THE VIDEO THREAD!

[Rehab1]

8 hours ago, winterwheel said:

So don't push cars around then. Good to know that's off the table.

 

1 hour ago, stephen said:

i think the car pushing was serious over kill to any situation for us normal riding

 

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Fortunately us experienced Gotway riders know how to ride our wheels to prevent this from happening.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Think the firmware of other manufactures don’t allow excessive current.  They know the limits of their wire.  That is why we’ve never seen melted wires in others like king song or inmotion in  @Marty Backe‘s hill tests that cause most of the gotway melted wires.  

@Marty Backe, I say it is another weak point because after your testing causing melted wires, I thought gotway made some changes to the wiring.

Problem is, wires have no fixed limits. It probably depends on how long some current is acting, as the heat dissipation is the problem. So do we use some "nominal" wire current number that is much lower than a what the wire can sustain for shorter times? This is all way too complicated.

Thicker axle, thicker wires, no firmware changes necessary, problem solved Then you could even actually push cars til the wheel warns you due to mosfets getting too hot.

[Gotway did increase their wire diameter after the old ACM/msuper motors had that problem. First there were slightly thicker cables in these motors (16AWG->14AWG) with the same axle thickness, then the thicker axle in their 2000W motor with much thicker cables.]

3 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

I don’t want to have to open the wheel and check the wiring for damage if I did some intense riding.  This is not good no matter how people spin it

You're absolutely right about that. But I don't think this specific stress test shows that wire melting during regular riding can happen, more like it's not going to happen if you can even push a car for minutes. But in principle, you're absolutely right. A wheel should always "work or warn".

2 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

If someone willing to buy me a new wheel I’ll give it a try.  Not willing to throw w]away $2K, I don’t make any money from YouTube to pay for that. LOL

So:

• Other manufacturers wouldn't have that problem, and you could trust their wheels not to break then.
• I don't want to try because I don't trust their wheels to not break then.

  It's the right decision, though, it is still all super-intransparent Chinese engineering that's going on everywhere.

--

But I'd definitely like to see (attempted) destructive testing of other wheel brands. Anybody with too much money around here?

[eddiemoy]

19 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Problem is, wires have no fixed limits. It probably depends on how long some current is acting, as the heat dissipation is the problem. So do we use some "nominal" wire current number that is much lower than a what the wire can sustain for shorter times? This is all way too complicated.

Thicker axle, thicker wires, no firmware changes necessary, problem solved Then you could even actually push cars til the wheel warns you due to mosfets getting too hot.

[Gotway did increase their wire diameter after the old ACM/msuper motors had that problem. First there were slightly thicker cables in these motors (16AWG->14AWG) with the same axle thickness, then the thicker axle in their 2000W motor with much thicker cables.]

You're absolutely right about that. But I don't think this specific stress test shows that wire melting during regular riding can happen, more like it's not going to happen if you can even push a car for minutes. But in principle, you're absolutely right. A wheel should always "work or warn".

So:

• Other manufacturers wouldn't have that problem, and you could trust their wheels not to break then.
• I don't want to try because I don't trust their wheels to not break then.

  It's the right decision, though, it is still all super-intransparent Chinese engineering that's going on everywhere.

--

But I'd definitely like to see (attempted) destructive testing of other wheel brands. Anybody with too much money around here?

You are just moving the problem elsewhere.  If you increase the motor wire, the windings in the motor will burn up.  The controller should be smart enough to know when the wire used will start to burn up by tracking the current it is sending to the motor.  It just doesn't.  It isn't rocket science.  All these things(current, wire size, time, etc) are known and can be calculated when the wire would fail.

GW seem to have moved the problem from their mosfets to the motor wire again.  I still think the solution is in the firmware or controller.  Manufacture knows what they have used and can calculate very closely with safety tolerances.  This is what they are supposed to do.  

I would like to see more attempts at destructive testing too.  This will push these things to be more safe if the manufacture acts on the test results.  Only if.

[meepmeepmayer]

35 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

You are just moving the problem elsewhere.  If you increase the motor wire, the windings in the motor will burn up.

...

Ehh.. you're not wrong At least a burning up motor would be something new...

