400km and still waiting on first crash

[meepmeepmayer]

(Sry this is offtopic.)

3 hours ago, Ipsiain said:

Please tell me more about this. Was this on your acm? What model was it? If i’m going uphill for any period of time i’ll have a peek at the temperature read out in the app hoping to avoid such a thing as melting cables

It was on my 84V ACM which was among the first 84V GW wheels (white side panels). In lightheadedness after another really nice and successful cool-hot spring night mountain ride, I went to the pretty steep mountain that was always in my mind for what I envisioned using a EUC for when buying it. TLDR, after pushing the wheel up uninteruptedly on a 10-15% incline gravel road for maybe 7 or 8 minutes, the cables from the motor melted through their insulation and shorted together. This was a a time when Gotway had the problem with the melting/failing motor connectors under high stress, and after the crash I fully expected this to be the issue. In fact, I kind of did the mountain ride in desperation/hope (together with not thinking to much) to find out how the connector issue affected me because mountains is what I always wanted to ultimately do with the wheel. But it was failing motor cabling.

GW did slightly increase the cable thickness in further motors (used in the ACM, msuper V3) so newer wheels (motors) of this type have slightly better cables. And I believe (not sure) with the Tesla motor (used in the Tesla, ACM2, ms3 Tesla upgrade, probably the msuper X unless they built a new motor for that), the cabling is even thicker.

But the problem remains that the motor cables are probably too thin in the sense that you CAN melt them if you push your wheel up really steep inclines for longer times. The mosfets don't necessarily always fail first, and the temperature sensor creating the overheat warning is on the board, so it won't see overheating cables. We don't have much data as people don't just push their current wheels up crazy inclines to see what happens, but my guess is that wheels probably still are not at a point where you can always expect an overheat warning before anything fails. The dream of "the rest of the hardware will handle anything the batteries can throw at them" isn't 100% true, I think.

It's a very fringe issue, though, this happened to me, Marty, as well as some Chinese riders doing mountain stress testing but not many other instances are known despite quite some people doing mountain rides. And perhaps, current wheels ARE better and this wouldn't be a problem. Just something to have on your mind and not crazily overdo it with stressing your wheel.

Here's the thread about it, it is a bit outdated and was written in the frustration of the moment, is long and contains a lot of updated/corrected information, and it also links to Marty's thread which is a bit newer.

Don't read too much into it other than that you can't 100% expect wheels to "work or warn" (which from a safety standpoint really is what you want in any situation) and it's not always only the mosfets that you have to care about. There's also this where the motor connectors got really hot (but this did not lead to a failure, in fact I never repaired that).

But this is NO reason to not buy a (current) Gotway and in principle applies to every wheel. More like general physics: thin cables (high resistance) + very high current + no heatsink for this heat to go = hot.

According to @Jason McNeil, the EUC motors themselves would also overheat if driven at their stated nominal for prolonged times (which defeats what "nominal" means), so the entire "very high continuous power for a long time" issue is still kind of unknown, and the motor cables are part of this thematic complex.

(Also I'm no expert, this is only what I think)

Don't worry too much about this, it's just something that happened. Use common sense in stressing your wheel - any brand, any model. Just like general riding, electronics failure is just something that can happen.

Edited May 16, 2018 by meepmeepmayer

[kour]

you'll wish you'd been wearing some gear, trust me!

[Ipsiain]

Thanks meepmeep . Valuable information there. I guess it takes brave people to sacrifice themselves and there wheels to test the limits, so us not so brave can stay with in them. Ive got the acm 84v (the one before the telsa motor’d varient ) so i’ve been taking it easy on the inclines and avoiding any prelonged stress. 

[meepmeepmayer]

(Offtopic)

@Ipsiain Thanks! But:

Is this bravery, or simple desperation? (Babylon 5 quote)

I guess if you stay below 5 minutes without breaks on really notable inclines (like 10% or 15% which is quite steep if you look at it) you should be good. Also probably you have the better cabling (14AWG it says on the 3 motor cables) already.

You can also feel any hotness if you touch the right side panel above the blue-ish ankle pad and slightly to the back, which is where the motor connectors and the most dense cabling lies. But don't be alarmed , even if it feels hot this does not mean damage is imminent or has happened. There's still quite some margin, this is very conservative. And if the area is merely "quite warm", that means you are certifiedly fine.

Too much worrying about this is no fun (and it is a fringe problem), so don't do that, just stick to the 5 minute (or 2-3 minute if it's really steep) rule. Everywhere else, no problem!

Really looking forward to the upcoming @Marty Backe test. That is indeed brave because he knows of the danger!

