Attention 3d printer owners......................

[BarrettJ]

18 hours ago, amelanso said:

I am thinking a guy like  @RockyTop who runs 15+ printers simultaneously and who is 3d printing on a commercial scale probably has an authoritative opinion on this...

I mean I'm also doing 3d printing as my day job and half my 3d printers literally don't even have bed leveling knobs (the Prusas) because probes are so much better (and the other half have both and are used in tandem) but sure.

And the people making the firmware that these printers run (and not just Marlin but pretty much every single firmware seems to support probes) seem to agree that probes are better (or a lot of people a lot smarter than me have decided to waste a bunch of their time).

There are tons of printer mods around removing manual leveling system of printers (solid bed mounts) and still more about taking advantage of the precision the probes provide in exactly dialing in the leveling (Nylock mod for Prusa printers)

ALL these people are wasting their time because it's more accurate to just eyeball it than use these machines and computers designed for precise measurement?

Edited June 12, 2020 by BarrettJ

[BarrettJ]

19 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Absolutely! Without a doubt! 
This is not just my opinion. Many of the 3D printer people on YouTube agree. 

Can you please provide links to reputable sources that are saying this instead of just saying that people agree with you (there are plenty of YouTube videos that disagree with you, so just saying "YouTube" doesn't really do much to aid your point)

For my sources on why probes are better - check out:

Check out literally any FDM printer review from the last few years

The marlin firmware - specifically the commits where ABL is implemented and/or modified

Plenty of YouTubers (TeachingTech, Thomas Sanladerer, Chris Riley)

 

 

Edit: Sorry if it seems like I'm coming at this a lot, but I certainly hope that if I was on a 3d printing forum and someone came in talking about PEVs and said "you should disable the BMS and charge without it - it will let you get more charge as a BMS will stop charging at 50% capacity" - I certainly hope someone would correct them on why BMSs are used and that if the BMS is stopping at 50% then it is defective and not a reason to disable all BMSs every where.

Edited June 12, 2020 by BarrettJ

[mike_bike_kite]

Out of mild curiosity, how much would it roughly cost to print a Joris Laarman jigsaw chair? I believe each of the jigsaw bits can be made in an ordinary printer. I'm guessing that the individual parts are not solid.

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, BarrettJ said:

Can you please provide links to reputable sources that are saying this instead of just saying that people agree with you (there are plenty of YouTube videos that disagree with you, so just saying "YouTube" doesn't really do much to aid your point)

For my sources on why probes are better - check out:

Check out literally any FDM printer review from the last few years

The marlin firmware - specifically the commits where ABL is implemented and/or modified

Plenty of YouTubers (TeachingTech, Thomas Sanladerer, Chris Riley)

 

 

Edit: Sorry if it seems like I'm coming at this a lot, but I certainly hope that if I was on a 3d printing forum and someone came in talking about PEVs and said "you should disable the BMS and charge without it - it will let you get more charge as a BMS will stop charging at 50% capacity" - I certainly hope someone would correct them on why BMSs are used and that if the BMS is stopping at 50% then it is defective and not a reason to disable all BMSs every where.

I am speaking to people that are entering the hobby. Most people entering this hobby do not install EZABL on their printers. The EZABL is the only ABL that I have seen that is more accurate than glass is flat. 
I use all of a surface of the larger printers so I am the one that would likely run into trouble if the glass was not flat. Four points  of measurement is all that You need. In my studies the glass is flatter than the BL touch is accurate and a paper feeler gauge is more accurate than the BLtouch and not by just a little. As far as YouTube I have heard many people advise to just turn it off and level the bed yourself, I am giving advice. I am not searching YouTube for videos that I agree with. It is noted that you disagree. I am finished on this topic.
 

If you Do want to play with a cool toy that works great get an EZABL. I have heard good things about them. (Although  I don’t see any need for them) 

[RockyTop]

48 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Out of mild curiosity, how much would it roughly cost to print a Joris Laarman jigsaw chair? I believe each of the jigsaw bits can be made in an ordinary printer. I'm guessing that the individual parts are not solid.