My dream wheel is still one where the battery is the limit and is monitored, and everything else can just take whatever it throws at it. Motor, cables, mosfets, you name it. But I guess it's not that easy, as in the end, the heat always needs to go somewhere and can accumulate in complex ways.

Maybe motor + mosfets temperature sensors (and thick enough cables everywhere else) is the solution? I'd prefer such a hardware solution to any software thing that will necessarily have to be complicated (these Chinese manufacturers would implement that!) and overly conservative and can't automatically adapt to any situation. If heat is the problem, localize and monitor the heat.

[eddiemoy]

@EUC GUY, I was told if we try this on the KS18L, the fuse would most likely blow and I would have faceplantitis.  KS would not sponsor such attempt.  They already know what would happen.  LOL  Fuse blowing is better I suppose, still have a wheel to ride just have to replace the fuse.

[stephen]

25 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

@EUC GUY, I was told if we try this on the KS18L, the fuse would most likely blow and I would have faceplantitis.  KS would not sponsor such attempt.  They already know what would happen.  LOL  Fuse blowing is better I suppose, still have a wheel to ride just have to replace the fuse.

would that stress on a fuse blow it in the first few seconds or blow after 6 minutes if it's seconds it doesn't make me confident for a small bump/hill??

[eddiemoy]

1 minute ago, stephen said:

would that stress on a fuse blow it in the first few seconds or blow after 6 minutes if it's seconds it doesn't make me confident for a small bump/hill??

From marty's test, the hills were no problem.  No blown fuse.

[stephen]

4 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

From marty's test, the hills were no problem.  No blown fuse.

suppose we could look at better saftey all day as long as things are improving i see it as good, i do like the stress tests though same as martys hill tests for most of us they are overkill but it is nice to know what these can take??

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

Think the firmware of other manufactures don’t allow excessive current.  They know the limits of their wire.  That is why we’ve never seen melted wires in others like king song or inmotion in  @Marty Backe‘s hill tests that cause most of the gotway melted wires.  

@Marty Backe, I say it is another weak point because after your testing causing melted wires, I thought gotway made some changes to the wiring.

Gotway did increase the wire size and improve the connectors (eventually removing them altogether). Frankly I think this car pushing 'test' was of very limited value. I don't think the latest Gotway wheels will burn up anymore under non-car-pushing conditions.

Of course I still hope Gotway eventually employs some engineering like KingSong/Inmotion/Ninebot so it becomes an impossibility.

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

 

 

 

Perfect   You really are our master of photo manipulation.

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, EUC GUY said:

It proves that the msx is a beast and i love it so much . haha
I would like for gotway to change the firmware. current sensoring and alarm when "whatever amount" is exceded. Cables are rated for a fixed amount before they start to melt, have that as the limit and warn the rider. that would be more than enough to prevent this type of failure in the future. easy fix.    right? 

anyway. talked to gotway, new motor being sent 25 september, so next weekend i will have it up and running again

After my ACM wires melted, destroying the motor and control board, I use my Pebble watch to continuously monitor the current. Through some experimentation I determined that a 90-amp alarm setting represents excessive current.

So now, if I'm climbing very steep hills and my Pebble watch starts buzzing for more than ~5-seconds, I stop and let the wheel rest for a few minutes.

This is my solution which I feel very confident in.

[EUCGUY]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

After my ACM wires melted, destroying the motor and control board, I use my Pebble watch to continuously monitor the current. Through some experimentation I determined that a 90-amp alarm setting represents excessive current.

So now, if I'm climbing very steep hills and my Pebble watch starts buzzing for more than ~5-seconds, I stop and let the wheel rest for a few minutes.

This is my solution which I feel very confident in.

Is pebble the best watch for this app or can i use any android watch?

[stephen]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

So now, if I'm climbing very steep hills and my Pebble watch starts buzzing for more than ~5-seconds, I stop and let the wheel rest for a few minutes

is 90 amps enough for the msx or would you go to 100 and still be safe . my pebble watch vibrates to at 90 but it does put me off when it vibrates and i stop hill climbing ,should carry on and see if the vibrations stop .. I'm such a wuss?

[Marty Backe]

42 minutes ago, EUC GUY said:

Is pebble the best watch for this app or can i use any android watch?

