How to excuse your self in the path of pedestrians

[Smoother]

On 4/16/2019 at 2:35 PM, Marty Backe said:

They aren't expected bicycles or anything else that could rapidly over take them. I am surprised however in the number of people in urban settings that don't look before crossing paths 

Why aren't they expecting bicycles or anything else that could rapidly over take them?  They are on a mixed use trail for God's sake.  There are bikes and joggers and mountain skateboardes, out there and they know it. People are just in a world of their own  when walking, which apparently doesn't include being aware of their surrounding, if for nothing else than for their own safety, not just from fast bicycles, etc but also criminals.  How many women have been raped by someone who approached from behind and took them by surprise because their situational awareness was zero?

[Planemo]

It is indeed a great shame that by far the biggest problems I have ever had were from pedestrians. I have had motorbikes with really loud pipes that, when passing horses, I used to slow down to about 10mph and pass with the engine idling and the riders were always so thankful. In fact I have never had a bad experience with a horse rider whether I have been on a motorbike, cycle or car. I do similar with dog walkers and slow right down when on my bicycle off road on paths.

In contrast, I have had pedestrians literally bust blood vessels with anger when I have been on my mountainbike and try to get round them. Ranging from huffs and puffs through to full bore running out of the house and threatening to call police when Mrs P and I had ended up on a footpath that went past the house (which was about 100' away). There wasn't a soul around, we were going across a field and very slowly at that. The woman went ballistic, stating we weren't allowed cycles on a footpath (which is true in the UK) so we apologised and told her that we had made a mistake and didn't realise we weren't on a throughfare. We offered to dismount and push, but she continued to go mental, saying we couldn't do that either as it wasn't allowed. I didn't believe her I have to admit, but when I got home I found it was true. Footpaths really are just footpaths in the UK

Most pedestrians just seem angry at anything with wheels. Especially hikers and dedicated walkers, the majority of which I feel need serious anger management training.

I am torn between using a bell (which can also annoy people here) and keeping my speed up a little or just simply slowing down to walking pace and slotting by on the side with the most space. I noticed that riders in the Netherlands nearly always use bells and there was no issues, but clearly they are used to having bikes around. Over here, the public expect you to be either driving/riding on a road or walking on a path. There's no middle ground. A shame because there's room for all but their stinking attitudes never change, even when you are polite to them.

[mrelwood]

A good point was brought up here at the forum that made a lot of sense to me. The pedestrians, bicyclists, skateboardists, and even scooterists and EUCists that do not have a drivers licence may not consider themselves being in ”traffic” when out and about. This may well be the  reason for erratic changes in direction, using the center of the road, using the left side when turning left from behind a bush, and indeed not being aware of their surroundings, etc. They have never been taught how to behave in traffic, so for them anything but a car lane is just a field to be roamed freely.

The first thing that comes to my mind when I see such behaviour is how inconsiderate the person is. But that may not be the case, (s)he may well be just uneducated.

I’ve stopped expecting anyone to behave rationally when moving/travelling. It’s not at all unusual for a bunch of just two pedestrians (or more) to go to different sides of the road when they hear me coming. And at the last second one of them realizes being on the wrong side and quickly hops across.

[Smoother]

13 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I am torn between using a bell (which can also annoy people here) and keeping my speed up a little or just simply slowing down to walking pace and slotting by on the side with the most space

As you know, I'm sure, every situation requires a different solution (from the bag of limited solutions)

 

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’ve stopped expecting anyone to behave rationally when moving/travelling. It’s not at all unusual for a bunch of just two pedestrians (or more) to go to different sides of the road when they hear me coming. And at the last second one of them realizes being on the wrong side and quickly hops across.

Tell me about it! People leave you a two foot gap between themselves and assume that is good enough NO NO NO. Do you really want to get your ankles swiped by my pedals? you idiots!

