Mono Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 maybe read @Keith's post again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 I did And? I'd rather have a 1000Wh Li ion battery that is usable from 100-30% (30% under no load, that's how my ACM perfectly works, that's 20% with load where the beeps start) than a same size, same weight 500Wh battery that works 100-0%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayRay Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 LFP (LiFe or whatever you want to call it) has been largely used to replace good ol' lead-acid, but sits at the low end of Li-ion chemistries in terms of energy density. I found a (newer) Energy Density Graph... New anode materials (e.g. silicon) added to traditional chemistries will keep making steady progress... (until new binding polymers are able to make sulfur solutions viable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 This newer density depiction leads to the very same conclusion: LFP are twice as large and twice as heavy for a given capacity [Wh]. But when maximal power output (i.e. maximal current in particular at lower charge levels and under load) and/or voltage drop under load are relevant factors, the same capacity isn't a good comparison point. Maybe you know about depictions of the output power for different battery types? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Well to go back to the topic... I can pitch in that I just bought my Inmotion V8 March 2018. So far I can only say I am quite happy with my choice (assisted by @Bobwheel). At this point the wheel is taking a "little of a beating" as I am still learning to control the basics. BUT...I am already hooked. So I probably end up as @Marty Backe at some point. At least I don't have too much in my garage..yet. I am already considering the V10(F). But I figure that once initial demand has been filled, the price might have come down a bit. Until then I keep learning and saving my coin to a upgrade once I feel ready and the price is tight. I am pretty sure the 1000$/€/£ mark is a mental barrier for a "first/rooke" wheel investment. Time will tell I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 9 hours ago, Unventor said: Well to go back to the topic... I can pitch in that I just bought my Inmotion V8 March 2018. So far I can only say I am quite happy with my choice (assisted by @Bobwheel). At this point the wheel is taking a "little of a beating" as I am still learning to control the basics. BUT...I am already hooked. So I probably end up as @Marty Backe at some point. At least I don't have too much in my garage..yet. I am already considering the V10(F). But I figure that once initial demand has been filled, the price might have come down a bit. Until then I keep learning and saving my coin to a upgrade once I feel ready and the price is tight. I am pretty sure the 1000$/€/£ mark is a mental barrier for a "first/rooke" wheel investment. Time will tell I guess. Unfortunately, in the couple of years that I've been in this game, the prices never go down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Henley Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Unfortunately, in the couple of years that I've been in this game, the prices never go down Sad but true my friend...sad but true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share Posted April 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Unfortunately, in the couple of years that I've been in this game, the prices never go down I bought an MCM2s almost 3 years ago for €900. Now I can buy a brand-new improved version of it for €600. The trick is to not increase your expectations if you want to see the price go down. New products often have a phantasy price to collect money from those who are able and willing to pay whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeRide Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Mono said: I bought an MCM2s almost 3 years ago for €900. Now I can buy a brand-new improved version of it for €600. The trick is to not increase your expectations if you want to see the price go down. New products often have a phantasy price to collect money from those who are able and willing to pay whatever. This and I would say the community is not growing too fast so companies now have more realistic expectations. If they want to stay in business have to charge appropriately. Given the list of materials that make up these wheels, the top models are over priced, but that is just one aspect of the cost. They are also introducing new models at a pretty rapid pace as they try to get a design that appeals to a larger audience, but they are also catering to the extreme enthusiasts as they need to make design progress but also sell to their current customers which is easier than getting new customers. Right now at the current pricing I would say the industry is growing about as fast as they can sustain with the current after sales support, manufacturing, and supply chain. If Ninebot gets back into the game in a big way with the Z Series, them an Inmotion with their professional marketing should increase the market size this year quite noticeably. We still have government issues though, but I hope the momentum and the relatively low manufacturing costs of EUCs mean they won't go the way of the dodo bird or the Segway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share Posted April 17, 2018 1 hour ago, FreeRide said: If Ninebot gets back