Will the InMotion V10 replace the V8 as number one seller?

[Mono]

The InMotion V10 is improved over the V8 in almost every aspect as described in this review, and I am excited to try out the wheel soon! Apart from the obvious (power, range,...) I highly appreciate the notably improved pedal ground clearance, the slim shape and the wider tire.

Yet, two specification parameters have become notably worse. The weight went up by 7kg from 13.5kg to 20.6kg and the overall wheel size increased notably by 8.5cm in height and 7cm in length (the width increased by only 1cm, which is highly appreciated).

(source)

 

These specifications attract users towards the high-end range: those who went in the past for the Msuper instead of the V8. But will they also attract the "mass market", the millions of not-yet EUCers, those users who went for the V8 instead of the Msuper in the past? I have my doubts and I couldn't recommend it to the potential newcomers I know of.

Personally, I may still buy the V10, but I am also desperately waiting for a wheel which supersedes the V8 in all its specifications, or at least doesn't fall behind. This is certainly much more challenging to develop (more power, more range, larger pedals, better light, a USB port, a wider tire and yet lighter and not larger), but this is where technological improvements should take us.

[meepmeepmayer]

If the V8 is the number one seller (is it?), it is because of price (aka 16 inches at <1000 instead of >1300). Since the V10 is more expensive, not sure if they're easily comparable. If someone would make a <1000 16 incher that's a bit newer/more modern/price-competitive than the V8 (maybe >1000W motor etc)) , that might be the new #1 seller.

[Keith]

Just now, meepmeepmayer said:

If the V8 is the number one seller (is it?), it is because of price (aka 16 inches at <1000 instead of >1300). Since the V10 is more expensive, not sure if they're easily comparable. If someone would make a <1000 16 incher that's a bit newer/more modern/price-competitive than the V8 (maybe >1000W motor etc)) , that might be the new #1 seller.

This is my view as well. Unless, or until, we get to the position where the average Joe, or Jane, in the street can have experienced or, better still, learn to master an EUC before he buys it, then there is going to be a very finite limit to how much they are willing to “risk” on a Technology they will not be certain they can master or use successfully. High weight is also going to be a big put off to.

For experienced riders then the quest for range and/or speed will drive their now knowledgable choices and I can see the V10 winning considerable support from them if the worst negative is only it’s weight.

Really the biggest downer for the new user, especially the heavy new user is that an affordable wheel worth the risk of buying will not have sufficient power to be safe or comfortable to ride. We risk new riders being put off before they really get hooked. 

The ideal scenario is an affordable wheel with a relatively small battery but lots of motor power that can easily and simply be upgraded as required. For many, perhaps who cannot comfortably carry a high weight and/or need only to use it for last mile, maybe it’s spec will remain enough, for others being able to upgrade to increase the battery size would make the purchase a safer bet. If top speed was also limited by battery size as well such that an upgrade also released extra speed then I think such a wheel would really be a winner.

[meepmeepmayer]

8 minutes ago, Keith said:

The ideal scenario is an affordable wheel with a relatively small battery but lots of motor power that can easily and simply be upgraded as required.

Yea, something like this. In the end, price counts, and this is how you get a lower one that's more accessible to newcomers. But since 4P already means a big battery, maybe a strong/powerful cheaper model simply does not work technically?

Alternatively, manufacturers could concurrently sell the last generation models at lower prices, but that doesn't seem to happen, they keep their price pretty much until they're out of stock, with only some minor reductions. Maybe since batteries and manufacturing are fixed costs, selling "old" wheels cheaper makes no sense?

[Keith]

On 4/14/2018 at 3:44 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Maybe since batteries and manufacturing are fixed costs, selling "old" wheels cheaper makes no sense.

It rather depends upon stock levels. I learned a valuable lesson from a friend who ran a market stall at weekends. ( feel free to change £ to $ or € and p to cents in the below it still works)

He purchased 2000 small earphone radios wholesale that were all the rage at the time for £1 each = £2000 

He sold the first 1000 for £3 each, but then the market was fairly saturated and sales dropped off.