I had a kid (maybe 7 years old) with his back to me all by himself walking calmly on a 2m wide path (parents about 30m ahead) smooth grass either side, no one else around. He was doing fine, walking on the right I was on the left (we ride on the left in the UK)  As I got close (at around 25kph), without looking he deliberately crossed the path at 90 degrees to stand on the left side) freaked me out.  I was wearing headphone, but after all the drama was over, I deduced that the parents (who were looking back at him from the 30m I mentioned), must have seen me coming and told him to "stand to the side".  Why he decided to cross the entire path just as I was approaching WITHOUT TURNING TO LOOK, when he was already on one side, beat the hell out of me.  If they had just kept their stupid mouths shut, there would have been no incident; likewise, if he had been taught to look before making a sudden direction change. You may think that last one a bit advanced for a 7 year old, but consider this; he's well old enough to ride a bicycle, where a move like that on the street could have got him killed, I know because a kid about the same age, on a bike, shot out directly  into the path of my 30mph car from between parked cars.  Thank God for anti lock brakes. He looked so shocked, which of course is because he did not look before making a very stupid move.  He came within inches from dying that day.  Stupid people breed stupid kids and the cycle continues. We live in the age of stupid, and it's getting worse.

[Planemo]

54 minutes ago, Smoother said:

he's well old enough to ride a bicycle

Thats just the problem. Kids just dont ride cycles these days. When I was at secondary school the bike racks were overflowing. I recently went to my daughters secondary during school time and counted a whopping 4 bikes. I found it very depressing. I spent my entire youth on cycles and we loved it. Out for the whole day with your mates at the age of 12 and we rode for miles and miles.

Kids nowadays would rather be on their feet so they can bury their head in their phones (adding to our passing problems) or ready to take the next Instagram picture of their chocco-latte.

[erk1024]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

Tell me about it! People leave you a two foot gap between themselves and assume that is good enough NO NO NO.

I've had extreme examples of this when flying drones. I always take off my drone in a spot where nobody is around, and then I fly it for twenty-ish minutes at 400 feet up where it's not troubling anyone. Most of the time I fly it over water because it makes for good shots. And I usually fly at sunrise. But when it's out of juice, then I have to bring it in to land, and this is where things get tricky.

Now if people would give me 2 meters of space for one minute, it would be totally fine and I would land it, fold it up and be on my way. But one weekend I was setting it down, a woman walked within two feet of it, and wasn't even really looking at it. That means that if I accidentally push the lever in the wrong direction, it's going to fly right into her, with propellers spinning at 3500 rpm.

On my second flight that day, I walked over to a cement bench where nobody was around. Between the bench and the ocean, there was a one foot patch of grass, and then the rocks of the breakwater. Behind me is a larger strip of grass and an eight foot wide sidewalk that everyone is using to get out to the beach and pier. Now remember--nobody was within 50 feet of this bench! It was in a long line of benches, and nobody was even close to it. So I walk over to it and start bringing in the drone. When it's ten feet from the bench, and making a sound like a big angry wasp, these two runners show up out of nowhere and run through this super narrow strip of grass between me, the bench and the breakwater. I immediately let go of the stick, and the drone flared to stop its momentum. One of the runners looked up, seeing the drone for the first time and threw up his hands OH MY GOD IT'S A DRONE. Seriously, that's the first time he'd noticed it. They kept running and I landed it without incident. 

The thing is, people have ZERO situational awareness. I'm trying *really hard* to keep it away from pedestrians and looking around and trying to have enough situational awareness for everyone, but it's not easy. And people somehow just have to get in the way. I'm seriously considering roping off an area. They will no doubt go around the ropes, but at least I'll have made every effort at safety.

This is one of the photos from that day.

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by erk1024
fixed gramar

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A good point was brought up here at the forum that made a lot of sense to me. The pedestrians, bicyclists, skateboardists, and even scooterists and EUCists that do not have a drivers licence may not consider themselves being in ”traffic” when out and about. This may well be the  reason for erratic changes in direction, using the center of the road, using the left side when turning left from behind a bush, and indeed not being aware of their surroundings, etc. They have never been taught how to behave in traffic, so for them anything but a car lane is just a field to be roamed freely.

The first thing that comes to my mind when I see such behaviour is how inconsiderate the person is. But that may not be the case, (s)he may well be just uneducated.