That is cool!! Most places charge a minimum of $2 per hour print time. Each piece looks like 10 - 18 hours to print. 
If you Have a printer and looking at material. You could print about 5- 6 pieces per $22 roll,  

yep! Not cheap!
Printing big is not usually profitable. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by RockyTop

[mike_bike_kite]

46 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

That is cool!! Most places charge a minimum of $2 per hour print time. Each piece looks like 10 - 18 hours to print. 
If you Have a printer and looking at material. You could print about 5- 6 pieces per $22 roll

Jesus, and there was me thinking it might be an interesting way to slide a new bit of artwork in the house. 

[RockyTop]

19 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Jesus, and there was me thinking it might be an interesting way to slide a new bit of artwork in the house. 

Yeah, my log cabin is actually bigger than it looks. 16”Deep X 16” wide 20” tall.
It took 3.5 rolls of wood filament At $34 each and two of the green at $18 each. 

I used it as a way to learn how to use the software and printer. 
 

That reminds me. I still need to print a 20” light up light house for my mother. ( $15) 

Small prints make more sense. $2 of filament can make a $20 part and solve a $100 problem. Many manufacturers these days actually ask if you have a printer when you call and say that their product broke. “ We will eMail a replacement part to you.” “ It is actually better than the original part” 

Edited June 12, 2020 by RockyTop

[BarrettJ]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

I am speaking to people that are entering the hobby. Most people entering this hobby do not install EZABL on their printers. The EZABL is the only ABL that I have seen that is more accurate than glass is flat. 
I use all of a surface of the larger printers so I am the one that would likely run into trouble if the glass was not flat. Four points  of measurement is all that You need. In my studies the glass is flatter than the BL touch is accurate and a paper feeler gauge is more accurate than the BLtouch and not by just a little. As far as YouTube I have heard many people advise to just turn it off and level the bed yourself, I am giving advice. I am not searching YouTube for videos that I agree with. It is noted that you disagree. I am finished on this topic.
 

If you Do want to play with a cool toy that works great get an EZABL. I have heard good things about them. (Although  I don’t see any need for them) 

So you're giving out partial advise at best (your initial post doesn't recommend glass and it doesn't specify that only certain probes are ones you'd disable); you won't give any sources for people agreeing with you, just saying there are some; and you won't even consider looking at any sources that might indicate you're wrong or giving out bad advice - yet you'll still dispense it?

I can see why you'd want to be done with this conversation.

To anyone entering the hobby - don't disable ABL without throughly researching exactly what you're doing.

I'm finished as well now. 

[davinche]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

I am speaking to people that are entering the hobby. Most people entering this hobby do not install EZABL on their printers. The EZABL is the only ABL that I have seen that is more accurate than glass is flat.

I have the EZABL (version 3, not their pro one) as well as 2 BL Touches (V2 and V3). When doing the probe accuracy test, all three are very accurate (extremely close to each other). I only have 2 printers, and both of them use BLTouches. The reason why I swapped out the EZABL for a BLTouch is because the EZABL is sensitive to the heat from your heatbed / hotend. If you only print with one type of material, then EZABL is fine and probes slightly faster than a BLTouch. But if you print with different materials/temperatures, then I would say the BLTouch is better because it does not require you to readjust your z-offset due to the differences in temperature.

Edited June 12, 2020 by davinche

[RockyTop]

2 minutes ago, davinche said:

I have the EZABL (version 3, not their pro one) as well as 2 BL Touches (V2 and V3). When doing the probe accuracy test, all three are very accurate (extremely close to each other). I only have 2 printers, and both of them use BLTouches. The reason why I swapped out the EZABL for a BLTouch is because the EZABL is sensitive to the heat on your heatbed / extruder. If you only print with one type of material, then EZABL is fine and probes slightly faster than a BLTouch. But if you print with different materials/temperatures, then I would say the BLTouch is better because it does not require you to readjust your z-offset due to the differences in temperature.