The next week he put the others out for sale at 50p each - half what he paid for them. The guy on the next stall was furious, he had also paid £1 each and sure as hell was not going to sell them at a loss.

My friend sold his last 1000 at 50p each OK, the guy on the next stall didn’t sell any more.

My friend’s view was “I paid £2000 for the stock and when I sold them all I had a revenue of £3500 - a profit of £1500 - I absolutely did not sell at a loss, I just made sure I realised the best return I could.”

[steve454]

Remember a few months ago when the ninebot one s1 went on sale for $299?  They were selling old overstock at a loss.  Now they are back up to $499 at the same amazon seller.

I don't know if they are making a profit, but at the least they are cutting their losses.

https://www.amazon.com/Segway-Balancing-Personal-Transporter-Control/dp/B01M1SFFNE

[WARPed1701D]

I don't believe the V10 replaces the V8. When I was looking to buy I had to choose between the V5F+, the V8 and the KS16S. I really liked the larger motor and battery of the KS16S but the price was just too much for my first wheel. The V8 fit perfectly. The battery was large enough for 99% of my rides and the motor was OK for my weight of 170lb (Inc backpack). It was sub $1000 which was a mental limit for me. I love my V8. The V10 now occupies the position the KS16S had in that decision. It's too much for most first time riders. 

Now the V8 is getting a little long in the tooth compared to other wheels on the market now and is due an update without a price increase. I'd like to see a 1200W motor (at a minimum) and an increase in the number of parallel battery packs to spread the current load. If they moved to an external handle like the V5/10 I think they could fit a 3P design in the current shell but that increases weight and price. This is where I'm very interested to see how the Ninebot Z series works out. They have bucked the voltage trend by dropping the voltage into the 50's (for regulatory and certification purposes I believe). Thus less cells per parallel pack and the ability to fit more parallel packs in the same volume/weight/price (6P in the Z10 vs 4P in the V10 at near similar capacities). Maybe this will be the direction of the smaller and lighter wheels while increasing safety with regards to current draw capability and keeping price low? I guess we will see how the Z series performs. 

Edit: Forgetting basic physics P/V = I (lower voltage, more current). More packs will just negate the higher current draw.

[Mono]

52 minutes ago, Keith said:

For experienced riders then the quest for range and/or speed will drive their now knowledgable choices and I can see the V10 winning considerable support from them if the worst negative is only it’s weight.

My hunch is that riders who are willing to stand on a wheel for more than 45 minutes to go from one place to another will always remain a minority. The same is true for cyclists and even for the vast majority of car trips!

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

The ideal scenario is an affordable wheel with a relatively small battery but lots of motor power that can easily and simply be upgraded as required.

That would be the Uniwheel , more powerful than the V8, yet cheaper and 3kg lighter and with unlimited battery upgrades. If it only had a trolley handle.

[WARPed1701D]

2 minutes ago, Mono said:

That would be the Uniwheel , more powerful than the V8, yet cheaper and lighter and with unlimited battery upgrades.

They also used different Lithium battery tech with increased safety from runaway fires and significant current discharge ability. Sadly I believe this tech is more expensive than standard Li-Ion cells. 

[Mono]

2 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

They also used different Lithium battery tech with increased safety from runaway fires and significant current discharge ability. Sadly I believe this tech is more expensive than standard Li-Ion cells. 

Where did you get the latter information from? My research on this topic concluded that LiFePO4 as used in the Uniwheel are cheaper per cycle. That of course can change in time due to mass production (I assume LiCoO2 cells outnumber LiFePO4 cells by a large margin) or by new production technology.

EDIT: the conclusion seems to be that they are more expensive per Wh capacity, but cheaper per delivered output power (Watts) and per lifetime delivered Wh.