into the game in a big way with the Z Series, them an Inmotion with their professional marketing should increase the market size this year quite noticeably. We still have government issues though, but I hope the momentum and the relatively low manufacturing costs of EUCs mean they won't go the way of the dodo bird or the Segway I am a little anxious though that this kind of imagery (taken from the official Ninebot Z commercial) is leading the "government issues" in undesirable directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 Why would it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 On 15/04/2018 at 6:24 PM, RayRay said: New anode materials (e.g. silicon) added to traditional chemistries will keep making steady progress... (until new binding polymers are able to make sulfur solutions viable). Yet commercially available cells are stuck at the ~252Wh/kg of the Panasonic GA & LG MJ1s. The most popular cell used in PEVs (mainly H-Boards) is still the eight year old Samsung 22P. The 21700 format has the promise of increased longevity, high power density, but on the vital energy density spec, there's nothing in the pipeline that can match the 4 year top end 18650. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 On 4/17/2018 at 1:58 AM, Marty Backe said: Unfortunately, in the couple of years that I've been in this game, the prices never go down I think that's a factor of the manufacturers going after the enthusiast market. It's kind of like how Tesla (the auto company) today puts out really expensive high-end cars but talks about how one day it will make cars for the average person. For the person interested in the EUC as a last-few-miles commuting solution a wheel with 15mph max speed and 15 mile max range for sidewalks and bike lanes would do the trick nicely and not cost nearly what we're paying. The problem seems to be that market doesn't exist yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayRay Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 On 4/17/2018 at 12:23 PM, Jason McNeil said: The 21700 format has the promise of increased longevity, high power density, but on the vital energy density spec, there's nothing in the pipeline that can match the 4 year top end 18650. The 18650 standard was an 'accident of history' that the 21700 format was supposed to optimize... (and may yet do so.) The more efficient packaging should yield a higher energy density, but EV priorities take precedent. High power density is usually a tradeoff with energy density (but should improve the recharge rate). As 21700 becomes more popular, producers will compete on various battery characteristics (improving both formats). If and when this happens, things will start to get interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeRide Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, RayRay said: The 18650 standard was an 'accident of history' .... Hardly. One might say the use of the 18650 cell in Electric Cars was an accident of history.... although it is more correct to say it was simply never imagined until Musk decided to do it and everyone told him he was crazy. He showed them as far as a viable power source, he was not crazy. Now he strives to make the best battery packs under the constraints he as to work within. However, he is able to remove some basic safety features of the cells he uses, and he replaces them with alternate measures. We''re not likely to get Tesla manufactured cells on the open market anytime soon if ever. Samsung though is also manufacturing 21700 cells, and those may be available more readily, although currently expensive. This should help if combined with other technologies in EUCs. However it is not the massive advancement many people are hoping for based on different developments in the laboratories. Unfortunately those other developments like the big excitement of Fuel-Cells a couple decades ago, these developments may take a while to reach the consumer market or may never arrive. Using the best available tech was Tesla's approach and it's a good approach if you want to sell something today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Secher Posted May 26, 2018 Share Posted May 26, 2018 Personally I just bought a V8 not only because it fit my budget better but also because it’s tested extensively and because it suit my city needs perfectly. Personally I think that the V10 is a bit too powerful to be smooth in the city - I will drive calmly at the beach walks and along pedestrians and the V8 is more than enough. For road driving in the countryside or in difficult terrain the V10 is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Secher Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 On 4/17/2018 at 7:58 AM, Marty Backe said: Unfortunately, in the couple of years that I've been in this game, the prices never go down Well the price for the V8 dropped to 849 EUR in Spain right now. So never say never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danak Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 On 5/27/2018 at 5:10 AM, Thomas Secher said: Well the price for the V8 dropped to 849 EUR in Spain right now. So never say never Where did you find it for that price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luppolo Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 https://store.urban360.es/product/sample-product/inmotion-v8/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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