Ninebot One Z10 eWheels.com Demo: NYC-Style

[houseofjob]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

So the Z10 uses 14-MOSFETs   Let's hear from all the people that keep saying Gotway should use better engineering and get away from using 12-MOSFETs. Or maybe all of the MOSFETs aren't for the drive electronics?

Well, the rumor is (not sure if true or not) that Ninebot engineers tore apart at least an MTen3 to figure out how they packed so much power in such a tiny wheel. 

BTW, when I hear MOSFeT, I always think: 

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

2 hours ago, joku said:

Is screwing the power wires better than soldering? I want to know what you guys have seen that makes this better

People were finding that the wiring got so hot that the solder melted from the control board and released the motor wire during strenuous wheel activity.    We're talking about you, @EUC Extreme.  It seems like junctions where the conductivity / resistance changes tend to get warm and then hot even to the point of melting connector housings.

I think when it comes to mission critical areas and high current temperatures, it's safer to go to a physical linkage rather than rely on solder which has a melting point to keep electrons moving.  With the board mounts, I bet they are physically crimped onto the board itself and the wire connector screwed onto it.  That hopefully eliminates the chance of detachment on a device that does not have much of a suspension to it and experiences lots of vibration.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[joku]

That's pretty crazy if it's getting hot enough to melt solder. I say lower the gauge to something that can handle the current. If it's that hot, components will underperform or even burn

Edited June 18, 2018 by joku

[Marty Backe]

45 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

People were finding that the wiring got so hot that the solder melted from the control board and released the motor wire during strenuous wheel activity.    We're talking about you, @EUC Extreme.  It seems like junctions where the conductivity changes tend to get warm and then hot even to the point of melting connector housings.

I think when it comes to mission critical areas and high current temperatures, it's safer to go to a physical linkage rather than rely on solder which has a melting point to keep electrons moving.  With the board mounts, I bet they are physically crimped onto the board itself and the wire connector screwed onto it.  That hopefully eliminates the chance of detachment on a device that does not have much of a suspension to it and experiences lots of vibration.

I witnessed it happen to @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" when he fried his Monster while racing me up a hill. One of the motor wires came out of the circuit board because of the heat. As of the MSuper X this should no longer be a possibility with Gotway.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Even Marty had a piece of nickel that they used to join battery terminals melt due to the high current rushing through it when he got it stuck in a turnstile.  There was one thin piece acting as the ground strip for all those cells...

 

[joku]

Haha that's not enough nickel to support more than 20amps continuous. I'm not surprised 

[EUC Extreme]

Users, forgive them. Because they do not know what they are doing.

?

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

On 6/15/2018 at 12:38 PM, houseofjob said:

Yeah, I always try to do lift tests smoothly, but this was the result over and over.

Dunno if it's because of the heaviness combined with me holding a camera in the other hand, or just the sheer power of the Z (or my poor technique!).

TBF, on any wheel, I’m terrible at the technique of holding and lifting up the wheel right at the balanced point where it doesn’t spin.

Derp, don't know why this didn't dawn on me earlier, but it's likely due to the forward cant angle of the shell body and handle that prevents one from lifting up the wheel while keeping the shell level.  It wants to tilt up so the wheel zooms up in reverse.  If the handle was more centered over the axle it would be easier to balance, but instead with it being forward there's no way to lift it evenly.  Maybe grabbing it near the back of the handle?

Even with the Ninebot One E+'s weird tilt up handle you can sort of lift it in the middle of the handle and try to keep the pedals level.  With this Z it's probably impossible to do without wrist strength of steel so the handle cut off is crucial.  Or just turn it off before picking up.

[Boogieman]

On 6/10/2018 at 6:02 AM, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Any idea of what Ninebot was mentioning about turning assist?  Does it angle the pedals up or increase speed a bit in turns or something?  Maybe with the low, heavier, centrally positioned mass with batteries in the hub area and larger rotating mass of the spinning tire that might make it more stable in the middle and difficult to turn whereas with batteries more on the sides the extra mass there helps?  Or it could mainly be the heavy tire like a big gyroscope is harder to tilt versus a skinny, lighter one.

