THE VIDEO THREAD!

[US69]

3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

On second look, it seems to just be a sticker of some sorts on the shell.

Thats a sticker on top of some plexiglas....which unfortunally you have to break open if you want to maintenance the board/wires...

one of the critique points of Gt16 :-(

[US69]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

  That's not a good sign, as the Monster doesn't exactly excel at climbing. Will wait to hear more.

As i understood from a lot french reports the Gt16 is nearly the same as the Acm 84 Volt...its own driver makes up to its not so big batterie.

Yes, it is rated with 500Watt more power...but, it has only 4p20s instead of 6p20s on the Acm, so definitely can not deliver more amps (equals torque)

Russian dynamo tests proved in a test agains the V3s+ that Kilowatt/Kw wise the v3s system had its nose in front, with the gt16 coming in second, before all other wheels on the market (ACM 84 volt not tested yet).

But the GT16 has its own motor "driver", which everyone described as smooth...the best and strongest available Mosfets on the market!

And also one of the badest quality reputations...so as i also had an eye on this wheel i defintly will wait till they worked out all the first version issues...as this were glued board, bad maintenance, footrest attachment, mud guard, not highest mah batteries used....will the issues be worked out? i am not to sure about that :-(

Edited April 1, 2017 by KingSong69

[esaj]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

But the GT16 has its own motor "driver", which everyone described as smooth...the best and strongest available Mosfets on the market!

I just have to nitpick, when it comes to claims like this   They're good, but hardly "the best and strongest available". The IRFB4110's (IRFP4110 for the TO-247 packaging, otherwise the same) used in GT16/ACM/maybe MSuper3 and Monster have an Rds(on) of 4.5 milliohm @ 75A (10V gate drive), (theoretical) maximum continuous current of 180A and a maximum (theoretical) power dissipation of 370W. The price is something like $3.5-4 per piece, of course manufacturers buy in big bulks and get lower prices, but that's just for comparing to these other 100V N-channels:

 

If you go waaay overboard, there's something like this:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ixys/VMO1200-01F/VMO1200-01F-ND/2117560

Theoretical maximum continuous current around 1245A, maximum Rds(on) at 932A is 1.35 milliohms. I didn't even find a number for the maximum theoretical power dissipation, probably several kilowatts. No idea how you'd fit 6 of those in a wheel, plus they cost about $150 a piece 

 

A more realistic choice:

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ixys/IXFK420N10T/IXFK420N10T-ND/2354434

That's in TO-247 like the IRFP4110, there's also TO-264 -packaged version (that's even larger than 247). 420A max current, 2.6 mOhm @ 60A / 10V, 1670W max power dissipation. The price is around $12+ per piece, so about 3-3.5 times more expensive than the IRF[B/P]4110. 

 

These were just a couple of examples I pulled fast out of the Digikey catalog, there are loads of others too. Of course picking the mosfets is not just as simple as taking the ones with the highest numbers vs. the price. For example, the VMO1200 has a very large gate charge, so it could be that the current gate drivers used couldn't even push it into full conduction fast enough, and it would just waste power and heat up more than give power to the motor   But I think I made my point about the "best and strongest"   Best and strongest for the price, maybe?

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by esaj

[dpong]

Geek alert!  

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Don't totally agree here. 

The initial acceleration is not the fastest, but when I double clutch the pedals hard and get the Monster moving up hill, it's pretty powerful.

Relative to other wheels, specifically the ACM, the Monster sucks at climbing hills. I love my Monster, but facts are facts.

[houseofjob]

13 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Relative to other wheels, specifically the ACM, the Monster sucks at climbing hills. I love my Monster, but facts are facts.

Agree to disagree; don't consider this a "fact".

I can push mine hard enough to where it climbs just fine when momentum is gained, maybe there's something wrong with your's.

I've been on plenty of makes and models of EUCs out there that underpower uphill way more than the Monster. I wouldn't consider the Monster close to "suck".

Edited April 1, 2017 by houseofjob

[US69]

3 hours ago, esaj said:

The IRFB4110's (IRFP4110 for the TO-247 packaging, otherwise the same) used in GT16/ACM/maybe MSuper3 and Monster have an Rds(on) of 4.5 milliohm @ 75A (10V gate drive), (theoretical) maximum continuous current of 180A and a ma

hMmm...as i now the Gt16 uses a different Mosfet than the Acm/v3?..but for sure i dont get into technical discussion with YOU....as that is like a first class school boy dicussing with o prof/doctor :-)

I am giving a one sentence opinion and you are blowing that away with a 1000 word science post ;-) ok, i am doctor at Mosfets now also :-)

 

I guess i got that mixed up with the Mosfets of the new KS16s:

IRFP 4368 75V 350A/195A) TO-247

 

[US69]

58 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Agree to disagree; don't consider this a "fact".