I’ve stopped expecting anyone to behave rationally when moving/travelling. It’s not at all unusual for a bunch of just two pedestrians (or more) to go to different sides of the road when they hear me coming. And at the last second one of them realizes being on the wrong side and quickly hops across.

I've had very little kids do that a couple of times, but it's really surprised me that adults (always women - sorry) have done it too. You know and expect little kids to act irrationally, but not adults.

So I always expect the little ones to act like balls in a pinball machine and ride accordingly when around them (very slow), but I still tend to treat adults like adults, and that bites me sometimes 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Thats just the problem. Kids just dont ride cycles these days. When I was at secondary school the bike racks were overflowing. I recently went to my daughters secondary during school time and counted a whopping 4 bikes. I found it very depressing. I spent my entire youth on cycles and we loved it. Out for the whole day with your mates at the age of 12 and we rode for miles and miles.

Kids nowadays would rather be on their feet so they can bury their head in their phones (adding to our passing problems) or ready to take the next Instagram picture of their chocco-latte.

Same in the urban centers of the United States. Like you, I spent my life as a kid on a bike, and spent it outside all the time. Now, I rarely see kids of any age outside by themselves. I have to think it's different in the rural towns, but maybe it's not.

It's a different world for sure.

[Heyzeus]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 6:35 AM, Marty Backe said:

I am surprised however in the number of people in urban settings that don't look before crossing paths 

Well...it happened today...going to class, in the bike lane like a good person who follows the rules, not going too fast, certainly no faster than bikes go in this area, probably slower.

Dude walks right across the bike lane without looking or anything, luckily there is still some distance between me and him, though not much, I try and slow down as fast as I can, can't fully stop, but get down to maybe 2 or so mph and I put up my hands to deflect.

Luckily the guy was a somewhat beefier dude and not some 100lb girl, but I was able to use my arms to push off him a little bit, twist the unicycle away from him and bail.  He stayed standing, I landed on my butt, my unicycle traveled for 10 or so feet before tipping on it's side and stopping.  

Dude: "Sorry, my bad"

Me: "Dude, what the fuck, it's the bike lane, fucking look before you cross it"

Maybe I was a little harsh, but maybe next time he'll look before he crosses a street(for bikes) and not be a dumbass

Luckily I was uninjured other than i'll probably have a small bruise where I landed on my butt.

Luckily my unicycle tipped over in the grass so other than some dirt on the pedal where the pedal finally caught the ground it was undamaged, so good job on the padding @Rywokast I was worried it was going to be damaged but it looks just fine.

 

Frankly this guy was lucky I was on my unicycle and not my mountain bike.  This is a slightly downhill portion of the path and people can go at a good clip on their bikes there.  Had I been on my bike, my hands would have been on my handlebar and I would not have been able to push off him to deflect away from him and would have just plowed right into him and we both would have gone down.

ugh

[Rywokast]

9 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

Well...it happened today...going to class, in the bike lane like a good person who follows the rules, not going too fast, certainly no faster than bikes go in this area, probably slower.

Dude walks right across the bike lane without looking or anything, luckily there is still some distance between me and him, though not much, I try and slow down as fast as I can, can't fully stop, but get down to maybe 2 or so mph and I put up my hands to deflect.

Luckily the guy was a somewhat beefier dude and not some 100lb girl, but I was able to use my arms to push off him a little bit, twist the unicycle away from him and bail.  He stayed standing, I landed on my butt, my unicycle traveled for 10 or so feet before tipping on it's side and stopping.  

Dude: "Sorry, my bad"

Me: "Dude, what the fuck, it's the bike lane, fucking look before you cross it"

Maybe I was a little harsh, but maybe next time he'll look before he crosses a street(for bikes) and not be a dumbass

Luckily I was uninjured other than i'll probably have a small bruise where I landed on my butt.

Luckily my unicycle tipped over in the grass so other than some dirt on the pedal where the pedal finally caught the ground it was undamaged, so good job on the padding @Rywokast I was worried it was going to be damaged but it looks just fine.