Edited May 16, 2018 by meepmeepmayer

[Demargon]

5 hours ago, dmethvin said:

If you had an older slow wheel like a Ninebot One I would just say this is a lesson you need

I can't it say better. Here is my cutoff Sensei ?

Edited May 16, 2018 by Demargon

[pico]

Great cut off Sensei! If you are over 180lbs you just breathe hard and it cuts off. Fond(?) memories of my first spills!

[meepmeepmayer]

51 minutes ago, Demargon said:

cutoff Sensei

[dmethvin]

21 hours ago, kasenutty said:

I like to think we all have a little Ipsiaain in us. 

I had a little Ipsiann in me but by now it's bled out.

Edited May 17, 2018 by dmethvin

[Ipsiain]

im 6”3 and 110kg. Ive got plenty to go around if any of you ladies need topped back up. Better be quick though, my first fall may be imminent. I’ve got this itching curiosity to hear that sweet sound of the 20% battery alarm. ?‍♂️?

[alcatraz]

I've done 3000km of dense city riding (China). From -20C to +30C. I ride close to cars and buses, on terrible roads.

No accidents apart from stepping off trying to get past a tricky sidewalk obstacle (purpose is learning, seen as a challenge, not a surprise, low speed).

I've had only one crash where my hands touched the pavement and that was at maybe 10km in. I was riding at sunset and I didn't see a small dip in the pavement. I was leaning at the time and hadn't learned how to handle a resulting wobble.

Now I'm constantly inspecting the road in front of me with one eye while having another eye up high looking far ahead. I'm not afraid to go fast but I keep my distance to obstacles. When light is low so is your speed.

One thing I've learned is when you are riding behind a car, even at snail pace you can have a crash because from under the car there could suddenly appear a huge pothole. What I can't see I fear.

I don't recommend riding in dense city traffic. For patient people that practice defensive driving, that maybe have ridden bicycles and motorcycles for maany years, go ahead and do it but be careful. Wear high visibility clothes and keep lights on at dark.

I've had several close calls but the best thing about being a patient defensive rider is that close calls usually never result in accidents. They become lessons, not hospital visits.

/a

Edited May 18, 2018 by alcatraz

[wehey]

All my riding is off road, so I fall off most days ?

[Mark Lee]

50 minutes ago, wehey said:

All my riding is off road, so I fall off most days ?

Riding off road brings whole new skills.  Went out exploring off road jeep trail and found out why they call this area Rocky Mt's... Would like to see these people that say riding EUC is not an exercise try some of the roads we have here, never mind the trails.  

[Ipsiain]

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

I've done 3000km of dense city riding (China). From -20C to +30C. I ride close to cars and buses, on terrible 

Now I'm constantly inspecting the road in front of me with one eye while having another eye up high looking far ahead. 

-20c now that is brave! Do you do for fun or because you don’t see any other choice? I can’t imagine what that is like, maybe it would be fine if your riding on heated streets though. 

Yeah, you really need to be scanning the road infront of you like a hawk, it’s too easy to miss something or become complacent. Ive found the trickiest sections are those with shadows from trees/branches. All the imperfections in the road seem to be camouflaged.  

[Ipsiain]

1 hour ago, wehey said:

All my riding is off road, so I fall off most days ?

Any particular reason you stay off the roads? 

[wehey]

33 minutes ago, Mark Lee said:

Riding off road brings whole new skills.  Went out exploring off road jeep trail and found out why they call this area Rocky Mt's... Would like to see these people that say riding EUC is not an exercise try some of the roads we have here, never mind the trails.  

ha ha yeah it’s a whole new level of pain. 

At the time it doesn’t feel too bad but once you stop you feel a tiredness deep inside. 

The only thing that compares is when I used to surf. 

11 minutes ago, Ipsiain said:

Any particular reason you stay off the roads? 

It’s illegal ?

[Demargon]

4 hours ago, alcatraz said:

when you are riding behind a car, even at snail pace you can have a crash because from under the car there could suddenly appear a huge pothole. What I can't see I fear. 

Avoid the central part of the pavement, use the trails of the cars wheels instead because there are less dirt, moisture and thinks droped from other vehicles. Furthermore if the car in front hit a bump you can see it in how car moves.

Other advantages is you are more visible because you are where a car has to be looking across the car rear mirrors.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Demargon

[Ipsiain]

1 hour ago, wehey said:

It’s illegal ?

Have you had issues with the authorities where you live? Ive never been stopped before. Ive ridden past a few police cars and officers on foot. One time a police van gave way to me at a traffic calming junction. They don’t seem to bother where I live, for now atleast. 

