12R could not compete. The Gsx engine was just magic! That torque... even close to 200, just accelerating and you can still feel it!   ?

But after about 15 crashes on the road, never my fault, and a bad car crash, I had to stop motorbike... so now enjoy my Vette, and EUC will be another kind of enjoyable 'toy' that I hope safe enough.   

Edited July 7, 2018 by Fastmike

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, Fastmike said:

Remind me old days! I have been using a lot of bikes (Kawa, Suzuki, Yamaha, and even a BMW...) but the Hayabusa has been the best ever! Even my last Zx12R could not compete. The Gsx engine was just magic! That torque... even close to 200, just accelerating and you can still feel it!   ?

But after about 15 crashes on the road, never my fault, and a bad car crash, I had to stop motorbike... so now enjoy my Vette, and EUC will be another kind of enjoyable 'toy' that I hope safe enough.   

I hear you. I know that there are other hyper bikes out there now. The 1,000cc bikes produce incredible speed these days and Kawi is putting out some crazy stuff in the Ninja 1400ZR and the H2, but I am a Busa boy from the cradle to the grave; still the fastest and most beautiful production bike ever, and Popular Science's number one motorcycle marvel of all time (so far/ I think the all electric Lightning LS 218 could take that title). I sold my baby last year, and didn't buy another because I am waiting patiently for the third gen Busa to return to the throne and end the terrible reign of the Kawi Ninja 14ZR, and the H2. If Suzi doesn't do a third gen I will take it as omen that it is time to end my relationship with combustibles and point my sights toward the Lightning LS 218. ??

[that0n3guy]

Well, I out-leaned my 18l today.  I have a "rounded curb" from the street into my driveway (i'll take a pictures sometime) and went up it pretty slow.   Usually I hit it with more speed but this time I hit it slow.  It caused me to lean forward more than I was comfortable with but I decided to "trust the machine."   In under 15ft, I went from 2-3mph to the alert "please decelerate" (or whatever it says).   

I was still falling forward and could tell it didn't have enough juice get back under me, so I aimed for the grass next to my house and bailed.   My grass is pretty fluffy so I barely felt it, but it was still annoying that I can outlean it going up a simple incline at low speeds.    After doing it on my ks14c, I was hoping the v10f and 18l have enough torque.

I've outleaned the v10f (on a grass hill very slow), the ks14c on the same curb, and now the 18L.   I really think that these things aren't made for 200lb's :).

Anyone else have this problem? 

[that0n3guy]

Also, update from my last 2 rides:

• 18l is more stable at higher speeds than v10f - I hit 40kph all the time on the 18l riding in the same places I would usually start topping out at 35kph on the v10f (just because of how comfortable I was at those speeds on the v10f).   On the 18l, you don't notice how fast you're going.   On the v10f I feel like I had to really try (hard forward lean) to hit 40kph and maintain that speed on flats.
• I think the v10f has more torque at low speed than the 18l
• The auto-shutoff handle on the 18l sucks, never works when you want it too... on the plus side though, it doesn't accidentally trigger either (firmware 1.0.7).   I'll re-calibrate it again, maybe I lifted it too fast making it very insensitive.

 

[Lutalo]

2 hours ago, that0n3guy said:

Also, update from my last 2 rides:

• 18l is more stable at higher speeds than v10f - I hit 40kph all the time on the 18l riding in the same places I would usually start topping out at 35kph on the v10f (just because of how comfortable I was at those speeds on the v10f).   On the 18l, you don't notice how fast you're going.   On the v10f I feel like I had to really try (hard forward lean) to hit 40kph and maintain that speed on flats.
• I think the v10f has more torque at low speed than the 18l
• The auto-shutoff handle on the 18l sucks, never works when you want it too... on the plus side though, it doesn't accidentally trigger either (firmware 1.0.7).   I'll re-calibrate it again, maybe I lifted it too fast making it very insensitive.

 

Got an 18L en route to the household. Should arrive in approximately a couple of weeks. I have heard that the wheel shut off feature can be turned off in the app. Since I rarely actually lift my wheels, I feel that I am on the page where I don't want to be bothered with finicky sensors. I think that KS will address it, but until then I plan to just turn it off (if I actually can).

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, that0n3guy said:

Well, I out-leaned my 18l today. 

Thank goodness you’re ok. I’m 200lbs too, and the fear of what happened to you makes me hop even for small obstacles. For a good reason it seems.

 

[Unventor]

22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Thank goodness you’re ok. I’m 200lbs too, and the fear of what happened to you makes me hop even for small obstacles. For a good reason it seems.

 

Very nice video. Keep the posts coming ? so I can learn not to end up in another accident, or atleast be prepared if it should happen.

[Fastmike]

7 hours ago, that0n3guy said:

Also, update from my last 2 rides:

• 18l is more stable at higher speeds than v10f - I hit 40kph all the time on the 18l riding in the same places I would usually start topping out at 35kph on the v10f (just because of how comfortable I was at those speeds on the v10f).   On the 18l, you don't notice how fast you're going.   On the v10f I feel like I had to really try (hard forward lean) to hit 40kph and maintain that speed on flats.
• I think the v10f has more torque at low speed than the 18l
• The auto-shutoff handle on the 18l sucks, never works when you want it too... on the plus side though, it doesn't accidentally trigger either (firmware 1.0.7).   I'll re-calibrate it again, maybe I lifted it too fast making it very insensitive.

 

It seems to me that some KS18L riders complains that speedo is not really accurate so please verify that when KS app says you are hitting 40kph, you are really at 40 and not 35-36.  ?

[that0n3guy]

That's a good point.  I'll find a GPS app.  I heard the same for inmotion's app too though.

[Stan Onymous]

On 6/13/2018 at 12:19 AM, houseofjob said:

main reason: speed throttling: V10F currently speed throttles after ~70% battery. You only achieve 25mph at the upper 70/80-to-100% battery, then it dips for the majority in the 22mph range. The KS18L should be a solid 50kph / 31mph for the majority of the battery. InMotion really should just state the V10F speed max as 22mph+. This could possibly be fixed with a firmware, but unlikely as we never saw the V5F+ FW bump from 15 to 16-17mph proposed early.

I found 24.17mph with 46% power on my V10F using the original firmware 1.07. It was still at 22 mph at 26% when I finished.

So I am not sure what happened. I wrote about it in my review in the Inmotion section. 

[Mono]

On 7/7/2018 at 12:18 PM, Fastmike said:

But after about 15 crashes on the road, never my fault,

that would make me think. I had a much fewer crashes and it was always my fault.

[Mono]

On 7/8/2018 at 4:06 AM, that0n3guy said:

Anyone else have this problem? 

Yes. Bending the knees quickly(!) and profoundly, thereby lowering your center of gravity by at least 10-15cm without leaning the upper body further forward momentarily relieves the wheel and let it catch up under you. This should solve the problem.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Mono