Realistic mileage before FUBAR?

[Roo Williams]

I know we've got a few members that have ridden their machines to death, so was wondering what kind of mileages people are getting out of EUCs before the major components fail? I'm talking motor and battery... things that are super costly to replace to the point where you say 'I'll just get that new one over there'.

I ask selfishly as I'd love to gauge how long I can expect my Tesla to last if I don't have any catastrophic bails. I got a wrong reading from it when I mentioned my mileage the other day, but I think I'm at around 450 miles so far last time I checked. That's accumulated over 2 months, so I'll say I'd do around 3000 miles in a year (450 * 6 to get 12 months use, plus 300 miles extra buffer)

Based on the collective knowledge of this community we might be able to take a shot at lifespans.

HOW FUN!

[meepmeepmayer]

I can't recall many reports of boards/mosfets just dying without other causes (big stresses) after they survived the first "ok, one of them was subpar from the start" phase. And there are quite some wheels with 10000+ km out there. (Gotway) boards tend to die early or not at all.

So I'd say the battery is the limiting factor, and it won't suddenly stop, just get gradually weaker. With your Tesla (assuming 1020Wh), one charge cycle is about 60km (50km range for 100% to 20% battery means 62.5km for 100% to 0%), and batteries get notably weaker after... 500 cycles? 1000 cycles? More? I really don't know (also depends on how you treat your batteries). That would be 30000km/20000 miles or 60000km/40000 miles respectively. In other words, very far.

So realistically, it's surprise board boom (not likely), mechanical damage (some bad crash or general material failure, depends a lot on how and where you ride) that will make you give up on repairs, or most likely simply the urge to upgrade to the shiny new models that came out before the ~7 year minimum lifetime of your Tesla is up (20k miles/3k miles per year = 7 years)

Of course, that's a guess, we'll only know for sure when more time has passed. Haven't heard of wheels systematically dying from old age (old range?) yet.

[WARPed1701D]

I agree with @meepmeepmayer, and honestly even if a board or motor blows they are relatively cheap compared to batteries thus making a repair much more economical then buying a new wheel. Failing a fall that smashes all the casing to bits I think battery life is all you have to worry about when it comes to longevity and affordable repairs and you can take steps to extend the cell lifespan considerably if you want to.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Roo Williams said:

I know we've got a few members that have ridden their machines to death, so was wondering what kind of mileages people are getting out of EUCs before the major components fail? I'm talking motor and battery... things that are super costly to replace to the point where you say 'I'll just get that new one over there'.

I ask selfishly as I'd love to gauge how long I can expect my Tesla to last if I don't have any catastrophic bails. I got a wrong reading from it when I mentioned my mileage the other day, but I think I'm at around 450 miles so far last time I checked. That's accumulated over 2 months, so I'll say I'd do around 3000 miles in a year (450 * 6 to get 12 months use, plus 300 miles extra buffer)

Based on the collective knowledge of this community we might be able to take a shot at lifespans.

HOW FUN!

I think @who_the said he has over 4000-miles on his MSuper V3s+ which can't be much more than a year old. Based on his usage, you're barely using yours 

[Roo Williams]

35 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I can't recall many reports of boards/mosfets just dying without other causes (big stresses) after they survived the first "ok, one of them was subpar from the start" phase. And there are quite some wheels with 10000+ km out there. (Gotway) boards tend to die early or not at all.

So I'd say the battery is the limiting factor, and it won't suddenly stop, just get gradually weaker. With your Tesla (assuming 1020Wh), one charge cycle is about 60km (50km range for 100% to 20% battery means 62.5km for 100% to 0%), and batteries get notably weaker after... 500 cycles? 1000 cycles? More? I really don't know (also depends on how you treat your batteries). That would be 30000km/20000 miles or 60000km/40000 miles respectively. In other words, very far.

So realistically, it's surprise board boom (not likely), mechanical damage (some bad crash or general material failure, depends a lot on how and where you ride) that will make you give up on repairs, or most likely simply the urge to upgrade to the shiny new models that came out before the ~7 year minimum lifetime of your Tesla is up (20k miles/3k miles per year = 7 years)

Of course, that's a guess, we'll only know for sure when more time has passed. Haven't heard of wheels systematically dying from old age (old range?) yet.

Thanks @meepmeepmayer, great post! That makes me happy, obviously I'm already eyeing up the new models, Z10 in particular. I think that's pretty good info for most people to know too.

My battery rarely gets below 70%, I charge it once, sometimes twice a day to keep it around 100. I haven't taken the time to read and really understand battery chemistry but I know dropping it low isn't particularly good, so hopefully that's keeping it in check.

 

 

[Roo Williams]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I think @who_the said he has over 4000-miles on his MSuper V3s+ which can't be much more than a year old. Based on his usage, you're barely using yours 

Well that's f'n great news! 

I really want to be out on it more, but around work, dog and fiancee there are only so many hours left in the day. Summer's coming and with longer, warmer nights I anticipate more joy rides rather than just commutes.

[WARPed1701D]

9 minutes ago, Roo Williams said:

Thanks @meepmeepmayer, great post! That makes me happy, obviously I'm already eyeing up the new models, Z10 in particular. I think that's pretty good info for most people to know too.

My battery rarely gets below 70%, I charge it once, sometimes twice a day to keep it around 100. I haven't taken the time to read and really understand battery chemistry but I know dropping it low isn't particularly good, so hopefully that's keeping it in check.

From the Z10 talk It sounds like battery longevity isn't going to be much of an issue on the Tesla for you.  But if not then I'd reconsider the 100% routine charging. Operating from 80% to 50% instead will help considerably. 70% to 40% should also be fine if you are concerned about the risks of low battery. This change alone could double or triple the life of the battery. Also, when commuting you can almost guarantee your distance to ride and times of the day you will travel so charge accordingly. I know my V8 takes 30 minutes to replace the charge lost from my commute (each way) so I only put it on charge about an hour before I ride to work/home. That still allows 30 minutes for the cells to rest after I turn the charger off and the result is that for most of the day/night the battery sits at about 50% charge. This is good for longevity and requires little to no effort to do.

[Roo Williams]

1 minute ago, WARPed1701D said:

From the Z10 talk It sounds like battery longevity isn't going to be much of an issue on the Tesla for you.  But if not then I'd reconsider the 100% routine charging. Operating from 80% to 50% instead will help considerably. 70% to 40% should also be fine if you are concerned about the risks of low battery. This change alone could double or triple the life of the battery. Also, when commuting you can almost guarantee your distance to ride and times of the day you will travel so charge accordingly. I know my V8 takes 30 minutes to replace the charge lost from my commute (each way) so I only put it on charge about an hour before I ride to work/home. That still allows 30 minutes for the cells to rest after I turn the charger off and the result is that for most of the day/night the battery sits at about 50% charge. This is good for longevity and requires little to no effort to do.

So it's better to charge to 80 rather than 100%? My commute usually uses around 20% max so that's no problem. 

[WARPed1701D]

 

32 minutes ago, Roo Williams said:

So it's better to charge to 80 rather than 100%? My commute usually uses around 20% max so that's no problem. 

Absolutely! Li-Ion cells degrade faster when under the stress of at higher charges. Dropping to max charge voltage reduces the stress considerably. Have a read of this respected page and explore the site further if battery tech interest you.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

TLDR;, short discharge cycles at a mid level of charge offers the best life for a Li-Ion battery.

Remember though that we use many cells all tied together and over time weaker cells will drain quicker than stronger ones and will also accept less charge back into them per minute on charge (it is an internal resistance thing). This can result in an imbalance in the cells and the weaker ones can compromise the whole pack if not addressed. To counter this we occasionally perform a balancing charge. This is where the wheel is charged to 100% and then left on charge for a few hours extra. During this additional time the BMS will allow power to keep trickling into the weaker cells that still have some capacity while shunting it around the ones that are already brimming full. The end result is that all cells gain equal charge again and the imbalance is reset. You should do this about once every 10 or so full discharge cycles. As you consume about 20% per ride and so 5 rides makes a 100% discharge cycle it means you should balance at least every 50 ride/partial charges. I'd probably do it a little sooner though.

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, Roo Williams said:

So it's better to charge to 80 rather than 100%? My commute usually uses around 20% max so that's no problem. 

I still think all of this babying of the batteries is overkill, but I have multiple wheels so maybe I'm more lax than I should be.

I use a wheel and than stick it on the charger and then unplug it later in the day or the next day when I remember.

These batteries are conservatively good for 500-charges before a measurable decrease in performance occurs. And one recharge is from ~10 to 100-percent. I don't even know where the 500 value comes from.

Now since I have multiple wheels, my most heavily used wheel has seen less than 25 recharges in one year. And most of those recharges did not start at a low of 10%. The odds of me having a wheel more than 3-years is extremely low. You can see why I don't care about the batteries.

I would venture that even on your recharge rate you won't consume a full 500-charges within 2-years. And even then your battery capacity change will probably be barely noticeable.

You don't think that you'll be wanting to upgrade to newer technology two years from now?

So I say just plug the wheel into the outlet as much as you want and ride the wheel and have fun. It'll outlive your interest in the wheel.

[Roo Williams]

12 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

 

Absolutely! Li-Ion cells degrade faster when under the stress of at higher charges. Dropping to max charge voltage reduces the stress considerably. Have a read of this respected page and explore the site further if battery tech interest you.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

TLDR;, short discharge cycles at a mid level of charge offers the best life for a Li-Ion battery.

Remember though that we use many cells all tied together and over time weaker cells will drain quicker than stronger ones and will also accept less charge back into them per minute on charge (it is an internal resistance thing). This can result in an imbalance in the cells and the weaker ones can compromise the while pack if not addressed. To counter this we occasionally perform a balancing charge. This is where the wheel is charged to 100% and then left on charge for a few hours extra. During this additional time the BMS will allow power to keep trickling into the weaker cells that still have some capacity while shunting it around the ones that are already brimming full. The end result is that all cells gain equal charge again and the imbalance is reset. You should do this about once every 10 or so full discharge cycles. As you consume about 20% per ride and so 5 rides makes a 100% discharge cycle it means you should balance at least every 50 ride/partial charges. I'd probably do it a little sooner though.

Great, thanks for distilling that for me! Much appreciated.

[Roo Williams]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You don't think that you'll be wanting to upgrade to newer technology two years from now?

So I say just plug the wheel into the outlet as much as you want and ride the wheel and have fun. It'll outlive your interest in the wheel.

I already want to upgrade after 2 months. I'd love the new M Super for day tripping and the Z10 for city riding.

[WARPed1701D]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I still think all of this babying of the batteries is overkill, but I have multiple wheels so maybe I'm more lax than I should be.

I use a wheel and than stick it on the charger and then unplug it later in the day or the next day when I remember.

These batteries are conservatively good for 500-charges before a measurable decrease in performance occurs. And one recharge is from ~10 to 100-percent. I don't even know where the 500 value comes from.

Now since I have multiple wheels, my most heavily used wheel has seen less than 25 recharges in one year. And most of those recharges did not start at a low of 10%. The odds of me having a wheel more than 3-years is extremely low. You can see why I don't care about the batteries.

I would venture that even on your recharge rate you won't consume a full 500-charges within 2-years. And even then your battery capacity change will probably be barely noticeable.

You don't think that you'll be wanting to upgrade to newer technology two years from now?

So I say just plug the wheel into the outlet as much as you want and ride the wheel and have fun. It'll outlive your interest in the wheel.

But in a discussion about longevity of a wheel this is highly relevant. The battery is the most expensive component. Your regime of using the wheel, charging it to brimming, and then letting it sit around at full charge while you use one of the others in your stable is the fastest way to kill a decent (and expensive) battery. Essentially they sit at 100% almost all their life. That means about a 20% drop in capacity over 12 months (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries)!

What is right for one person is not for the other. As you say you have a plethora of wheels to ride and the ability to routinely buy new before the ones you ride show signs of age. Many of us only have the one wheel though and it is a significant financial investment. Taking a few steps to look after you battery is really not that difficult and reaps only benefits. Use a charge doctor and there is next to no additional effort.

Even though you don't keep your wheels long enough to worry I am perplexed that given your desire for huge battery capacities you are fine to essentially treat the cells so poorly and lose the range you so greatly prize.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

But in a discussion about longevity of a wheel this is highly relevant. The battery is the most expensive component. Your regime of using the wheel, charging it to brimming, and then letting it sit around at full charge while you use one of the others in your stable is the fastest way to kill a decent (and expensive) battery. Essentially they sit at 100% almost all their life. That means about a 20% drop in capacity over 12 months (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries)!

What is right for one person is not for the other. As you say you have a plethora of wheels to ride and the ability to routinely buy new before the ones you ride show signs of age. Many of us only have the one wheel though and it is a significant financial investment. Taking a few steps to look after you battery is really not that difficult and reaps only benefits. Use a charge doctor and there is next to no additional effort.

Even though you don't keep your wheels long enough to worry I am perplexed that given your desire for huge battery capacities you are fine to essentially treat the cells so poorly and lose the range you so greatly prize.

I have two wheels (ACM & Monster) rapidly approaching 1-1/2 years old. I notice zero degradation in battery capacity - and I take long rides where I would notice a drop in capacity. Like you say, some of my wheels will sit for weeks at 100-percent. I don't see anything.

I'm seriously interested in the answer to this question. Do you have any first or second hand knowledge of peoples wheels losing battery capacity? Or is it all theoretical or based on phone battery usage, etc.

I just don't recall anybody here or elsewhere complaining about their battery deteriorating because of their charging habits.

15 minutes ago, Roo Williams said:

I already want to upgrade after 2 months. I'd love the new M Super for day tripping and the Z10 for city riding.

Exactly 

[WARPed1701D]

23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I have two wheels (ACM & Monster) rapidly approaching 1-1/2 years old. I notice zero degradation in battery capacity - and I take long rides where I would notice a drop in capacity. Like you say, some of my wheels will sit for weeks at 100-percent. I don't see anything.

I'm seriously interested in the answer to this question. Do you have any first or second hand knowledge of peoples wheels losing battery capacity? Or is it all theoretical or based on phone battery usage, etc. 

I just don't recall anybody here or elsewhere complaining about their battery deteriorating because of their charging habits.

All I know is what I read from respected sources about Li-Ion tech and what I learned on here from respected members. I've yet to retest the capacity of my V8 after 8 months of ownership (I performed benchmark capacity tests just after I brought it to specifically look for degradation over time) to provide a first hand observation. That said, I see no reason to disbelieve understood chemical processes or to think installation in an EUC would magically allow the ageing of the cells to go against the generally observed results. Maybe your house is really cold! Or you wheel-god status makes you immune to such things

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

All I know is what I read from respected sources about Li-Ion tech and what I learned on here from respected members. I've yet to retest the capacity of my V8 after 8 months of ownership (I performed benchmark capacity tests just after I brought it to specifically look for degradation over time) to provide a first hand observation. That said, I see no reason to disbelieve understood chemical processes or to think installation in an EUC would magically allow the ageing of the cells to go against the generally observed result of aging. Maybe your house is really cold! Or you wheel-god status makes you immune to such things

The fact that you would have to "retest" your V8 capacity to check it's life leads me to believe that you wouldn't find anything of note.

If our batteries degrade but its degradation doesn't enter our consciousness, than it's in the noise. I'm certainly not saying that batteries don't degrade over time and usage, but I think in the context of how we use our wheels, it's not noticeable.

I'm still waiting to read a posting where someone says their range is noticeably decreased on a wheel that isn't older than 3-years.

My oldest ACM has sat at 100-percent charge every day over the last 1-1/2 years except for the ~25 days that I used it My range is still fantastic.

We all have our own experiences. I'm just throwing mine out their as a counter to the "baby your batteries" view.

[Roo Williams]

15 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

Maybe your house is really cold!

WAIT keeping batteries cold is a good thing too?! ? I'll keep my EUC in the porch.

[Marty Backe]

15 minutes ago, Roo Williams said:

WAIT keeping batteries cold is a good thing too?! ? I'll keep my EUC in the porch.

Someone just now posted a comment to one of my videos saying that he has over 6000km on his V8. He uses it for everything.

[WARPed1701D]

22 minutes ago, Roo Williams said:

WAIT keeping batteries cold is a good thing too?! ? I'll keep my EUC in the porch.

Long term storage in cool conditions (just above freezing) is a good way to prevent ageing of cells for longer term storage but it is a terrible idea for a EUC in regular use. Cold cells have a severely inhibited ability to provide the high discharge currents we need to keep us balanced in adverse conditions and are to be avoided when riding. If your battery becomes cold due to spending any length of time in a cold environment (car trunk, porch, etc) always allow them to warm up again before use and if you ride in cold conditions be very considerate of their reduced ability to provide current as they cool off during longer rides.

[WARPed1701D]

28 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The fact that you would have to "retest" your V8 capacity to check it's life leads me to believe that you wouldn't find anything of note.

I rarely have the opportunity to ride it far enough in one hit to routinely test the range. I basically always operate in the 40%-75% battery range so a reduction of total capacity is not apparent...but it doesn't mean I want it to do it.

[Jerome]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I still think all of this babying of the batteries is overkill, but I have multiple wheels so maybe I'm more lax than I should be.

I use a wheel and than stick it on the charger and then unplug it later in the day or the next day when I remember.

These batteries are conservatively good for 500-charges before a measurable decrease in performance occurs. And one recharge is from ~10 to 100-percent. I don't even know where the 500 value comes from.

Now since I have multiple wheels, my most heavily used wheel has seen less than 25 recharges in one year. And most of those recharges did not start at a low of 10%. The odds of me having a wheel more than 3-years is extremely low. You can see why I don't care about the batteries.

I would venture that even on your recharge rate you won't consume a full 500-charges within 2-years. And even then your battery capacity change will probably be barely noticeable.

You don't think that you'll be wanting to upgrade to newer technology two years from now?

So I say just plug the wheel into the outlet as much as you want and ride the wheel and have fun. It'll outlive your interest in the wheel.

What he said. Wheels are throw-away items as far as I am concern (if battery is done), and less we confuse me as being among the leisure class, I don't have very much disposal income. Three years for a $1500 wheel is $500/per year for 12 moths of joy! Treat your family and friends to a nice dinner out and that $500 is burbled out in less than 3 hours. I charge after use and take off charger when I remember. If I could have gotten 6 years instead of three year use so be it. I don't need no stink-in 6 year-old wheel.? Unlike Marty I will using one EUC, so it should be interesting to see how I fare.?

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Jerome said:

What he said. Wheels are throw-away items as far as I am concern (if battery is done), and less we confuse me as being among the leisure class, I don't have very much disposal income. Three years for a $1500 wheel is $500/per year for 12 moths of joy! Treat your family and friends to a nice dinner out and that $500 is burbled out in less than 3 hours. I charge after use and take off charger when I remember. If I could have gotten 6 years instead of three year use so be it. I don't need no stink-in 6 year-old wheel.? Unlike Marty I will using one EUC, so it should be interesting to see how I fare.?

[Master Blaster]

We could assume that Marty & his Batteries are “Very Well Balanced” eh

?

[Hatchet]

Replacing the parts one by one as it ages reminds me of the paradox Ship of Theseus;

The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, insomuch that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.

— Plutarch, Theseus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

[GoinPostal]

11 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I think @who_the said he has over 4000-miles on his MSuper V3s+ which can't be much more than a year old. Based on his usage, you're barely using yours 

That is amazing. Mine died at 5 miles. I can honestly say I wish it hadn’t. Nearly soured me on the whole hobby. 

The MSuper X is looking pretty bad a55! I will be watching this one with great interest. I heard Tishawn has a review vid out, but I can’t find it. I hear the mounting screws are the type KingSong uses.. if they upped the shell plastic, wiring, mosfets, and overall engineering, we may have a winner. I really like what little I have seen of it.