It sounds like the Ninebot Z is more like a Harley than a sportbike.  We don't see too many Harley's tearing it up at the race track slaloms.  Are you doing a body lean, CoG weight transfer, upper twist and arm extension to help with the higher speed turns?  On the Tesla I've been trying to add arm repositioning to help manage high speed curves.  I'll bring up my arm on the side I'm turning towards and trail my other arm back while crouching down a bit almost as if I'm trying to skim the ground  with the extended hand.  Kinda like these people around the curves...

 

Awesome video.  Maybe try to knee scrape with a EUC like on a motor bike. Time to bring out the titanium screw prepped sliders again to sparkle lol

[Boogieman]

On 6/18/2018 at 11:27 PM, houseofjob said:

 

 Hehe,  my ninebot mini plus does the exact same thing.  Stand up,  beeps a while.. then falls down on his nose ?

[Boogieman]

On 6/15/2018 at 6:54 PM, houseofjob said:

Z10 No Load Lift Speed Test:

 

When i see those videos i realize how similar the behavior of their eucs is to their mini segways. I hope they are more careful with fw changes here than on the minis as there have been soon dangerous changes on the minis new FWs. My mini spins up like that sometimes even when wheels are still at lift,  but much less brutal of  course

[houseofjob]

 

[Kollin]

On 6/15/2018 at 3:51 AM, houseofjob said:

Towards the end, I discovered a technique for high speed turning that I have to perfect when I finally get my actual copy of the Z, where I shift and throw my butt towards the turn direction, as if I were trying to touch my butt to the ground. If this were motocross, we would climb over the opposite bike body side of the turn and dip the knee of the turn-side leg to the ground, but since we are not riding in that position, I think it becomes trying to touch your butt to the ground (like as if you were constipated(?)). Since the Z is so resistant to minor turns, you can really throw your weight around in a way that would make you fall on a normal EUC.

 

On 6/15/2018 at 10:04 AM, Turbocharged said:

I think I know what you meant. I ride the same way on Zs. I usually like to keep a as wide as possible stance, that leaves enough room between my legs for quick turning or micro adjustments. The way I ride Z, I always put more weight on my outside foot (opposite side to where I am turning) turn my body a little bit towards the opposite too, that makes "sitting into the corner" easier, I guess that is very similar to what you described as to touch your butt to the ground. It's somewhat similar to turning when I ski

I find this very interesting when I haven´t seen this way of riding when looking at videos of other EUC´s. I´m skiing a lot and now I´m looking
at buying a EUC and this makes me really inspired!

I was looking at the KS18L which have the 2.5 inch tier, will that behave similar when carving you think?

 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Kollin said:

I was looking at the KS18L which have the 2.5 inch tier, will that behave similar when carving you think?

Nope. The 4.1" in the Z10 is told being something completely in it's own class, in good and bad. No other EUC has a feel that seems comes even close. Surprisingly, while the Msuper X has the second widest tire at 3.0", no-one has reported Z-like behavior in carving or hi-speed turns.

[US69]

On 6/23/2018 at 4:23 AM, Boogieman said:

When i see those videos i realize how similar the behavior of their eucs is to their mini segways. I hope they are more careful with fw changes here than on the minis as there have been soon dangerous changes on the minis new FWs. My mini spins up like that sometimes even when wheels are still at lift,  but much less brutal of  course

I am always wondering when people talk of great Ninebot quality?

There have been the firmware issues with the one e plus, with the mini pro and what not....

There has been the One P desaster.....

What concerns me the most, is that the 9b One E plus battery BMS did NOT even have a balancing function for its 2x15seriell battery! Thats a fact....confirmed by battery experts/battery builders.

I dont now if it is/was the same for  the One S1/2 series...but i have seen sooo much people with problems/complains about the battery packs and cell voltage differing and so on...that i am pretty sure that here also no balancing is on the BMS.

So i hope they changed that for the Z series BMS....if not would be a total bummer!

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, Kollin said:

I find this very interesting when I haven´t seen this way of riding when looking at videos of other EUC´s.

