Kingsong KS18L, will it Marty or Rehab or not?

[Kael]

7 hours ago, koto said:

I did a very short and therefore incomplete test of the KS-18L in Paris.

• It's very easy to accelerate. There are some Tesla feelings.
• You can drive it really  naturally (like Tesla. I think Msuper3 is a little bit un-natural to drive)
• The maneuverability is very good. Really surprising for me. I'm familiar with a Msuper3 820Wh and I love my Msuper3 but this KS-18L is really interesting.
• I'm not familiar with kingsong's wheel behaviour. I have 2 gotways. Anyway, I feel comfortable on this wheel. 

I'm sorry I cannot tell you more. it was a very short test.

 

With how solid the 16S was, I had a feeling the 18L would be one the best of this new batch.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Thanks, the in-natural feeling you get from the Msuper is because it is designed wrong.  So your brain has to do extra to get it to work properly.  I think it has to do with the unusual weight distribution.  Top heavy. King songs don’t have this design flaw.  Plus the stance of the new msuper’s Is also in-naturally wide.  But funny not all gotway is like this.  I had chance to ride the Tesla and it was great.  

Cant wait for Jason to fix the demo and send it up here to NY for a group test.

It's so funny how you feel that the MSuper is unnatural yet I think the KS18S is unnatural 

[Adumb]

19 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's so funny how you feel that the MSuper is unnatural yet I think the KS18S is unnatural 

Agreed. I much prefer the wider wheels, they just feel natural, good, while the thinner wheels like ks18 or V10 feel a bit off to me. Maybe it is because I am so tall hah or maybe just preference, but I'm glad there's a bunch of different wheels out there making finding a natural/comfortable ride easy. My wife just bought a ks16s in NYC this weekend so maybe I will grow accustomed to the ride. I hope so since I want to but a ks18l later this year. 

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

It's so funny how you feel that the MSuper is unnatural yet I think the KS18S is unnatural 

IMO, the KS18S is not top heavy.  It is slim and has none of the design issue of the msuper.

[koto]

 

19 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Thanks, the in-natural feeling you get from the Msuper is because it is designed wrong.  So your brain has to do extra to get it to work properly.  I think it has to do with the unusual weight distribution.  Top heavy. King songs don’t have this design flaw.  Plus the stance of the new msuper’s Is also in-naturally wide.  But funny not all gotway is like this.  I had chance to ride the Tesla and it was great.  

Cant wait for Jason to fix the demo and send it up here to NY for a group test.

Anyway, for the Msuper3, if you are familiar with its behaviour, on fast turn it's really funy. You can  turn like "speed ice skaters" (I don't know how to day that in english). It is just another way of "driving". For beginners, the Msuper3 stay straight easily which is a good thing for the first hours learning time. That also makes the Musper3 a little bit more physical to ride but it is so efficient... Anyway, let's stay with the KS-18L.

[koto]

10 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

IMO, the KS18S is not top heavy.  It is slim and has none of the design issue of the msuper.

I think you will enjoy the KS-18L. The riding feeling  is closer to Tesla than Msuper3. Anyway, don't forget it does not have the gotway glide. Of course, it is a Kingsong ?

[mrelwood]

20 minutes ago, koto said:

gotway glide

Did the old Msuper v3 have ”The Gotway Glide”? Haven’t tried newer Gotways, but I’m interested in knowing how they feel in comparison.

[Kens]

1 hour ago, koto said:

I think you will enjoy the KS-18L. The riding feeling  is closer to Tesla than Msuper3. Anyway, don't forget it does not have the gotway glide. Of course, it is a Kingsong ?

What is a "Gotway glide"? ?

[koto]

25 minutes ago, Kens said:

What is a "Gotway glide"? ?

Perhaps just an clumsy expression from someone who does not speak english very well. It's about the feeling you have when you ride a gotway wheel. Everything seem to be smooth, comfortable, cool, etc...

[Kens]

17 minutes ago, koto said:

Perhaps just an clumsy expression from someone who does not speak english very well. It's about the feeling you have when you ride a gotway wheel. Everything seem to be smooth, comfortable, cool, etc...

So you mean Rockwheel is not smooth, InMotion is not comfortable and SoloWheel is not cool? ? jk

[Rob Valley]

Russian Translated page of a peek inside the KS18L

 

[ED209]

10 minutes ago, Rob Valley said:

Russian Translated page of a peek inside the KS18L

 

Excellent find!

[meepmeepmayer]

Gotta love the Ecodrift guys and their teardowns!

Wheel looks great, they managed to deal with the too-big-for-a-round-design issue quite well.

[Kens]

2 hours ago, Rob Valley said:

Russian Translated page of a peek inside the KS18L

 

The wheels looks great in photos! 

However few concern: I dislike the mudflap. Looks like one floppy dog's ear. Msuper X mudguard looks the best. Maybe there will be aftermarker mudflap.

Then the battery. Looks like they could put 30% more batteries if they take off those speakers or place it elsewhere.

Speaking of speakers. Will it be water resistant in light rain from water splashes? 