 

Frankly this guy was lucky I was on my unicycle and not my mountain bike.  This is a slightly downhill portion of the path and people can go at a good clip on their bikes there.  Had I been on my bike, my hands would have been on my handlebar and I would not have been able to push off him to deflect away from him and would have just plowed right into him and we both would have gone down.

ugh

wow.. lucky that wasnt worse than it was.. but sucks nonetheless i would be super pissed off... im glad you and the unicycle are okay. how i approach it is i always assume that people are not paying attention and are going to walk whenever and wherever the hell they want... especially since here pedestrians on foot always have the right of way according to the law.. im not as worried about that as i am cars though, the amount of times i have come to within an inch of being nailed by a car who didnt even bother to glance when turning right is astonishing, theyre only concerned about cars coming to their left and so they dont even bother to look right.. ive had to come to a dead stop, swerve into traffic etc more times than i can count.. this sounds like it was totally this guys fault as he was not paying attention/didnt care. hopefully he learned a lesson

[Heyzeus]

Yeah, I'm already pretty cautious on campus due to the sheer number of people walking around looking at their phones with heads down and headphones in but I'm going to have to be even more cautious.

I might practice hard stops too so I can get a better feel for stopping hard, at least better than I currently have.  If I had more experience with hard stops I may have been able to stop quicker and avoided hitting him.  But at some point, there just isn't enough room.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Heyzeus

[Rywokast]

4 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

Yeah, I'm already pretty cautious on campus due to the sheer number of people walking around looking at their phones with heads down and headphones in but I'm going to have to be even more cautious.

I might practice hard stops too so I can get a better feel for stopping hard, at least better than I currently have.  If I had more experience with hard stops I may have been able to stop quicker and avoided hitting him.  But at some point, there just isn't enough room.

yea no doubt.. it sucks but it is what it is.. i found that learning to ride backwards has made me a lot more comfortable with really hard stops, but even so i would prefer if given the option to not come to a hard stop and instead quickly swerve.. but i mean yea its gonna happen some time inevitably, if there isnt room there isnt room that goes for swerving or stopping

[Heyzeus]

Whenever i'm at a crosswalk, waiting to cross where people can make right turns, and the walk sign goes on, I always check to my left/rear to see if any cars are coming and either wait for them to turn, or make sure they have come to a complete stop and seen me before crossing.  Same when i'm getting to the other side, i'll make sure anyone in the turning lane has slowed down or sees me rather than just assuming they will see me and stop.  Drivers are definitely only paying attention to their left half the time and at T intersections where they have no oncoming traffic from their left just assume they can turn without looking.  Right of way means nothing when you are dead or in a wheelchair.

[LanghamP]

Now I found this story to be interesting.

A woman who was knocked unconscious by a cyclist will be awarded compensation, despite a judge finding she had stepped into the road while looking at her phone.

The court heard that Brushett was one of a “throng” of people trying to cross the road at the start of rush-hour. She was looking at her mobile phone when crossing the road, and only noticed Hazeldean approaching at the last moment, despite the traffic lights showing green.

The court was told she panicked and tried to step back, but the cyclist, who had been travelling at 10-15mph, swerved in the same direction and hit her.

[The cyclist was knocked out.]

The judge’s ruling found that the parties shared responsibility, so while Brushett is guaranteed a payout, she will get only half of the full value of her claim.

What people are missing is that the above is a good and desirable outcome because people are allowed to make poor choices that are non-fatal.

Let's review all the poor choices:

1. The bicyclist has the green light so he thinks he can go. My dashcam has caught hundreds of drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists running a red light. Do you trust a little green light to tell you when do go?

2. The bicyclists was above "push the pedestrian with a stopped front tire and curse at them speeds".

3. Pedestrian assumed crosswalk was for pedestrians. See point 1.

4. On the cell phone.

And yet, this is a good outcome because no one died, and there were only minor injuries. Bicyclists and pedestrians can and should hit each other, if for no other reason than to teach caution about the relative energies involved. A dangerous by design system means mistakes are fatal or crippling, but a forgiving design means people are minorly injured.

