THE VIDEO THREAD!

[ir_fuel]

6 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

My understanding is that an overlean the wheel is still turned on, a cutout the wheel is completely powered down. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. 

It sounds logical but counterintuitive to how I think wheels work. It sounds like:

"oh I can't hold the horizontal position so I'll have to stick to 10 degrees of angle"

"Nope, not working either, going down to 20 degrees of angle"

"Still too much, now we are  at 30 degrees"

In some kind of smooth way. And of course at a certain point the angle will be such that the rider falls off. 

 

But I think it works like:

"I'm falling over forwards, time to add some extra ponies to the motor to counter this"

"Oops, seems we don't have any extra ponies left. Oh well, might as well call it a day"

*BEEP* *BEEP*, shutdown.

 

[kasenutty]

Yeah, but when you scrape yourself off the pavement and go pick your wheel up, it's still turned on in an overlean. At least mine was

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, novazeus said:

do u know this guy? 

how bad was his injuries?

did he blame the wheel or himself?

was it overlean or a cutoff?

inquiring minds wanna know.

I don't know him, but he was responding to questions on Facebook. He had gear on so apparently he was not injured. He blames himself (and of course you could hear the 3rd alarm beeping away in the video). It was a cutout - when you ignore the Gotway 3rd alarm and continue leaning, it eventually doesn't have the power to continue and then stops balancing.

[who_the]

1 hour ago, Evel_Knievel said:

Regardless of whether you call it a cutout, overlean, faceplant or max speed...he asked the wheel to do something it couldn't do and the result is the same. 

Not the same. Words matter.

Cutout = wheel's fault.

Overlean = rider's fault.

Yes, of course the wheel was "off" before the crash.  Because it was overleaned and pushed beyond its limits. 67-volt Gotway have no speed limiter and max out somewhere in the 20's. Finding out exactly where — especially for a novice rider, which this was — can be a painful experience.

20 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

My understanding is that an overlean the wheel is still turned on, a cutout the wheel is completely powered down. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. 

A cutout is an anomalous and abrupt loss of power during operation caused by equipment failure; blown or melted mosfets, wiring, connectors, or other internal components have been known to cause cutouts resulting in crashes. 

An overlean is when a rider applies more forward momentum than the wheel is capable of compensating for. (See inverted pendulum problem.) An overlean is caused by an operator's lack of understanding or awareness of the limitations of their equipment. Experienced riders know precisely what their wheels are capable of. Inexperienced riders have no idea. Most riders fall somewhere in the middle, and should exercise extreme caution anywhere near the "top speed" of their wheel. 

[kasenutty]

You could just say I was right, man

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, who_the said:

Not the same. Words matter.

Cutout = wheel's fault.

Overlean = rider's fault.

Yes, of course the wheel was "off" before the crash.  Because it was overleaned and pushed beyond its limits. 67-volt Gotway have no speed limiter and max out somewhere in the 20's. Finding out exactly where — especially for a novice rider, which this was — can be a painful experience.

A cutout is an anomalous and abrupt loss of power during operation caused by equipment failure; blown or melted mosfets, wiring, connectors, or other internal components have been known to cause cutouts resulting in crashes. 

An overlean is when a rider applies more forward momentum than the wheel is capable of compensating for. (See inverted pendulum problem.) An overlean is caused by an operator's lack of understanding or awareness of the limitations of their equipment. Experienced riders know precisely what their wheels are capable of. Inexperienced riders have no idea. Most riders fall somewhere in the middle, and should exercise extreme caution anywhere near the "top speed" of their wheel. 

I never thought too much about it. Didn't realize that there was a formalized distinction between overlean and cutout.

Good to know so we can all talk the same language in the future (yeah right) 

[meepmeepmayer]

The distinction is important because a cut-out is instant, you're on the ground before you (can) realize something happened; while in an overlean, you actually might have time to react (doing the shoulder roll in the best case).

So one is much worse than the other, and the bad one is also the one you can't control or predict by your behavior (hardware failure vs. ignoring beeps).

[Evel_Knievel]

22 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I never thought too much about it. Didn't realize that there was a formalized distinction between overlean and cutout.

Good to know so we can all talk the same language in the future (yeah right) 

I didn’t realize the formalized distinction either...what I want is wheel with plenty of power that warns we well in advance of me pushing it to it’s limit. I want to avoid all falls whether it’s my fault or the wheel’s fault. 

[Evel_Knievel]

33 minutes ago, who_the said:

Not the same. Words matter.

Cutout = wheel's fault.

Overlean = rider's fault.

Yes, of course the wheel was "off" before the crash.  Because it was overleaned and pushed beyond its limits. 67-volt Gotway have no speed limiter and max out somewhere in the 20's. Finding out exactly where — especially for a novice rider, which this was — can be a painful experience.

A cutout is an anomalous and abrupt loss of power during operation caused by equipment failure; blown or melted mosfets, wiring, connectors, or other internal components have been known to cause cutouts resulting in crashes. 