Those internal lifting pressure sensor also worries me. If the wheel flips then hit the handle hard, which is most likely, then it might impact the reliability of those sensor. Hopefully it will not turn down the power when riding 20mph after few tumbles because of the malfunction  sensor.

Off course all of these are gueses and hopefully kingsong tried their best to test this machine out to the limit. Except the mudflap.. It is ugly ?

[koto]

9 hours ago, Kens said:

So you mean Rockwheel is not smooth, InMotion is not comfortable and SoloWheel is not cool? ? jk

That is what you want to understand ;-)

[Rob Valley]

29 minutes ago, Kens said:

Those internal lifting pressure sensor also worries me. If the wheel flips then hit the handle hard, which is most likely, then it might impact the reliability of those sensor. Hopefully it will not turn down the power when riding 20mph after few tumbles because of the malfunction  sensor.

 

Agreed. I hope to get some more info on the schematics of these sensors, you can easily imagine a worst case scenario with some normally open cheap sensors to fail dramatically, but i can also imagine secure working concepts so i hope the engineers at KS are clever people, and looking from the photos, it sure looks like it.

[mrelwood]

Usually sensors like this, like the power button, doesn’t shut off the wheel if speed is more than just a few km/h. I’m sure KingSong has had a thought or few about it.

But the mudflap truly is horrible. It doesn’t look like even an afterthought. More like it was designed by the same guy who made the current KS app...

[esaj]

3 hours ago, Rob Valley said:

Agreed. I hope to get some more info on the schematics of these sensors, you can easily imagine a worst case scenario with some normally open cheap sensors to fail dramatically, but i can also imagine secure working concepts so i hope the engineers at KS are clever people, and looking from the photos, it sure looks like it.

"Strain gauge in the guide rack of the handle:"

Also known as "load cells", I have few similar + the ADC's (HX711, if you're looking for a cheap high-resolution ADC) for reading them . They're usually used in body weight scales and such.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_gauge  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_cell#Strain_gauge_load_cell

If (and likely when) they've done it "properly", as in, the sensor has no effect if the wheel is moving anything past a couple of km/h, at least the mechanical part should be pretty "safe" and wear-resistant...

EDIT: I did think of one pitfall: the "detection of lifting" operates here when the wheel is lifted from the handle. The "lip" of the gauge is attached to the handle, and the weight of the wheel pulls the "outer" part down, causing a change that the wheel can detect. But what if you stand on the pedals, the wheel isn't moving and you PULL up on the handle?   Don't try it... 

[koto]

17 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Did the old Msuper v3 have ”The Gotway Glide”? Haven’t tried newer Gotways, but I’m interested in knowing how they feel in comparison.

What is "old" Msuper V3 for you ?  There are so many versions with a little enhancements from previous version so it is not easy know what you call the old MsuperV3. The very first version is of course old. At that time, I didn't like Msuper V3 so I cannot tell you precisely. Anyway, generally gotway wheels have the gotway glide. When it comes for my own experience, I can describe it as dancing smoothly in an elegant way, with beautiful curves and flexibility. You feel like doing everything synchronized  with some waves. You may feell that the very old Msuper3 is not reactive enough. you may feel that it is not natural to turn, etc... but when you are in a good condition you can feel this dancing way of riding. I couldn't feel the same thing on gotway 10' inches wheels probably because I cannot feel myself comfortable on these wheels. 14, 16 and 18 inches gotway wheels are OK. I'm not familiar with the Monster.

So, probably I guess what you called "old MsuperV3"  has the gotway glide. Mine which is not the first version is OK about that. My version is one of the first Msuper3 with a more reactive motherboard/algorithm than the first version.

[LorenW]

4 hours ago, esaj said:

"Strain gauge in the guide rack of the handle:"

Also known as "load cells", I have few similar + the ADC's (HX711, if you're looking for a cheap high-resolution ADC) for reading them . They're usually used in body weight scales and such.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_gauge  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_cell#Strain_gauge_load_cell

If (and likely when) they've done it "properly", as in, the sensor has no effect if the wheel is moving anything past a couple of km/h, at least the mechanical part should be pretty "safe" and wear-resistant...

EDIT: I did think of one pitfall: the "detection of lifting" operates here when the wheel is lifted from the handle. The "lip" of the gauge is attached to the handle, and the weight of the wheel pulls the "outer" part down, causing a change that the wheel can detect. But what if you stand on the pedals, the wheel isn't moving and you PULL up on the handle?   Don't try it... 

This is a clever solution, but may not be compatible with people who use "training straps" while learning. Maybe that is considered an antiquated learning technique at this point?

[mrelwood]

54 minutes ago, koto said:

What is "old" Msuper V3 for you ?

I’m thinking about the 2-3 year old Msuper that I tried in a meet. All I know is that it’s ”not a newer powerful one”, and had the 840Wh (or 8-something) battery. The pedal feel was downright horrible, as it had this ”boaty”, very much delayed pedal tilt. It started tilting forward with a long delay, only once I already had some speed on it. Same with braking, the pedal angle changed for the whole duration of the braking.