Well !?   In that case I do not recommend the EZABL. As I have said. I do have two BL touch that work OK. I have to two more that work most of the time and 8 that only crash and cause problems so I turned them off. I do not see any need for them.
In the end you should be looking at the fist layer. You can see if the lines are touching each other properly in the area of the print. ( space between lines - too high,  or squish out -too low.) If the first layer looks like fried bacon in an area. It is Either too thin of the bed is too hot or cold.  What I have learned using the whole print area. If a corner or edge is giving problems, the bed is not level. If the center areas are giving trouble, either your bed is not equal temp in all areas or the ABL is messed up. So you adjust the temp up then down then turn off the ABL. Unfortunately every filament and filament color reacts differently. Some are going to like a thicker first layer while others thinner.
I can print 24-7 for a month without any problems simply by manually leveling the bed. I have to thoroughly clean the fans and Hotend , replace Short Bowden tube and nozzle, move or replace the drive gear, check the belts and pulleys every month. When I get done I spend two minutes checking the bed level. If I do that I don’t have any leveling problems. 
 

This is a tricky hobby. People are going to disagree. Do your research. Find what works for you. There are many roads to travel. 
 

I like gadgets but I am a utilitarian. For me it has to solve a problem not creat one. 
 

[davinche]

13 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

This is a tricky hobby. People are going to disagree. Do your research. Find what works for you. There are many roads to travel. 
 

I like gadgets but I am a utilitarian. For me it has to solve a problem not creat one. 
 

Yep. Agreed. Like i said, my two printers have been calibrated and gives me no problems. Glass works. Masking tape works. People just need to find a solution that works for them. I use an ABL because I like using flex plates

[RockyTop]

I don’t use flexible surfaces very often. I can see how they could be very handy for some prints. I have a small 235mm by 235 flex plate that I tape to the center of the glass Bed with masking tape when I need it.
That reminds me. Creality has two features that let you restart a print. The filament run out switch and the ability to restart a print after the power goes out. When you watch reviews they usually say that these functions work but don’t act very happy about it. When I receive the printer the software turns off the bed when the filament runs out. Then when it restarts it resets 0 and never lines up on X or Y quite right. I fixed both problems in software. Now when the filament runs out it keeps the bed on, lifts the hotend 20mm moves to the back left corner where I have two magnetic switches that either sends me a text that printer  ___ has finished (switch 1 )or run out of filament (switch 2. ) after I replace the filament it remembers where it was and continues the print without reseting 0. 
My question is, is anyone having better luck with the factory settings on the resume feature after charging the filament? 
 

Note: switches are easy To set up on the Cube printers. The hotend does not actually raise the hotend 20mm it drops the bed 20mm. You can easily place magnetic switches in The corners that activate when the printer finishes. The switch can activate a buzzer or turn on a remote red table lamp using a WiFi plug or activate an alarm on a video surveillance or security system that sends a text. It was less expensive and easier than setting up 14 octoprints. The switches were free and the video surveillance system was old and almost tossed. Now I can use it to see my printers and send me alerts. I use Kesa switches to kill a printer remotely if needed. 

[redsnapper]

RAFT OR BRIM - I know raft uses more filament but my prints using brim have a higher rate of failure (poor adhesion,delam from bed,etc.)... Maybe I am not using ideal temps for bed/extrud.?

[RockyTop]

Before making the software changes I would just use masking tape to tape the brim to the glass bed for insurance. it worked well and is easy to do when the bed does not move. The real problem that I had was that the printer would reset the X and Y  and end up printing off by a 1mm.  The print became useless. 