An overlean is when a rider applies more forward momentum than the wheel is capable of compensating for. (See inverted pendulum problem.) An overlean is caused by an operator's lack of understanding or awareness of the limitations of their equipment. Experienced riders know precisely what their wheels are capable of. Inexperienced riders have no idea. Most riders fall somewhere in the middle, and should exercise extreme caution anywhere near the "top speed" of their wheel. 

How do experienced riders gain the knowledge of what their wheels are capable of? I’d assume it’s by riding enough to have a pretty good idea of what isn’t going to give an alarm, and respecting that alarm. They have to learn by listening to the alarms, right? 

[Demargon]

I'm getting on this of overlean and I have experience something similar but at very low speed, climbing over rocks or jumping from it, the euc seems to slide or overlean. I didn't get a cuttoff battery but I overpass the engine power. Normally the euc recover his balance before I fall but that makes me afraid of a burned MOSFETs in the climbs and some poop comes out in the falls

Edited June 19, 2018 by Demargon

[mrelwood]

 

31 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

But I think it works like:

"I'm falling over forwards, time to add some extra ponies to the motor to counter this"

"Oops, seems we don't have any extra ponies left. Oh well, might as well call it a day"

*BEEP* *BEEP*, shutdown.

If that were the case we’d see quite a bit more faceplants. Most wheels turn off once they reach 45 degrees in any direction. In an overlean, the wheel gives out it’s full power during the 0-45 rotation, which gives the rider a small window to jump/prepare. In a cut-out the wheel is away from under you before a your reaction time has passed.

My brother survived an overlean when trying to balance after a pothole, and he describes the 16S was just barely able to accelerate back under him. The wheel was asked more than it could deliver, but it didn’t cut off, it kept trying. Luckily.

The wheel slipping while braking (= underlean) is a familiar occurence for me with the Lhotz. I tried to brake faster than the wheel could, resulting in pedals starting to tilt more than they should, and a few times me jumping off and running. If the wheel hadn’t given me the reaction time for the 0-45 degrees, there wouldn’t have been anything for me to jump off from.

 

14 minutes ago, who_the said:

Not the same. Words matter.

Cutout = wheel's fault.

Overlean = rider's fault.

Exactly. And I’m pretty sure the damage to the rider differs as well.

[mrelwood]

17 minutes ago, Evel_Knievel said:

How do experienced riders gain the knowledge of what their wheels are capable of? I’d assume it’s by riding enough to have a pretty good idea of what isn’t going to give an alarm, and respecting that alarm. They have to learn by listening to the alarms, right? 

The wheel doesn’t know how much more power the battery or motor is actually able to give. They are all estimates coded in the firmware. Once the battery wears out, the estimates might not be cautious enough. And not all wheels have the 80% warning, just alarms triggered by speed.

I feel that I’m familiar enough with my wheel so that I feel even the slightest extra softness or extra tilt in the pedals. But I don’t accelerate extremely fast, as I’m not interested in learning too closely where the limit actually is.

In the beginning I did watch the power figures from the wheel’s app to have a ballpark of the power consumption under different situations. Later I learned that the maximum power is not available at every speed, so I quit doing that and became a bit more careful.

[Marty Backe]

47 minutes ago, Evel_Knievel said:

How do experienced riders gain the knowledge of what their wheels are capable of? I’d assume it’s by riding enough to have a pretty good idea of what isn’t going to give an alarm, and respecting that alarm. They have to learn by listening to the alarms, right? 

I simply slow down when I hear the 3rd alarm (Gotway). So I should never experience a cutout based on overleaning. And when I buy a new wheel we have spec's from the manufacturer that gives us a flavor for how fast the wheel can go.

Realistically, for Gotway, all of their wheels now have an upper speed that is faster than I'm personally willing to ride (25-mph). So I get a new wheel and just listen for that 3rd alarm which I only sometimes hear as the battery decreases. I've never heard the 3rd alarm on my Monster, MSuper, or ACM2.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Marty Backe

[Bob Eisenman]

Recently recorded Gotway Monster ride videos. Some videos were made with a gimbal mounted camera.

 

 

[who_the]

3 hours ago, Evel_Knievel said:

How do experienced riders gain the knowledge of what their wheels are capable of? I’d assume it’s by riding enough to have a pretty good idea of what isn’t going to give an alarm, and respecting that alarm. They have to learn by listening to the alarms, right? 

Maybe someone does. But very few expert riders I know have learned or ride with alarms on. Actually just one. (Though he is the smartest and wisest of our riding group... Hopefully he reads this and figures out I'm talking about him. )

I've learned mostly from two sources: Falls, and feel. Falls executed under "safe" conditions — pads/gear, somewhat forgiving surface, no cars behind to flatten you — though painful, can deliver valuable intelligence on the capability of your wheel. Since, one way or another, you have exceeded it. Knowing how your wheel behaves and delivers feedback just before and at its limit helps you stay within those boundaries.

That leads to... feel. At some point, after hundreds or thousands of miles/kilometers, one learns to feel where their wheel is on its output curve. At some point, no beeps, buzzers or tiltback are needed to know how close you are to the edge. But there's no way to shortcut that process, and it comes at different times for everybody. So until that time, I definitely recommend using whatever helps keep your riding within safe boundaries, including setting and honoring your alarms at speeds you consider safe.

[who_the]

3 hours ago, kasenutty said:

You could just say I was right, man

Damn autocorrect!

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Bob Eisenman said:

Recently recorded Gotway Monster ride videos. Some videos were made with a gimbal mounted camera.

 

 

Didn't you read the sign that said "Do Not Enter" @ 8:49?  No respect for the law I tell you. 

[maltocs]

15 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 

 

Do you mostly cruise the south side of the park? I was driving along the 134 today and pulled off at Steamers Railroad to ride Griffith for the first time. I rode up rattle snake trail to the skyline trail and to an unmarked peak. That hill is NO JOKE, I googled mapped it later to find that I did about 500ft elevation in about a mile. Knowing the V10F on hills, i took it nice and slow otherwise it would give me an overload warning. I made it to the condor trail and ATTEMPTED to climb the NORTH TRAIL. That one was even steeper. I figured after the 3rd OVERHEAT warning, I should quit and just went back down and took an easier way back to the car. I luckily missed the fires. I think I'm starting to like the flatter trails vs the single tracks. I killed my ankles earlier today at Will Rogers State Park doing single track along the backbone trail. 

So you normally ride the observatory side of the park? are the trails you enjoy THAT STEEP?? (I'll unfortunately be out of town this weekend for your night ride.) 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SHvGxjwU5svBEAm19

 

 

 

[maltocs]

9 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

The Gotway Monster for 5 year olds

 

You sure are confident. Imagine him pushing it and blasting 20mph. Good luck catching him  

yeah, i need to speed limit that thing! i figure if he starts to take off i was just gonna grab his arm or force fall him. he'll thank me for it later... hopefully. The kid does love speed!

[Marty Backe]

Better sound per tips from @eddiemoy

[Yannick Dlsr]

French electric unycle ! (FEUC)

Come ride to France ! 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Yannick Dlsr

[Keith]

11 minutes ago, Yannick Dlsr said:

French electric unycle ! (FEUC)

 Come ride to France ! 

Great video. Funny how the riding improved with each stop for a beer ?

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, maltocs said:

 

Do you mostly cruise the south side of the park? I was driving along the 134 today and pulled off at Steamers Railroad to ride Griffith for the first time. I rode up rattle snake trail to the skyline trail and to an unmarked peak. That hill is NO JOKE, I googled mapped it later to find that I did about 500ft elevation in about a mile. Knowing the V10F on hills, i took it nice and slow otherwise it would give me an overload warning. I made it to the condor trail and ATTEMPTED to climb the NORTH TRAIL. That one was even steeper. I figured after the 3rd OVERHEAT warning, I should quit and just went back down and took an easier way back to the car. I luckily missed the fires. I think I'm starting to like the flatter trails vs the single tracks. I killed my ankles earlier today at Will Rogers State Park doing single track along the backbone trail. 

So you normally ride the observatory side of the park? are the trails you enjoy THAT STEEP?? (I'll unfortunately be out of town this weekend for your night ride.) 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SHvGxjwU5svBEAm19

 

 

 

Yes, I've ridden that trail section. It has some steep sections for sure. I've ridden every trail there, many times. The best views are at the real top of Griffith Park: https://goo.gl/maps/dLJUxERcaRF2

[Bob Eisenman]

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Didn't you read the sign that said "Do Not Enter" @ 8:49? 

I guess not...if it makes a difference it's near the lemonade stand street entrance...Yumm.  I guess my edit out of the 'no motor vehicles' on the Old Eastern Marsh rail trail is worth mentioning too (women with two dogs trail in video). There was a kid on an e-bike (large rear integrated hub motor) who zoomed by me on that Marsh rail trail going the other way and also woman marsh trail walker who said 'you scared me' while I sat on a rock formatting micro SD card.

Locally, when I walked the trash bin to the curb yesterday the new tenant's car, parked on the apt lot, had evidence of a  bumper tap on the corner rear side panel and near the license plate holder. A day or so before we came face to face as I was whizzing out of the lot and he was turning in from the roadway. We both braked to a stop. He looked at the Monster and said 'cool'. It's a war zone out there for cars on roads. The plastic panels used in auto bodies look so  un-attached when stressed and unfastened as a result of collisions. More power to clearly posted signs and following the rules of the roadways ...I guess....it is a war zone out there on the roads though.

 

[Bob Eisenman]

1 hour ago, Bob Eisenman said:

it is a war zone out there on the roads though.

There are better alternatives to the EUC as a dependable distance machine but I haven't put up the cash or made the choice yet.