I can push mine hard enough to where it climbs just fine when momentum is gained, maybe there's something wrong with your's.

I've been on plenty of makes and models of EUCs out there that underpower uphill way more than the Monster. I wouldn't consider the Monster close to "suck".

i guess you and @Marty Backe are just talking about different things...

Acm/v3/monster all use the same motor....or ok, the monster is stated 100Watts more....(questionable?!)

So from a 84Volt 1500/1600 Watt machine from a 16" to a 22" inch there is for sure the better initial torque and from standstill the better climbing abilities on the 16".....when then the machine is once running(gained momentum)...the available power is the same...so the monster will do its job also but different...

perhaps you can both agree to that ;-)

when i once got from my 14 to a 18 inch, i was gguessing the 18 in torque-start-comparison also "sucks"...just had to learn to handle it different.....and would never go onto a 14 again nowadays :-)

[houseofjob]

@KingSong69 Thanks, that's my point!

Monster initial acceleration sucks (which I compensate for by hard double clutch pulls), but with gained momentum, it climbs just fine~

Edited April 1, 2017 by houseofjob

[esaj]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

hMmm...as i now the Gt16 uses a different Mosfet than the Acm/v3?..but for sure i dont get into technical discussion with YOU....as that is like a first class school boy dicussing with o prof/doctor :-)

Hardly   People seem to think I'm some kind of professional with electronics, but I'm just a hobbyist, could be wrong (see the disclaimer in my sig ) and have a (probably very irritating) way of clinging into minor details  

 

Probably more like I think someone is wrong on the internet...  

 

As for the mosfets, this is one of GT16 -board pics floating in the forums (but I don't know if it's the current design anymore? this was posted towards the end of January):

https://forum.urban360.com/uploads/monthly_2017_01/IMG_0091.thumb.JPG.1205bc2a51bf47cffd6fe6d05bd16509.JPG

(the picture won't embed for some reason)  It's not easy to read, but the mosfets say "IRFP4110"

Here's Rehab1's ACM 1600 from his autopsy-thread adding copper heatsinks, mosfets are IRFB4110's:

AFAIK, the difference between IRFP4110 and IRFB4110 is only the package (TO-247 vs. TO-220).

I don't know if MSuper V3's and Monsters also use the same mosfets, but it would make sense for them to use the same mosfet across the line (at least for the 84V models) to get discounts when buying in large bulks. Not to mention sharing parts of the circuitry between the models to push down the R&D -cost.

Anyway, clearly the IRFx4110 is "good enough" for these wheels, at least I don't remember reading anyone having burned them at least so far (the issues have been with the connectors and too thin wiring). So going "overboard" is probably totally unnecessary, the thing I was criticizing was just calling them the "best and strongest available in the market"

 

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

I guess i got that mixed up with the Mosfets of the new KS16s:

IRFP 4368 75V 350A/195A) TO-247

Now that's a different beast... unfortunately, not usable in the 84V models, as the drain-source voltage would be too high. Now I'm starting to wonder (again) if I should go with the S-model instead of the older KS16(C? or is it D now?)   Still I'd prefer not to be a guinea pig for a brand new model until it's been out for a while

Edited April 1, 2017 by esaj

[US69]

1 hour ago, esaj said:

w that's a different beast... unfortunately, not usable in the 84V models, as the drain-source voltage would be too high. Now I'm starting to wonder (again) if I should go with the S-model instead of the older KS16(C? or is it D now?)   Still I'd prefer not to be a guinea pig for a brand new model until it's been out for a while

From all i get KS and GW are going totally diifferent ways.

And to all Fanboys...no offense meant in any direction!

GW is on the speed and performance road...but overlooking reliability and testing in a bad behavior....

The problems with the wires/ connectors speak for that!

KS is all going for reliability and safety....

They have done so many (unrecognized) changes over their iterations, that they are real underrated at the moment...

KS16S has this beast mosfets, thicker motor connections.....capacitors...and some more board improvements...all these changes have also been implemented on the Ks14d, and latest Version Ks18AY+(sometimes refered Ks18b).....

so safety wise, you are doing no wrong thing in getting a "first" version KS16S...as they do not repeat old faults of older wheels...perhaps check the French forum about it!

KS also still have some quality hickups, like app updates missing, little firmeware faults, (all this is also on GW, but never even talked about as they have more serious probs ;-) )   or delivering wheels not "initialized"...but from the reliability and safety point of their wheels...they will -at least since the last year- never let you stay in the rain like with first versions on GW or Rockwheel....where you never know what you get!