[Elder Meat]

I think the difference is that story and legal finding is it's in Britain, where legally truth is not protection from getting sued for libel or slander. 

[Planemo]

I read that story too. didn't it go 50/50? So the cyclist can claim off her as well? All seems a bit silly to do that though, unless one of them has a considerably higher claim than the other.

I still feel that the cyclist has less blame. I mean, if everyone were to drive on the assumption that everyone could walk into the road at any minute, the only safe speed for all vehicles would be about 5mph! Car drivers would have to slow down to walking speed for every car that appeared at a T junction. It would be madness. At some point on the approach, we all have to assume that our journey is safe to continue and those who should stop, do stop. Trying to plan for the fact that they may pull out at the last minute (as this lady pedestrian seems to have done) is impossible. Loads of people are looking at their phones whilst static at a crossing on the pavement. Should we stop our right of way on the off-chance that one of them may decide to be an idiot? Maybe I have missed something in this particular case.

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I mean, if everyone were to drive on the assumption that everyone could walk into the road at any minute, the only safe speed for all vehicles would be about 5mph!

I do not see that as being a bad idea, because people, especially drivers, don't realize (or care) that they are using a rather dangerous vehicle. We tell people not to run at the swimming pool and yet see nothing wrong with vehicles traveling legally four times as fast near human bodies.

So what's a good speed and how to enforce it?

Well, in urban areas simply rig up a gun pointed at the driver's chest connected to the bumper. If the bumper is hit hard enough to entirely crush it, then the gun goes off, instantly killing the driver.

It is then up to the driver/bicyclist to ascertain how fast he wants to go, with the caveat that there are no speed limits, crosswalks, traffic lights, or traffic signs. It is entirely up to users of the road to negotiate with themselves at how safe they want to be.

[Planemo]

10 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Well, in urban areas simply rig up a gun pointed at the driver's chest connected to the bumper. If the bumper is hit hard enough to entirely crush it, then the gun goes off, instantly killing the driver.

Somewhat harsh, but I kinda like it.

Like you, I have extremely low tolerance to bad road users. There is no such thing as an 'accident' (barring autonomous movements/unknown medical conditions/wild animals/mechanial failure or acts of god) and is why I was quite pleased when they changed the definition of Road Traffic Accident (RTA) to Collision (RTC).

However, your example would by default force everyone into travelling at my previously mentioned 5mph and I cant help but feel we would be restricting an awful lot of people for the relatively few idiots such as 'phone lady'.

I'm not sure what the solution is. For vehicles over say 15mph, autonomous ones with the correct infrastructure would reduce a huge amount of RTC's but thats a long way away.

Until then, I think the courts should see more RTC's and come down harshly on those drivers that make bad judgements rather, than is the case, simply leave the insurers to pick up all the expenses. Many (the vast majority) of RTC's never make it to court despite careless or dangerous driving having been the cause, so the only risk for bad drivers is loss of NCB and a lot of the time that can be protected so theres no real incentive for drivers to be more careful. To achieve this though, we need more police and less busy courts...

[Meserias]

yesterday jut ordered an finger running bell from aliexpress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32978319611.html

I will say thank you when I pass pedestrians with my wheel.

 

[Mike Sacristan]

Yesterday I got to see two trains collide in slow motion.
I was out riding with my wife. I was on my Ninebot and she was on her Onewheel. We were on a shared bike path/walking path. We came to an intersecting bike path / walking path which is a rather steep downhill for the people approaching us from the right. A young woman was blasting down the path on her bicycle. Monika slowed down on the intersection instead of stopping before it. She then continued to crawl at low speed on the intersection. The girl on the bike was hitting her brakes and they were squealing and couldn't slow her down because #shittybicycle. The girl tried to swerve to the right but since Monika was continuing to crawl forward they timed their collision perfectly. It was a collision at slow speed. They both apologised to each other and made sure they were okay. I just shut up and didn't say anything because I had way too much to say.