EUC is still a new 'sport' and many adopters do not come from skiing/boarding backgrounds, so they do not have the muscle memory / technique / knowledge. Plus, there is no one to teach them this for specifically EUC.

I can tell you as an advanced (not expert) skier of going on ~30 years, the parallels to skiing technique are uncanny on EUC, as you are in the same relative front-facing body position. Also note, that, unlike skiing, on EUC, you are not bound by a set foot position (albeit, skis have some pivoting allowable since they are detached, unlike a snowboard), they can face any which direction you want them to, all while your upper torso faces the 'downhill' / forward progression-facing position, just as in skiing.

So, this allows you to actually switch back and forth to a snowboard position mid-ride on-the-fly, opening even more real world, applicable technique possibilities!

 

4 hours ago, Kollin said:

I was looking at the KS18L which have the 2.5 inch tier, will that behave similar when carving you think?

Think of the Z as fat skis. You lose some simplicity in ease of turning, but those same turns are not impossible, you just need more technique and effort.

The KS18L is more akin to a medium-to-medium-long-length, all-around parabolic ski, because the thinner 2.5" wide tire will (for lack of a better expression) "turn more for you".

You probably get the point that, the thinner you go, the better carving will be.

Out of all the many many EUC's of all brands I've owned and tried on group rides, the InMotion V5F+ had to have been the all-time best carver, with the old EUC standard 2.125", combined with a natural inclination in the motor-pedal action to carve. But, conversely, the V5F+ was too slow, even for its time, underpowered for today's standards, plus thinner tires means less surface area to absorb shock on bumps, especially since the only shock-absorbing element of an EUC is the tire + your bent knees (IMHO 2.5" is the bare minimum for proper shock absorption before you start compromising in that area by going thinner).

 

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Surprisingly, while the Msuper X has the second widest tire at 3.0", no-one has reported Z-like behavior in carving or hi-speed turns.

Well, .... I think from the reports and videos, we've heard a lot of "high pedals" and "tank"-like ride comments.

The new 3" wide of the MSuperX is not a new experience / archetype BTW, we've already seen it with the Monster (which is classified as 3" wide sometimes), and, quite amusingly, the 10" MTen3!

Out of my Z10 experience, I am absolutely convinced that tire width, and not diameter, is the determiner of difficulty level in maneuverability.

Edited July 1, 2018 by houseofjob

[Kollin]

Big thank you for a really good and instructive answer! I´ve been trying to figure out as much as possible regarding the similarities to skiing (beacause I can
definitely see the similarities) the last month to get a suitable wheel

4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Also note, that, unlike skiing, on EUC, you are not bound by a set foot position (albeit, skis have some pivoting allowable since they are detached, unlike a snowboard), they can face any which direction you want them to, all while your upper torso faces the 'downhill' / forward progression-facing position, just as in skiing.

So, this allows you to actually switch back and forth to a snowboard position mid-ride on-the-fly, opening even more real world, applicable technique possibilities!

I understand this isn´t super easy but it sounds fantastic and really cool. I have been Telemarking for +20 years so I can to some point understand the feeling
of not beeing totally set for the foot position, and here you are eaven more free... I just have to try  (I can hear my body cry now )

4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Think of the Z as fat skis. You lose some simplicity in ease of turning, but those same turns are not impossible, you just need more technique and effort.

 The KS18L is more akin to a medium-to-medium-long-length, all-around parabolic ski, because the thinner 2.5" wide tire will (for lack of a better expression) "turn more for you".

You probably get the point that, the thinner you go, the better carving will be.

On 6/15/2018 at 3:51 AM, houseofjob said:

Since the Z is so resistant to minor turns, you can really throw your weight around in a way that would make you fall on a normal EUC.

Ok, so it would be more towards long carving turns in higher speed with the Z? In what speed do you feel you get the best and nicest turns?

With the KS18L, could you use the same "ski like" technique twisting your hips (or "touch your butt to the ground") but do it more gentle?

If you can push it and kind of "hang" on the wheel with the Z to prolonge the turn (because it want´s to straighten up) like when you doing a long nice carving
turn in soft or powder snow I need this wheel  For me, narrow and quick carving turns doesn´t necessarily mean better but I understand it´s easier and maybe
easier for me to learn  

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, Kollin said:

Big thank you for a really good and instructive answer!