I know newer ones have a harder feel, but it’s not the softness that bothers me. It’s the pedal angle changing slowly pretty much all the time while riding what felt very discouraging. Even the IPS Lhotz had a more sensible aproach to pedal softness. And I prefer even the humorously soft 16S ”learner mode” to the boaty old Msuper response. The 16S ”learner”, while soft, is still fast to react.

I was hoping to hear that the boaty, delayed tilt is the ”Gotway glide” that is found to some extent in the newer ones as well. That way I wouldn’t have to think about the Msuper X anymore, and I could get back to my senses and settle down on getting the 18L! ?

 

18 minutes ago, LorenW said:

This is a clever solution, but may not be compatible with people who use "training straps" while learning. 

Good point! I would think the switch engages at somewhere between 15-20kg pull force, which I guess can still happen on a strap. Luckily the 18L won’t be a learner wheel to many...

[Kens]

7 hours ago, esaj said:

EDIT: I did think of one pitfall: the "detection of lifting" operates here when the wheel is lifted from the handle. The "lip" of the gauge is attached to the handle, and the weight of the wheel pulls the "outer" part down, causing a change that the wheel can detect. But what if you stand on the pedals, the wheel isn't moving and you PULL up on the handle?   Don't try it... 

If it intentional then you can practice falling from a cut off.. If unintentional then you will received an award certificate from @Smoother and forever will be in "THE FACE PLANT WALL OF INFAMY" 

[novazeus]

kingsong has a shutoff button on their app just under the more button. i’ve done that.

[koto]

On 6/5/2018 at 2:24 AM, mrelwood said:

I’m thinking about the 2-3 year old Msuper that I tried in a meet. All I know is that it’s ”not a newer powerful one”, and had the 840Wh (or 8-something) battery. The pedal feel was downright horrible, as it had this ”boaty”, very much delayed pedal tilt. It started tilting forward with a long delay, only once I already had some speed on it. Same with braking, the pedal angle changed for the whole duration of the braking.

I know newer ones have a harder feel, but it’s not the softness that bothers me. It’s the pedal angle changing slowly pretty much all the time while riding what felt very discouraging. Even the IPS Lhotz had a more sensible aproach to pedal softness. And I prefer even the humorously soft 16S ”learner mode” to the boaty old Msuper response. The 16S ”learner”, while soft, is still fast to react.

I was hoping to hear that the boaty, delayed tilt is the ”Gotway glide” that is found to some extent in the newer ones as well. That way I wouldn’t have to think about the Msuper X anymore, and I could get back to my senses and settle down on getting the 18L! ?

 

ok, I see what you mean. It has changed now. gotway pedals are harder than before. Today gotway's "hard mode" is too hard for me. I think too much hard pedals increases foot painfullness. I think the thing you call "boaty" behaviour still exists. This is probably a consequence of the machanism which create gotway glide but this is not the gotway glide. But you're right, what I call gotway glide has something to do with softness.

With KS-16S and KS-18L, I don't really appreciate how they accelerate. They seem to continuously accelerate too earlier than expected. Probably because I'm not familiar with this behaviour. I prefer KS-18L acceleration to KS-16S one. I feel more shaked on KS-16S. I don't have these beeing shaked feelings on gotways.

[Electroman]

On 6/4/2018 at 9:18 PM, esaj said:

"Strain gauge in the guide rack of the handle:"

Also known as "load cells", I have few similar + the ADC's (HX711, if you're looking for a cheap high-resolution ADC) for reading them . They're usually used in body weight scales and such.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strain_gauge  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_cell#Strain_gauge_load_cell

If (and likely when) they've done it "properly", as in, the sensor has no effect if the wheel is moving anything past a couple of km/h, at least the mechanical part should be pretty "safe" and wear-resistant...

EDIT: I did think of one pitfall: the "detection of lifting" operates here when the wheel is lifted from the handle. The "lip" of the gauge is attached to the handle, and the weight of the wheel pulls the "outer" part down, causing a change that the wheel can detect. But what if you stand on the pedals, the wheel isn't moving and you PULL up on the handle?   Don't try it... 

Must try!!

On a serious note though, the very cheap load cells in the image I have come to truly dislike cause been going through them like no tomorrow. The V2 version of the Fanatec clubsport pedals (brake) use the exact model and I don't think are really made to apply pressure to again and again and again hence me buying them and re solder the connector I have to use and swap them out in rig, one after the other.  But I also notice when arriving some can be dead, others have different QC problems and can differ in pressure applied even between them in same batch so constantly having to adjust brake input after swapping one out, so no wonder Fanatec finally got the picture and went with a better load cell for V3 of pedals with same name, but now they cannot milk customers for seriously marked up china load cells anymore so maybe that's why they did hang on for so long for V3 and no "improved V2"?

Now I fully understand why KS going down this route and not some magpowr load cell  in there cause it would affect the price by a lot, but a higher quality compact China S cell of higher quality load cell and personally I would pay $25 more for the wheel w/o hesitation just for the peace of mind alone. Now perhaps KS implementation of the load cell is a bit better and I am just nervous for no good reason, hope so cause this is a contender for me.