[redsnapper]

1 minute ago, RockyTop said:

Before making the software changes I would just use masking tape to tape the brim to the glass bed for insurance. it worked well and is easy to do when the bed does not move. The real problem that I had was that the printer would reset the X and Y  and end up printing off by a 1mm.  The print became useless. 

my issue is as the brim is getting painted to the bed, there will be an early stray that then catches the extruder on the next pass then it just gets worse and you have to scrap and start again. Can`t mask the brim until it is printed :-(

[EUCGUY]

5 minutes ago, amelanso said:

my issue is as the brim is getting painted to the bed, there will be an early stray that then catches the extruder on the next pass then it just gets worse and you have to scrap and start again. Can`t mask the brim until it is printed :-(

For this, you normally add a start script that primes the extruder.  gets rid of the first few cm of plastic before it starts.
Personally, i have a line extruded on the far left side, half the buildt-plate, then once done, retraction and quickly moves to startpoint for printing

[RockyTop]

4 minutes ago, amelanso said:

my issue is as the brim is getting painted to the bed, there will be an early stray that then catches the extruder on the next pass then it just gets worse and you have to scrap and start again. Can`t mask the brim until it is printed :-(

Yes!!  the stickest thing on earth is the nozzle on the next pass.    Good info.  I had that problem with SUNLU filament. eSun sticks nicely. When I have that problem it is easier on cube printer to fix. The table does not move. On larger prints you can just  use a razor to quickly cut the stray off before the hotend comes back around.  I have also found that cleaning the bed with cleaners that do not leave a residue behind helps. On glass I just use a razor. I used the tape to hold the print down in case the power went out and let the bed cool. 

[Jim Martin]

On 6/7/2020 at 9:09 PM, RockyTop said:

More tips / info on the Creality printers. 

4) I can't prove that all metal extuders are better but they have to be. ....... because ....... they just are! 

5) All metal hotends.  I have one ender 5 plus with a Micro Swiss that works very nicely.  I had three with all metal Micro Swiss hotends. I swapped two of them back. What they do not tell you is that even though the all metal hotend saves your bowned tube and allows you to print at higher temps they have more friction and make things more temperamental and the temps fluctuate more. That said, some of my best prints have come from an all metal Micro Swiss. 

I have Micro Swiss hotends on my CR10s Pro.  I'm about to go back to the original hotend.  For the life of me I can't get things dialed in with the all metal hotends.  Also, the dual Z axis on this printer is brutal.  One side is always out of alignment.

[.....]

So much good info here guys. It really does seem like a fun yet finicky hobby. I'm still a couple weeks out from my printer shipping, but Im sure I can stay plenty busy learning software for the duration. The ONLY reason Im having to wait, is the creality v3 has an all metal hotend and I was under the impression that this was a good thing? Sounds to me like its all a roll of the dice and having to readjust and realign and replace parts is about the norm? What are you guys suggesting for a newbie to have for filaments? Is it wise to buy up a few different types for starters, or just buy a big ole cheap roll of pla? Will the learning curve be hampered by cheaper filaments, so its wise to buy quality from the go? Or is it one of those things that operator error for the first $300 worth of filament, is going to negate bothering to buy expensive?

[RockyTop]

5 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

I have Micro Swiss hotends on my CR10s Pro.  I'm about to go back to the original hotend.  For the life of me I can't get things dialed in with the all metal hotends.  Also, the dual Z axis on this printer is brutal.  One side is always out of alignment.

I have had good luck with the Micro Swiss all metal hotends.  I just don't need them on all of my printers.  I don't think that they would work as well if I did not use direct drive (close proximity drive)

I hear that the z screws on the CR10s pro are trouble. I almost got a CR10s pro. I was going to mechanically lock both screws together. You can print a kit for that from thingaverse. The Ender 5 plus surprisingly does not have that problem. I just don't see why the CR10s pro cost more than the Ender 5 plus. 

[RockyTop]

18 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

So much good info here guys. It really does seem like a fun yet finicky hobby. I'm still a couple weeks out from my printer shipping, but Im sure I can stay plenty busy learning software for the duration. The ONLY reason Im having to wait, is the creality v3 has an all metal hotend and I was under the impression that this was a good thing? Sounds to me like its all a roll of the dice and having to readjust and realign and replace parts is about the norm? What are you guys suggesting for a newbie to have for filaments? Is it wise to buy up a few different types for starters, or just buy a big ole cheap roll of pla? Will the learning curve be hampered by cheaper filaments, so its wise to buy quality from the go? Or is it one of those things that operator error for the first $300 worth of filament, is going to negate bothering to buy expensive?

One of the tricky parts is that so many problems cause the same results.

Hotend -Too hot, too cold, too fast too slow, not enough fan, heat creep, loose, warn or gaped  bowden tube, warn drive gear  result in a clogged nozzle.

Bed - too hot, too clod, too thick too thin, not level or leave the economy mode on and you loose bed adhesion. 

Under normal conditions you could buy just about any PLA and do just fine. In today's times and as a beginner I would suggest Hatchbox or eSun  PLA. This would eliminate blaming the filament for bad prints. One less thing to worry about.  You can learn a lot on one roll of filament as long as you don't print big.

[.....]

looking at esun, looks like it comes in pla and pla+?  I'd like to agree with your point. Even tho I will be printing lots of mistakes, its not a bad idea to get good filament, so at least I don't have to fight or get to blame it as well. Would it be a good idea to get a small roll of the other types of filament as well, just to try and learn those, or is pla (maybe pla+) the one used 99% of the time on most projects?

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[davinche]

2 hours ago, Jim Martin said:

I have Micro Swiss hotends on my CR10s Pro.  I'm about to go back to the original hotend.  For the life of me I can't get things dialed in with the all metal hotends.  Also, the dual Z axis on this printer is brutal.  One side is always out of alignment.

Are you using a genuine microswiss? There are a bunch of knockoffs.. and those just don't work.

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

Under normal conditions you could buy just about any PLA and do just fine. In today's times and as a beginner I would suggest Hatchbox or eSun  PLA. This would eliminate blaming the filament for bad prints. One less thing to worry about.  You can learn a lot on one roll of filament as long as you don't print big.

I second this. But am also going to add Amazon Basics PLA since i've had good experiences with them.

Before printing though, I would run an extrusion steps calibration:

 

For each roll of filament, personally I run 3 tests (which you may or may not want to do as well to dial in the settings)

1) Extrusion Multiplier:
Determines how much filament to push through the hotend. I print a 25x25mm cube, 0 infill, 0 top layer such that it only prints the walls.
Eg: if my nozzle is 0.4mm, and I print with "2 walls", then my desired wall thickness should be 0.8mm. I print with 100% extrusion multiplier, then after the print I use calipers to measure the thickness. If the thickness is off, do some ratio math and find out what the extrusion multiplier should be.

2) Heat Tower Test:
Since filaments have a recommended range of temperatures (eg: 190 - 230 for pla), you can print a tower such that at certain points it switches temperatures. The tower helps you visually inspect which temperature is best for your printer.

example temperature tower: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2625999

3) Retraction Test:
Helps dial in retraction settings to reduce stringiness. Different hotends will have different retraction settings.
Eg: Bowden: can range from 2mm to 12mm (creality cat gcode has 12mm of retraction)
Eg: All Metal: 0.2 - 3mm

More info here:

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by davinche

[RockyTop]

3 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

looking at esun, looks like it comes in pla and pla+?  I'd like to agree with your point. Even tho I will be printing lots of mistakes, its not a bad idea to get good filament, so at least I don't have to fight or get to blame it as well. Would it be a good idea to get a small roll of the other types of filament as well, just to try and learn those, or is pla (maybe pla+) the one used 99% of the time on most projects?

 

PLA + and PLA pro are stronger and usually print at a slightly higher temp. It is actually pretty good stuff. I have uses for nylon too. The PLA prints without smell or many other addition problems. I think that you will find the PLA pro more useful than you think.  

[.....]

Looking at matterhackers. It seems like the pla Pro made in usa is quite a bit more. I dont mind, IF its a quality product. Always good to support local as possible. Is there a specific nylon you could suggest? I'm thinking I'll have a need for parts that can withstand temps for use in hot cars or under hoods for cable mounts. Tpu seems handy for softer cases and such?  So many choices and so confusing. Im not really trying to spend more than $150 for basic starter filament. I mean hell, theres also a good chance I'll never get the damn thing figured out.

Edited June 15, 2020 by ShanesPlanet