It's the only watch to use. WheelLog comes with the Pebble app that runs on the watch. I always wear it to monitor my wheel speed, temperature, and battery levels. And I have speed and current alarms set to keep me safe when I can't hear the beeping or see the wires heating up.

Technically I think you may be able to run WheelLog on an Android watch, but I don't think the vibration alarm feature will work. I don't know for sure though.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, stephen said:

is 90 amps enough for the msx or would you go to 100 and still be safe . my pebble watch vibrates to at 90 but it does put me off when it vibrates and i stop hill climbing ,should carry on and see if the vibrations stop .. I'm such a wuss?

Remember, the same MSX motor is used on the Tesla, ACM2, and Monster. From my experience with all these wheels, 90-amps is still a good number to use.

I will feel the watch buzz periodically when I hit a hard bump or when going up a steep incline. But the vast majority of times it only buzzes momentarily. It's a great feedback mechanism to learn what wheel conditions draw large amounts of current.

It's only when the watch starts to buzz continuously that I'll stop the wheel. This has only happened a few times when I'm in the mountains doing stress testing.

So don't worry about short buzzes. Do worry about continuous buzzing.

@Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" mistakenly set his current alarm to a much higher value and ended up blowing his ACM2 control board when climbing overheat hill with me. Stick with 90-amps. 

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Perfect   You really are our master of photo manipulation.

Was it subtle enough? 

[eddiemoy]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

After my ACM wires melted, destroying the motor and control board, I use my Pebble watch to continuously monitor the current. Through some experimentation I determined that a 90-amp alarm setting represents excessive current.

So now, if I'm climbing very steep hills and my Pebble watch starts buzzing for more than ~5-seconds, I stop and let the wheel rest for a few minutes.

This is my solution which I feel very confident in.

Marty, we need another video on the pebble watch and how to set it up.  Wonder if there is something like that for IOS.

[Boogieman]

17 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

EUC guy found another weak point in the gotway armor...  Melted motor wire.  When I opened my MSX, i notice the motor wires were much smaller than the battery wire.  This test confirms it.  Also confirms there isn't any failsafe.  yes, i understand the extreme condition here, but KS or Inmotion would have overheated and complained.  GW just continues to go and puts the rider in harms way.  they have a long way to go when it comes to safety features.

 

Gotway will solve it by adding the following in their manual leaflet (the sticker in the box lol)

And maybe.. Just to be sure.. this one ?

 

But as a test engineer i agree, Gotway needs to step it up if they want to be in the game now that Xiaomi/NineBot is awake. Still i like that i can CHOOSE wheter i want to turn of all safety just to max out...something that is impossible on xiaomi without custom ROM.

In some time they will be forced to do so as laws will forbid unsafe vehicles.

I can see redundant systems coming, i.e. dual batteries and dual control boards. Dual motor systems and cables will be last i think, but they will figure it out (i.e. dual magnet systems or double sided motors). In the beginning performance will take a hit and price will rise... but with popularity increase i think it will normalize :-)

Edited September 22, 2018 by Boogieman

[Boogieman]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It's the only watch to use. WheelLog comes with the Pebble app that runs on the watch. I always wear it to monitor my wheel speed, temperature, and battery levels. And I have speed and current alarms set to keep me safe when I can't hear the beeping or see the wires heating up.

Technically I think you may be able to run WheelLog on an Android watch, but I don't think the vibration alarm feature will work. I don't know for sure though.

@Marty Backe

Does pebble still work? Do you know for how long? As i read pebble is no more and they keep alive the servers"for now".

1. Will wheellog on pebble work if servers shut down, it seems to be a local app?

2. Id like to get a pebble (should be on sale now as they shut down) but need to know if wheelog will work.

3. Recommendation on model? STRONG VIBRATOR...I GOT THICK SKIN LOL

(And i have allmost missed the beepbeepbeepbeep on my tesla 4times this week without realizing im doing 50+...phone can vibrate as much as it likes when you do 50 on rough asphalt...wont feel a thing lol)

Thks for all your info here:-)

Boogie

Edited September 22, 2018 by Boogieman

[Marcglider]

All is the same with pebble and wheellog with the exception of the website... you need to go to http://rebble.io/ to be able to open wheellog in the pebble app... FitBit bought Pebble and is no longer servicing the users... if you search the threads on this Forum, there are detailed posts regarding all of this...

