Cage of Death / Loop de Loop

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Here's a theoretical question to exercise the ol' brain muscles.

If it were possible to completely disable the 45-60° tilt shutoff feature in firmware, would it be possible for a EUC rider to zoom around a Cage of Death like circus performers do on motorcycles?  What happens if a powered up EUC is flipped upside down quickly?  Does the fore/aft stabilization continue to function?  Anyone want to lift up while level their Mten3 and flip it sideways and upside down to see what it does?  Leaning forwards higher up would be an issue I think while zooming around in a sphere.

Is it possible for a EUC to ride around a corkscrew spiral ramp?   I know a loop de loop is out of the question, but how about a tunnel?  One could ride side to side until there is enough momentum to carry the wheel over the top maybe?

 

[mrelwood]

No, it wouldn’t be possible. Going directly into a loop-de-loop would brake the wheel into halt before you reach the first 90• of a circle.

Going in a tunnel, if the rider deviates from the direction of the tunnel only very little, one would be able to get up pretty high up the wall. But as soon as the EUC turns sideways past 90•, wild things would happen. The specifics are up to how the sensor and the firmware are programmed. Likely one would need to tilt backwards to get acceleration, which would completely destroy any form of balancing, even without the rider. I have to guess no for this also.

[Alien Rides]

But with the right manufacturing and programming, with this specific use-case in mind, surely it would be possible?

Anyway I'm stupid enough to try it either way, sign me up! ?

 

[mrelwood]

12 minutes ago, Kevin Grandon said:

But with the right manufacturing and programming, with this specific use-case in mind, surely it would be possible?

The tunnel, I think might be programmable. Might need additional sensors though. Straight loop-de-loop? Not possible I think.

[Alien Rides]

Just now, mrelwood said:

Straight loop-de-loop? No. 

Why not? What if I had 3-4 gyros that the main board could cycle through during a rotation? (I'm thinking engineering an EUC specifically for this use-case)

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Okay @noisycarlos, go back to that storm drain to test our theories! 

1 hour ago, Kevin Grandon said:

Why not? What if I had 3-4 gyros that the main board could cycle through during a rotation? (I'm thinking engineering an EUC specifically for this use-case)

Maybe if instead of gyro based balance, a laser fore and aft distance to ground sensor would work.  Tilt forwards and the front distance is shorter so drive the wheel forwards to keep the shell and rider upright.   Enough back and forth pendulums might develop enough momentum to complete the loop? 

For the level tunnel, maybe think of it this way.  I am the wheel.  I am holding a ruler level to the ground (x axis) .  I am moving forwards, but I keep the ruler level in the forwards and backwards direction.  I don't care if I rotate the ruler along the z axis as long as it is level in the x axis so I can walk forwards and side to side.  If I had gravity shoes I could walk up the sides of the tunnel and top while keeping the ruler balanced.  As long as the x axis doesn't deviate from zero I can run around it like an axle. 

Theoretically shouldn't the wheel behave the same way?  Now with enough speed and side to side slaloming,  I think one could create enough momentum to loop over the top of a tunnel possibly. 

 

 

[Demargon]

if the speed can overcome the gravity making the rider go upside down thanks to the centrifugal force. why the gyroscope will eludes that centrifugal force? I think is possible

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Onto a rotating space station like in "2001: A Space Odyssey."  With centrifugal force simulating gravity, would our wheels function like normal?

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

 Maybe if instead of gyro based balance, a laser fore and aft distance to ground sensor would work.  Tilt forwards and the front distance is shorter so drive the wheel forwards to keep the shell and rider upright.

Uphills (and any surface irregularities) in every other scenario would suck though... Riding such a wheel would be quite a challenge I think.

1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

For the level tunnel, maybe think of it this way.  I am the wheel.  I am holding a ruler level to the ground (x axis) .  I am moving forwards, but I keep the ruler level in the forwards and backwards direction.  I don't care if I rotate the ruler along the z axis as long as it is level in the x axis so I can walk forwards and side to side.  If I had gravity shoes I could walk up the sides of the tunnel and top while keeping the ruler balanced.  As long as the x axis doesn't deviate from zero I can run around it like an axle. 