[RooMiniPro]

On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 2:03 AM, Ipsiain said:

As the title suggests, ( not including my very first day of learning to ride. ) I have never came off an euc. The only bother I’ve had is dismounting and not being able to keep the wheel under control with one foot on the ground and the other on the pedal. But hopefully ive mastered that now.

My question is, how frequently do people have accidents, when was your first, how many km’s since your last? 

Side note. Im yet to buy myself saftey gear, and the fastest ive ridden is 36kph. 

I have over 1500km spread over two EUCs and a Segway MiniPro.  I haven't crashed yet and I haven't had a power cut yet, thankfully.  My machines have all topped out at no more than 22kph and I usually only ride on empty country roads and park trails, so I have not felt the need for safety gear.  My current wheel does under 20kph, which feels slow to me coming from many years of riding electric skateboards at 40kph and electric bikes at 50kph. But bikes and skateboards don't throw you down when the power is lost, so EUCs are much more dangerous than both.  At 36kph on an EUC I think I would feel the need for wrist and head protection.  I have seen people on this forum wreck themselves falling off at speeds around there.

[Ipsiain]

Oh, i dont ride around at 36km everywhere, i was just mentioning thats the top speed ive reached (recoreded by darknessbot.) My average speed  is probably mid teens. But 1500km in and no crashes sounds well above average on here! I totally agree with the unicycle being more dangerous than electric bikes and skateboards. But the bottom line is all of us riding euc’s are ok and willing to take the fall, its some what expected. And im ok with that

[Marty Backe]

25 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

I have over 1500km spread over two EUCs and a Segway MiniPro.  I haven't crashed yet and I haven't had a power cut yet, thankfully.  My machines have all topped out at no more than 22kph and I usually only ride on empty country roads and park trails, so I have not felt the need for safety gear.  My current wheel does under 20kph, which feels slow to me coming from many years of riding electric skateboards at 40kph and electric bikes at 50kph. But bikes and skateboards don't throw you down when the power is lost, so EUCs are much more dangerous than both.  At 36kph on an EUC I think I would feel the need for wrist and head protection.  I have seen people on this forum wreck themselves falling off at speeds around there.

Some of my worst injuries occurred under 5-mph. I think you're operating under a false sense of security. But it seems most of us need to get injured before climbing on the safety bandwagon. I hope your first lessons-learned injury won't be too severe.

[Ipsiain]

Marty, are you suggesting we all stay well above 5mph to stay on the safe side? 

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Ipsiain said:

Marty, are you suggesting we all stay well above 5mph to stay on the safe side? 

Exactly! I was wondering if I was being too subtle 

[Rehab1]

On 5/16/2018 at 2:03 AM, Ipsiain said:

As the title suggests, ( not including my very first day of learning to ride. ) I have never came off an euc. 

Consider yourself lucky!

On 5/16/2018 at 2:03 AM, Ipsiain said:

Side note. Im yet to buy myself saftey gear, and the fastest ive ridden is 36kph.

Pardon my screaming.....”Buy Some Safety Gear”! 

[alcatraz]

10 hours ago, Ipsiain said:

-20c now that is brave! Do you do for fun or because you don’t see any other choice? I can’t imagine what that is like, maybe it would be fine if your riding on heated streets though. 

Yeah, you really need to be scanning the road infront of you like a hawk, it’s too easy to miss something or become complacent. Ive found the trickiest sections are those with shadows from trees/branches. All the imperfections in the road seem to be camouflaged.  

I did it because it's still the most time efficient commute. Also as a challenge. It really demands a high level of patience doing simple things. It's sometimes almost as slow as walking but most of the times it's at least 2-3 times faster.

In China it's hard to get around unless you are small. Roada are crowded. A unicycle is very convenient. 

Riding on frozen roads is not a huge deal if you have some training. I come from a country where winters are icy and long so I had my fair share of driving/riding on slippery surfaces. 

I'll just give a hint by saying that a bicycle is fairly hard to control on slippery surfaces but a unicycle is more like a bus. It has more weight on a smaller surface so it keeps control better. An 18 inch would be much worse than a 14 inch. Need to keep pressure high.

[Demargon]

9 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Buy Some Safety Gear

Now I'm out from the safety gear because the banning on motorized vehicles in places like natural parks, public gardens and sidewalks (were my speed is 5-10 km/h.) I already getting some suspicious looking at me.

Wearing casual clots without padding or helmet attract less attention and the people who see me is wide more emphatic.

I planing to make me a costume to wear padding and helmet without looking like a road warrior. Maybe something like climber or safety inspector ???

Edited May 19, 2018 by Demargon