[fbhb]

4 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

@Marty Backe

Does pebble still work? Do you know for how long? As i read pebble is no more and they keep alive the servers"for now".

1. Will wheellog on pebble work if servers shut down, it seems to be a local app?

2. Id like to get a pebble (should be on sale now as they shut down) but need to know if wheelog will work.

3. Recommendation on model? STRONG VIBRATOR...I GOT THICK SKIN LOL

Thks for all your info here:-)

Boogie

You are safe to go out & buy a Pebble watch to use with WheelLog. The software has been taken over by Rebble, so their servers now allow the use of this invaluable combination to continue. Many of the forum members have recently acquired a Pebble & set up the software in this way.

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, Boogieman said:

@Marty Backe

Does pebble still work? Do you know for how long? As i read pebble is no more and they keep alive the servers"for now".

1. Will wheellog on pebble work if servers shut down, it seems to be a local app?

2. Id like to get a pebble (should be on sale now as they shut down) but need to know if wheelog will work.

3. Recommendation on model? STRONG VIBRATOR...I GOT THICK SKIN LOL

(And i have allmost missed the beepbeepbeepbeep on my tesla 4times this week without realizing im doing 50+...phone can vibrate as much as it likes when you do 50 on rough asphalt...wont feel a thing lol)

Thks for all your info here:-)

Boogie

See what @Marcglider just wrote. The only time that Pebble needs to connect to the Cloud is when first installing the appl. And you can use the new service for that.

Note, the Pebble watch has it's on alarms (WheelLog alarms). It does not detect or report the 3rd alarm (80-percent power) from the Gotway wheel.

I think it's best to develop some safe practices that don't depend on the 3rd alarm, if you want to stay healthy. When you are riding near the 3rd alarm speed you are entering dangerous speeds.

Instead of depending on the 3rd alarm, I have my WheelLog/Pebble set to buzz my wrist at 25-mph at 100-percent battery. When my battery is at 25-percent I have a different alarm that triggers at 20-mph. This is how I attempt to stay safe but still enjoy relatively fast speeds.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Marty Backe

[eddiemoy]

My first contribution to the EUC university!

let me know what you guys think.  And let me know what is your slowest time to ride 20 feet!

 

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by eddiemoy

[Boogieman]

Finally a sweet ride through the city with minor obstacles.

Tuned the tiltback before riding as i noted a lot of continuous beeps this week so preferred to avoid a face plant. Setting it to 48km/h still caused continous when accelerating decent so had to roll back all the way to 43km/h to reach 50 or so at acceel...but of course cruise speed was lowered to around 43-45 but that felt as a good limit. Wheelog id matched with the video (@23.21) except the start that is my "speed tests" to find the correct tiltback-speed and a ride to a good location for video. So not too fast, but a lot of fun...have to get out again now for another ride :-D

 

Passed 3 piquet police vans lined up on the big square, but there are much bigger issues than EUC riders in Sweden, we have the immigration issue causing (dont even want to take those words in my mouth since i know a lot of people think Trump is stupid...trust me..he is not all that crazy) issues that come with that, so a slight speedy "bicyclist" probably passed (righteously so) under "the radar" :-)

 

 

Edit:

Ps, thanks for all replies on pebble guys, will check where i can find one with MONSTER VIBRATION :-) the tesla tiltback is INSANELY SMOOTH, but it is FAR TO LATE if i set it to e.g. 50km/h after noting max alarm at 53km/h@70%battery...even at 85% battery i can pass tiltback amd go into alarm before tiltback activates. the tiltback is bssically to un-agressive, it reacts after the fact. So alm discussions if tiltback can cause a cutout is wrong, its the matter of fact that the tiltback reacts to slow :-) if i would set it to 50km/h and max out accel i i am sure i would face plant if there is 20% power margin left (remember that 20% power is a LOT LESS THAN 20% speed.... especially mixed with accel that uses energy at the square of the accel so....pretty hard to set by an app...this shit should be programmed into the wheel itself based on momentary data)

Edited September 22, 2018 by Boogieman

[winterwheel]

From our  ride last Wednesday evening.

Edited September 23, 2018 by winterwheel