Theoretically shouldn't the wheel behave the same way? 

If we are talking about current wheels (with the tilt switch-off disengaged), no, since the ruler has to be tilted in order to balance.

Look at the tunnel from the side so that the tunnel goes from left to right, and the rider is travelling in the tunnel from left to right. When the rider is on the ground, rotating the wheel clockwise accelerates. When the rider is upside down, acceleration would mean a counter-clockwise motion.

If the sensors work like a regular bubble level, normally when accelerating, the bubble goes backwards. When upside down, the bubble would go forwards during acceleration. That’s why additional sensors (or atleast additional programming) would be needed, so the wheel could switch to a correct mode when riding higher on the wall.

 

[Demargon]

52 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Onto a rotating space station like in "2001: A Space Odyssey."  With centrifugal force simulating gravity, would our wheels function like normal?

why not? of the gravity are the only one force governing our euc the centrifugal force can be enough to ride it no matter if is upside down or not

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Demargon said:

if the speed can overcome the gravity making the rider go upside down thanks to the centrifugal force. why the gyroscope will eludes that centrifugal force? I think is possible

I understand that the gravity sensor in a gyro is so light that the centrifugal force is very tiny compared to a 100kg rider+wheel combo. It’s not a glass half full of water.

Has anybody tried to take photos in a roller coaster with a smartphone that rotates the camera to be always upright? I’m pretty sure the camera does flip when upside down.

1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Onto a rotating space station like in "2001: A Space Odyssey."  With centrifugal force simulating gravity, would our wheels function like normal?

Good question! Again, I don’t think so. I believe the gyro sensor is almost immune to centrifugal force, and works based on gravity alone.

Edit: If the gyro would react to centrifugal force, we actually wouldn’t have to disable the tilt turn-off feature, as the wheel wouldn’t know that it is upside down anyway.

If an EUC like that would ride back and forth in a skate ramp, it wouldn’t stay upright, as the centrifugal force would make it think that it is on a level ground all the time. This is the one test we can do! (And we already know what happens.)

[Demargon]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I understand that the gravity sensor in a gyro is so light that the centrifugal force is very tiny compared to a 100kg...

Not true because the gravity (and the centrifugal) force didn't diference about weight, if something have mass is atracted (or repelled) by the gravity (or the centrifugal) force. No matters if is a feather or a wrecking ball.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

If an EUC like that would ride back and forth in a skate ramp, it wouldn’t stay upright

Only true in the curved sahpes of the track where the centrifugal forces take action, and false for the straight parts were the centrifugal force doesn't exist

[Dancer]

 

 

[kasenutty]

I think it's scientifically possible for sure. 

[ir_fuel]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Has anybody tried to take photos in a roller coaster with a smartphone that rotates the camera to be always upright? I’m pretty sure the camera does flip when upside down.

I can confirm the camera image will turn (at least on the phones I tested). I saw this behavior in a race car when cornering at high g's.

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, Demargon said:

Not true because the gravity (and the centrifugal) force didn't diference about weight, if something have mass is atracted (or repelled) by the gravity (or the centrifugal) force. No matters if is a feather or a wrecking ball.

Centrifugal and gravitational forces are dependent of weight, gravitational acceleration isn’t. Holding a feather vs bowling ball on a fast merry-go-round requires very different amounts of force to overcome the centrifugal force. If the sensors work as I understand them to, the centrifugal force would have to overcome the force of the magnets that hold the gyro sensor.

8 hours ago, Demargon said:

Only true in the curved sahpes of the track where the centrifugal forces take action, and false for the straight parts were the centrifugal force doesn't exist

Exactly. Point being that a current EUC does stay upright in the curved sections, despite the centrifugal force.

2 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

I can confirm the camera image will turn (at least on the phones I tested). I saw this behavior in a race car when cornering at high g's.

This also confirms that centrifugal force does not affect the gyro sensor. Atleast not enough for it to be fooled when riding a loop-de-loop or a 360• loop in a tunnel.