When the girl left I spoke with my wife and told her that a good idea would have been to stop before the intersection or go through it. But not crawl through it at low speed. I told her that she was putting a lot of trust in other's ability while she should instead work on her own ability. I also told her that I understood that it became a panic situation and it is hard for people to make rational decisions without having previous experience. She is slowly becoming a better rider and making better decisions.

We both use bells which we wear on our hands. They are very loud and I have asked her to use the bell preemptively and not at the last second. 10 meters distance at least.
That wouldn't have helped in this case anyway.

So it looks like during today's ride I am going to teach her to do quick stops on the Onewheel. Slowing down to crawling speed on the Onewheel made it hard for her to balance and she was fighting to stay on instead of trying to avoid the girl on the bike.

So we require licenses for people to drive cars and mopeds. But no licenses for people to ride electric vehicles or bicycles. And no licenses for people to walk. Meaning that being educated is optional. We require that electric vehicles can stop within X distance and Y speed but bicycles don't have mandatory checkups to maintain the road worthiness. Lovely.

[LanghamP]

6 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

She then continued to crawl at low speed on the intersection. The girl on the bike was hitting her brakes and they were squealing and couldn't slow her down because #shittybicycle. The girl tried to swerve to the right but since Monika was continuing to crawl forward they timed their collision perfectly. It was a collision at slow speed. They both apologised to each other and made sure they were okay. I just shut up and didn't say anything because I had way too much to say.

I think this collision between cyclist and EUC (OW I consider to be an EUC) is an excellent outcome because no one got injured despite mistakes being made. The slower speeds which is still faster than what most people can run reduces injuries. And notice there was some consequence to both riders making mistakes (running the stop and excessive speed), although I'm of the opinion that both riders can and should be somewhat aggressive, because being aggressive is the opposite of being on your cell phone.

Contrast this to a collision between two drivers; undoubtedly furious horns will be used, one or both will be aggressive and not give way, and the resulting collision will be expensive. It's all so silly and too expensive, fiscally and emotionally. No ass blocks or rams each other in the grocery store, ever, then screams at the other person. I've never seen such behavior even at my local ghettos Schnucks.

As for intersections, note how people negotiate who goes first, even the drivers! This is much better than on stroads where drivers hit each other at 45 mph, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage.

Finally, in regards to urban transportation being reduces to five mph, the present urban average speed for drivers ranges from 9 mph (LA and NYC) to 18 mph (Seattle). Despite a tremendous amount of resources, streets and parking, being devoted to drivers, in no urban areas are drivers faster than a strong bicyclist or eBike, at least not during rush hour.

Yet, outside of rush hour, one could almost lay in the middle of any street and take a 15 minute nap because the streets are that empty. It's somewhat akin to counting the number of people who come to your Thanksgiving party, and then adding rooms to your house based upon that. Perhaps a better solution to congestion is simply bribing employers to stagger their workers to come in at 7, 8, and 9 AM. You'd need 1/3 the infrastructure then, yes?

[Belly laughing]

I'm going even slower than the bike messenger NY.  Because I hope to fully merge into the speed of pedestrians' walking all the time.  People those pedestrians don't think my EUC (Gotway HS 14" 680kwh) as any type of vehicle nor bike, but part of them.  And they seems to feel the presence of my EUC comfortable all the time.  It is my sense of etiquette I can give the pedestrians.   Most of Koreans are impatient, drivers or pedestrians all the same.  But I'm only enjoying the easy-going world of peace by giving way to others whenever possible.  And in this way my long-suffering is increasing, thanks to God Jesus and his Father.  

[LanghamP]

For all you single guys out there, I'm thinking "one ring or two?" might just be one of the best pickup lines out there.

I use this bell on my bicycle, and used it a few days handheld with my EUC.

Portland Design Works Alexander Graham Bell Steerer Tube Mounted Bell https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CJHCX8E/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_67JnDbN400E66

I do think I'll buy a bell and attach it to my EUC, because I constantly lose lights and bells if they're not attached to th damned EUC.

[BarrettJ]

Sorry if it's already been done, but there's only one proper way to excuse yourself: