My Inmotion V10F Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[Bob Yan]

13 hours ago, Mrd777 said:

@Bobwheel  thanks so much for being transparent on why the V10f gave way..  I understand that the wheel will be water resistant IP55, so can we ride this wheel in the rain ?

 IP55 would mean yes?  correct?

Yes, you can ride in the rain in couples of minutes, but not too long time. 

[Bob Yan]

3 hours ago, Hatchet said:

Hello @Bobwheel,

My apologies if this has been answered I haven't read the entire thread;

1. Is the 25 mph / 40 kph top speed final? Will there be an unlock to 50 kph/is the wheel capable of higher speeds (safely!)?

 2. Will you offer grip tape pedal replacements for the rubber? Will you ever offer different color / finish (matte) shells?

 3. Will there be a larger battery shell version ever, or is that a pipedream?

 4. I heard the production models will have a better trolley?

 Thanks!

1. Yes, 40kph max speed is the final version, and there isn't an unlock speed of 50kph unfortunately.

2. We're working on some grip tape accessory now, but we probably won't be able to provide color shells.

3. For V10/V10F, we may not have larger battery shell version.

4. We're working for a better trolley, but still haven't got a set schedule yet, and I'll keep updating if I have any news.

[US69]

2 hours ago, that0n3guy said:

Agreed.   No need to go up to 31mph/50kph.  I think most would be happy with the consistent 25mph as advertised.  If it only does 25mph on max battery... That feels like a marketing trick.

scroll through the thread , somewhere here is a big table for speed behaviour....

on 60% battery its allready a 34kmh wheel....going down to 29kmh on 25% battery

 

Some good news: Can be unlocked to 45kmh with Darkness Bot app ....(still proportional degrading)

[EUCMania]

Indeed, LA rained on March 21:

https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KCQT/2018/3/21/DailyHistory.html?req_city=&req_state=&req_statename=&reqdb.zip=&reqdb.magic=&reqdb.wmo=

[Hatchet]

Thank you @Bobwheel

[Marty Backe]

Last time with the working V10F

 

[em1barns]

To be fair, I would guess and hope INMOTION will remain quite conservative on the speed side until they are fully satisfied with client returns and experience.

There is already a precedent where they unlocked speed a bit after a few months (v5+), and on the contrary of Gotway, firmware can be upgraded through the app.

[thefork]

5 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I was talking about riding an electric unicycle named Victor.  Did I go to that bad place again?  

I take full responsibility for this; I knew what the outcome would be... ?

And yes, I know Victor is normally considered a male name, but who said that Victor is gender normative?

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Hmmm yeah it could be a non-binary cisgender nomenclature name for sure.   Not that I understand much about that, mind you.  ?

14 hours ago, Bobwheel said:

Yes, you can ride in the rain in couples of minutes, but not too long time. 

Considering people ride these wheels outside mainly and often weather can be unpredictable, wouldn't it be a class leading feature to be able to offer a completely waterproofed wheel?  

We've seen conformal water-proofing sprays, weather resistant connectors, and liquid electrical tape options used for where people want to waterproof electronics.  Most motorcycles or mopeds don't break down because their riders go through a rainstorm. 

Couldn't the engineers and wheel designers make some basic modifications to be able to produce a weather-resistant EUC that can be ridden confidently in all weather conditions?   No one else is offering true water resistant wheels.  Why not add that change in as a innovative feature?  People ride through mud and the tire gets dirty.  It would be nice to be able to hose down the wheel and not be afraid because we know the electronics and battery are well sealed.

 

[houseofjob]

14 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

What I'd really like to see changed first is for the throttling behaviour to get adjusted to permit the 25mph/40kph cruising until the 25% battery level. My sense is that the firmware is still using the V8 logic, yet there's now twice as many cells to play with, why not unbridle the stallion?

@Bobwheel This is the biggest issue with the V10/V10F.

The speed reduction curve is too conservative, it should be much lower like Jason is saying, not the current <80%. 

Please update with a new firmware, the 4P battery should be more than capable. King Song tried a similar speed reduction curve, and it was corrected because users complained.

 

(Also, if you can somehow increase the max speed to 45kph I know you will attract more buyers who will not buy a V10/V10F because competitor wheels with 2kW & 1kWh battery, like the Ninebot Z10, are at least 45kph.)

[Kael]

3 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Hmmm yeah it could be a non-binary cisgender nomenclature name for sure.   Not that I understand much about that, mind you.  ?

Considering people ride these wheels outside mainly and often weather can be unpredictable, wouldn't it be a class leading feature to be able to offer a completely waterproofed wheel?  

We've seen non-conformal water-proofing sprays, weather resistant connectors, and liquid electrical tape options used for where people want to waterproof electronics.  Most motorcycles or mopeds don't break down because their riders go through a rainstorm. 

Couldn't the engineers and wheel designers make some basic modifications to be able to produce a weather-resistant EUC that can be ridden confidently in all weather conditions?   No one else is offering true water resistant wheels.  Why not add that change in as a innovative feature?  People ride through mud and the tire gets dirty.  It would be nice to be able to hose down the wheel and not be afraid because we know the electronics and battery are well sealed.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Riding in rain sucks, even if you have a weather-proof wheel. Traction, when all of your weight relies on a single point on a relatively skinny tyre, goes out the window. I've ridden my V8 in proper rain once, and I fell off. Twice. Admittedly, I was also two or three beers in at the time...  

Hmm.. That's probably why I agreed to ride in the rain in the first place. 

[thefork]

28 minutes ago, Kael said:

Riding in rain sucks, even if you have a weather-proof wheel. Traction, when all of your weight relies on a single point on a relatively skinny tyre, goes out the window. I've ridden my V8 in proper rain once, and I fell off. Twice. Admittedly, I was also two or three beers in at the time...  

Hmm.. That's probably why I agreed to ride in the rain in the first place. 

Similarly, I have twice been attacked by the curb when riding in the rain. (I also had a few beers in me at the time, though.. ahem..)

[Juick]

1 minute ago, thefork said:

Similarly, I have twice been attacked by the curb when riding in the rain. (I also had a few beers in me at the time, though.. ahem..)

I have been commuting to work daily on V8 in almost any weather for a year or two. Only time I fell was on snow (not surprising). Rain has never been a problem for me. Of course I don't push the limits and ride more carefully in rain. So maybe those beers are to blame   

[that0n3guy]

7 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

wouldn't it be a class leading feature to be able to offer a completely waterproofed wheel?

Fully waterproofing stuff is hard to do well.   If you look at the electric skateboard world, companies keep advertising this, but then they have a lot of trouble (lots of warranty claims) and some have even pulled their water proof classification after release.    Boosted is the good example of this.   v2 of their board was supposed to be water proof... they nixed that shortly after release when they realized it was too difficult to actually get right.  

We've seen this in other electronics markets as well (phones, smart watches, etc...).   Mainstream phones took a couple generations to get the waterproofing to the "ok" point... and they have a lot of money backing them.

I think the best course of action for them as a business is to waterproof to the best of their abilities (within financial and manufacturing reason) and then advertise a lower waterproofing standard.  

[Unventor]

On 4/26/2018 at 4:34 PM, Marty Backe said:

The water was from a Seattle event where it was then shipped to me.

Nice try 

I heard that water levels are so low around LA area that you now have to tap beer out the normal water taps?

So rain resistance or protection who would think of this? ?

@Marty Backe I guess that is why you don't have raintest...if you had been in the UK or Norway you would not complain about trolly handle but the lag of umbrella mounting or holding stance.

[Rehab1]

14 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I was talking about riding an electric unicycle named Victor.  Did I go to that bad place again?  

BAD PLACE! I only saw 'riding' and 'Victor'. @Marty Backe might get jealous but we forum members can only summarize. 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

It might be unrealistic to make something completely waterproof as in able to be submerged underwater to 10 m, but highly water-resistant I would think it might be possible.  Maybe spraying the electrical contact areas and BMS board of battery packs with conformal spray before sealing them in shrink wrap would help.  As a redundancy, sealing the seams of the pack with silicone sealant might be an idea.  Switching all connectors to weather resistant ones could also be done.

In addition, spraying the control boards, and sealing them in plastic water-proof clam shell housing with a rubber gasket could do the trick.  Imagine the aluminum heatsink base with a small channel at the edges to meet the gasket of the shell which is screwed down over the control board.  Wire cables might pose an issue though.  Maybe a rubber grommet exit port that is silicone sealed would be enough.

USB and charging ports would be a challenge unless they had good rubber or gasket sealed covers, but as long as water is deflected or cannot seep in they might be fine.  The hole in the axle for cabling could also be sealed up around the cable with some sealant.  I still think it should be possible without a huge increase in cost?  There's always a smart way to do things.

I've been caught in a rainstorm that started out as grey skies.  I didn't expect it, but my Ninebot One E+ was fine.  With all the weight on one contact patch I think there actually is better traction than a bicycle with two patches.

---

Regarding the speed reductions, I wonder if that is to help protect heavier riders who might be taxing the wheel on uphill climbs.  It sounds like Miami and NYC are mostly flat.  Jason and HOJ, I bet you don't weigh close to 250 lbs.  Would changing the firmware be an issue for a 250 lb rider in San Francisco zooming at 40 kph at 25-35% battery who hits a steep hill climb unexpectedly?  The power demands on batteries varies so much.  I wonder whether it is safer to slow the rider down gradually so they realize that yes the battery is starting to get low so they don't trigger a BMS shutdown.

If battery packs had a flat supply/demand/output curve where they perform the same from 25-100% then it wouldn't be an issue.  Maybe InMotion has programmed the firmware to take into account how the available battery power degrades over the discharge curve?  Don't forget temperature.  Some people ride in winter so battery performance drops.  They also may have considered battery pack characteristics at 3 or 4 years of age.

If things were static over time with conservative rider weight, temperature and terrain then maybe squeezing some more out the battery would be safe.  Unfortunately there are a lot of variables so perhaps erring on the conservative side is prudent.  

Maybe having a user customizable "pro" setting with disclaimer would satisfy the "tweakers" out there.  They could then do what they wish at their own peril?  Then again that could open a whole different can of worms when people start setting things inappropriately after reading about them on forums without factoring in battery age, ambient temperature, rider weight, etc.  Who gets blamed when the wheel fails in those cases?  Liability can be a bitter mistress.

Isn't there a common practice to turn off the first two alarms and disable tiltback on Gotway wheels?  What happened to some riders who did that and wore helmets where they couldn't hear the last beep alarm?  I'm no expert so take these points with a grain of salt of course.

[that0n3guy]

2 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Would changing the firmware be an issue for a 250 lb rider in San Francisco zooming at 40 kph at 25-35% battery who hits a steep hill climb unexpectedly?

I'm thinking have a "rider weight" section in the app :).  Then it limits based on weight as well.   

[em1barns]

On 4/27/2018 at 6:00 AM, Bobwheel said:

Yes, you can ride in the rain in couples of minutes, but not too long time. 

Translation: it is weatherproof, but we don't provide warranty if water gets into critical components. To be fair, if EUCs are not made weatherproof, then they cannot be dependable devices for commuting.

And if one cannot rely on them for commuting (no matter the somewhat unpredictable weather), then they are back to being only expensive toys. Have ridden in hard rain, deep puddles, etc... with inmotion v5, v8 & Msuper3, never had any issue.

But when opening up my v8, I did notice water got into the inner shell on a few inches from the bottom, which I suspect is why side LEDs went dead. On V10, you can notice the side leds have much better protection than on v8, with an additional layer of shell protection. So I suspect this was a known design flaw of V8. The top of the inner shell of the v8 was safe though, and this is where battery and motherboard are located.

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, em1barns said:

Translation: it is weatherproof, but we don't provide warranty if water gets into critical components. To be fair, if EUCs are not made weatherproof, then they cannot be dependable devices for commuting.

And if one cannot rely on them for commuting (no matter the somewhat unpredictable weather), then they are back to being only expensive toys. Have ridden in hard rain, deep puddles, etc... with inmotion v5, v8 & Msuper3, never had any issue.

But when opening up my v8, I did notice water got into the inner shell on a few inches from the bottom, which I suspect is why side LEDs went dead. On V10, you can notice the side leds have much better protection than on v8, with an additional layer of shell protection. So I suspect this was a known design flaw of V8. The top of the inner shell of the v8 was safe though, and this is where battery and motherboard are located.

I dislike the word "toys" in this context. Is a bicycle a toy? A motorcycle? I think using the word 'toy' to describe an EUC is to use a demeaning term.

I never use any of my wheels for commuting. They aren't toys 

[em1barns]

36 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I dislike the word "toys" in this context. Is a bicycle a toy? A motorcycle? I think using the word 'toy' to describe an EUC is to use a demeaning term. 

I never use any of my wheels for commuting. They aren't toys 

You are taking my sentence too literally. We can rely on a bike or motorcycle for commuting, even when not using them for doing so, can't we?

I like to believe most EUCs are created to be weatherproof, all I am saying is that those that aren't thought to be weatherproof cannot be considered as serious means of transportation due to weather unpredictability, and as such do not fall into the same category of usage.

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, em1barns said:

You are taking my sentence too literally. We can rely on a bike or motorcycle for commuting, even when not using them for doing so, can't we?

I like to believe most EUCs are created to be weatherproof, all I am saying is that those that aren't thought to be weatherproof cannot be considered as serious means of transportation due to weather unpredictability, and as such do not fall into the same category of usage.

You missed my smiley face 

[Hatchet]

I got my KS18s in the middle of October and rode it daily in serious west coast winter downpours, but as long as the seat is on, I found I had no worries, now I ride in the rain (it's the pacific NW after all) without a worry. Very fine misty rain worries me more.

There was some old joke about how God doesn't bother sending people from Vancouver to hell because they are too wet to burn, heh.

 

[US69]

On 4/27/2018 at 11:44 AM, houseofjob said:

Also, if you can somehow increase the max speed to 45kph

Thats an easy task....just use Darkness Bot beta app. Already set the V10/f to 45kph ...

[houseofjob]

6 hours ago, US69 said:

Thats an easy task....just use Darkness Bot beta app. Already set the V10/f to 45kph ...

After trying to ‘unlock’ my KS18S (pre-200km KS FW unlock) with DarknessBot and it screwing everything up, I’m not touching that DBot feature with a 10 foot pole.

Plus, with the current pre-production V10F FW, lift test maxes out at approx 31-32mph / 50 km/h, so doing this DBot unlock without raising the no load speed leaves too little safety threshold, no thank you.