Edited April 1, 2017 by KingSong69

[Hansolo]

4 hours ago, esaj said:

I don't know if MSuper V3's and Monsters also use the same mosfets, but it would make sense for them to use the same mosfet across the line (at least for the 84V models) to get discounts when buying in large bulks. Not to mention sharing parts of the circuitry between the models to push down the R&D -cost.

Same mosfet on MS3+ 1600

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Agree to disagree; don't consider this a "fact".

I can push mine hard enough to where it climbs just fine when momentum is gained, maybe there's something wrong with your's.

I've been on plenty of makes and models of EUCs out there that underpower uphill way more than the Monster. I wouldn't consider the Monster close to "suck".

OK, maybe 'suck' is too strong of a word. But the Monster 'goes' up hills whereas the ACM zooms up hills. I just got back from a group ride in the mountains. As I was leaning hard and going up some steep inclines, the ACM was flying by me.

[abinder3]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

OK, maybe 'suck' is too strong of a word. But the Monster 'goes' up hills whereas the ACM zooms up hills. I just got back from a group ride in the mountains. As I was leaning hard and going up some steep inclines, the ACM was flying by me.

I can definitely vouch for that. 

Parts of our ride today wouldn't enable someone to "gain momentum" before hitting the off-road hills.  That's where the smaller wheel will shine. 

 

Allen

Edited April 2, 2017 by abinder3

[swvision]

the gy16 has 25% stronger magnets also dont forget. the torque should be greater in the gt 16

[abinder3]

11 minutes ago, swvision said:

the gy16 has 25% stronger magnets also dont forget. the torque should be greater in the gt 16

Specs mean nothing without it actually being proved in real life situations. 

 

Allen

[houseofjob]

 

1 hour ago, abinder3 said:

I can definitely vouch for that. 

Parts of our ride today wouldn't enable someone to "gain momentum" before hitting the off-road hills.  That's where the smaller wheel will shine. 

 

Allen

Jeez, when on earth did I ever say the Monster is faster uphill than an ACM, let alone mention the ACM?

Sometimes I wonder if people just read what they want to see on these forums.

Apparently, all those times I thought I was climbing uphill on my Monster, I was standing still *smh

Edited April 2, 2017 by houseofjob

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

17 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

 

Jeez, when on earth did I ever say the Monster is faster uphill than an ACM, let alone mention the ACM?

Sometimes I wonder if people just read what they want to see on these forums.

Apparently, all those times I thought I was climbing uphill on my Monster, I was standing still *smh

Since your current rotation includes the monster as well as the gt16,have you compared the 2 at hill climbing? and if so,what is your insights?

[houseofjob]

Just now, jrkline said:

Since your current rotation includes the monster as well as the gt16,have you compared the 2 at hill climbing? and if so,what is your insights?

*Shhhhh, I can't answer here because the ACM Gestapo is listening.... 

[Marty Backe]

It's a wrap. After 17 days total I'm pretty confident with my backward riding skills. Reversals are mostly successful and in general everything is much smoother. Here's a demonstration of my current skill level along with some parting words.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Marty Backe

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

*Shhhhh, I can't answer here because the ACM Gestapo is listening.... 

I am German and have an ACM so it is okay!

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

32 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

It's a wrap. After 17 days total I'm pretty confident with my backward riding skills. Reversals are mostly successful and in general everything is much smoother. Here's a demonstration of my current skill level along with some parting words.

Nice video.Seeing that shirt and the location of the Gotway stencil makes me thinks that there's a Gou'ald named Gotway.

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, jrkline said:

Nice video.Seeing that shirt and the location of the Gotway stencil makes me thinks that there's a Gou'ald named Gotway.

[houseofjob]

@jrkline Ah, I see you are with them~ 

Then I'll say, both the GT16 and Monster are terrible climbers and the only wheel that can ever have the honor to grace a hill is the almighty ACM, all hail ACM!!!

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Far be it for me to get in between a heated debate, but that's never stopped me before so I'll take a jab!    Let's take a step back and maybe factor in the topographical differences between hills in New York and ones in California which may help explain some variation in people's findings with the Monster's climbing abilities.  Add in rider weight and riding technique along with production differences between wheel batches, and I think it is possible for each party to actually be both correct in their findings.

It seems to me that we are all passionate about our wheels and their unique capabilities and differences.  If they could only hurry up and invent Star Trek beaming technology so we could visit each other to compare notes in person, that would make life easier.  Unfortunately for now as good gentlemen and gentlewomen we should give each other the benefit of the doubt and respect that we all have our unique opinions on matters which may not totally coincide with each others.  

Edited April 2, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love