Sure thing~

 

4 hours ago, Kollin said:

I have been Telemarking for +20 years so I can to some point understand the feeling
of not beeing totally set for the foot position, and here you are eaven more free... I just have to try  (I can hear my body cry now )

Argh, totally forgot about Telemark. Yes, it's that kind of freedom (I'm guessing, since I've never tried, only seen), but extending beyond the front-to-back pivot plane (infinite pivot planes!).

 

4 hours ago, Kollin said:

Ok, so it would be more towards long carving turns in higher speed with the Z? In what speed do you feel you get the best and nicest turns?

Yes, I'm inclined to believe so, but being a whole new class of EUC, I need much more time than the 1 test week I had to mess around and stumble into a technique to unlock what I think the Z can truly do (for carving).

In the end, if you think about a one-wheel unicycle, the contact patch is a singular surface area of the tire against the road, regardless of size, which is the ultimate for carving / turns, as then, all you're limited by is pivoting the weight and shell physics of the body itself to turn in all 180-360 degrees (unlike a 2-wheeled bicycle or 4-wheeled car, etc, all much more limited in turning radius by comparison).

At the end of the Z demo week, the best and nicest turns were most definitely at lower speeds up to maybe 22mph(?). Higher speeds required me to do the butt/back-lean/throwing techniques, etc, to achieve the same degree of carving.

 

4 hours ago, Kollin said:

With the KS18L, could you use the same "ski like" technique twisting your hips (or "touch your butt to the ground") but do it more gentle?

If you can push it and kind of "hang" on the wheel with the Z to prolonge the turn (because it want´s to straighten up) like when you doing a long nice carving
turn in soft or powder snow I need this wheel  For me, narrow and quick carving turns doesn´t necessarily mean better but I understand it´s easier and maybe
easier for me to learn  

Yes, but you can't throw your weight/butt/back around nearly as hard, as the ride feel of the body of the KS-18L to me felt much lighter weight than the Z (by comparison). The action is more hip sway, not unlike moguls IMO.

This question actually reminds me of how, after beginning on my first wheel (16" Ninebot One E+), my second-ever wheel, the tall body KS-18A, forced me to learn (thankfully) a lot of hip-shifting techniques for carving that you don't necessarily need to use on the smaller, circular EUC's (16" and under), but when you do, you achieve almost instantaneous, sharper degrees of carving, to the point of 180 turning in place with some models.

 

4 hours ago, Kollin said:

If you can push it and kind of "hang" on the wheel with the Z to prolonge the turn (because it want´s to straighten up) like when you doing a long nice carving
turn in soft or powder snow I need this wheel  For me, narrow and quick carving turns doesn´t necessarily mean better but I understand it´s easier and maybe
easier for me to learn  

Yes, I think this is exactly what it is. 

When I ski (I'm sure you know this), I stick harder my outside turn ski, that full leg fully straight and extended and slightly trailing, while my turn-side ski leg is just there for balance basically, letting me really dig the inner blade of the outside turn ski into the snow/ice, so I can really carve and ride that edge.

This is the technique I realize now I was subconsciously applying when high speed turning on the Z towards the end of the demo.

The only caveat to this is that when you really stick and lean on that outside turn pedal / "ski", unfortunately the body of the Z gets in the way a bit, hitting the shin (the converse for skiing is that there is nothing between your legs to hit), so I rode with my feet wider, away from the body, so I could achieve a sharper angle to not hit the body. Riding this way really requires good griptape-ing of the pedals, which the stock demo Z10 pedals lacked, hence why I purchased and applied a role of skateboard griptape to those pedals.

Edited July 2, 2018 by houseofjob

[stephen]

chocch tech posted his ride with the z10 that dude can ride ?

 

[RogerU]

On 6/19/2018 at 5:20 AM, houseofjob said:

I guess screwing in is akin to crimping(?) Not sure.

I know my old KS-18A used a similar screw-in method for the motor wires, until they moved to MT60 connectors I believe (don't quote me on that).

The military always crimp. Less chance of joint failure apparently.