[FreeRide]

in many applications the 3.1/.2V (LiFeP04) vs. 3.6/.7V Nominal voltage for cobalt and some other chemistries is actually pretty significant, the total energy say in an 18650 cell can be quite a bit higher 40-50%, nothing to sneer at.  The robustness and increased cycle count of the LiFePO4 cells make them well suited to DIY Solar Applications but they have to fight the extra capacity when it comes to Electric Vehicles and other high energy applications (they win for some people).  Sometimes the voltage difference is enough to swing things when one needs a series string of cells.

 

[WARPed1701D]

56 minutes ago, Mono said:

Where did you get the latter information from? My research on this topic concluded that LiFePO4 as used in the Uniwheel are cheaper per cycle. That of course can change in time due to mass production (I assume LiCoO2 cells outnumber LiFePO4 cells by a large margin) or by new production technology.

 

It is just what I recalled (probably not right). Cheaper per cycle I'm sure....but ignoring longevity are they not more expensive to produce in the first place? Most people on here seem to feel that current LiCoO2 battery lifespan is more than enough for the expected life of a unicycle so any additional longevity is lost on most riders.

[WARPed1701D]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

That would be the Uniwheel , more powerful than the V8, yet cheaper and 3kg lighter and with unlimited battery upgrades. If it only had a trolley handle.

I'd still love to try one of these out. I think it is an ideal wheel for most use intracity/last mile use cases (except the missing handle as you mentioned). It is sad that the Uniwheel team have not followed up on here from their initial recent post. I feel Inmotion's presence here has significantly boosted their standing within the community. Uniwheel could do with that.

[Keith]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

My research on this topic concluded that LiFePO4 as used in the Uniwheel are cheaper per cycle.

Absolutely, but that is very much a case of more than twice the price but more than 3 times the number of cycles. As others have said the lower voltage and energy density results in a much higher weight and volume than 18650 LiIon cells for the same range, or alternately, as in the Uniwheel, lower range.

What I do find surprising is that many LiFe cell adopting companies supply chargers that refuse to charge if the batteries get too low,. Unlike LiIon cells, LiFe cells are not too badly damaged by low voltage, but they do have a very high (compared to LI Ion) self discharge and they can easily get too low to charge if not used for 6 months or so. This further discourages users who will not want to buy another expensive battery if it’s useless if not used for some time.  I use  2S LiFePO4 cells in model aircraft as receiver batteries. Lithium Ion are too high a voltage as 2S and need a regulator which is something else to fail and too low with a single cell. I have one battery in a glider I rarely fly that has been in use since 2014 and has twice self discharged to less than 1 Volt when left a year unflown. I have to fool the charger it is a NiCad to get its voltage up enough to charge again, but it still gives over 90% of its rated capacity. 

Celestron, a famous astronomy telescope manufacturer, sent me an advert for their wonderful new LiFePO4 telescope battery, have a read of this link and see how many mistakes you can spot: https://www.celestron.com/pages/lifepo4-battery-chemistry?utm_campaign=WS2_NonPurchaser_INT+(NYRtfm)&utm_medium=email&_ke=ay5lbmdsYW5kQHZpcmdpbi5uZXQ%3D&utm_source=Welcome_Series_NonPurchaser_INT# . You would think they would actually understand the technology they are selling wouldn’t you?

Below is what I think is wrong with this article (and emailed them to say so too - a week ago and they have done nothing about it!) :

 

Firstly Lithium Iron, LiFe and LiFePO4 are all names for exactly the same battery chemistry.

Absolutely everywhere in that article where LITHIUM IRON is mentioned, in comparison with LiFePO4, what is actually being discussed is LITHIUM ION.

Shelf life (which means the time the battery will hold its charge during storage) is around 350 days for Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries not, as in this awful article, 10 years. Only lithium primary cells (lithium-metal for example: Lithium thionyl Chloride (Li/SOCl2)) have a shelf life of 10 years.

[Mono]

My impression of the V10 marketing was that it will be a wheel better than the V8 in every aspect. That this comes with a higher price point, at least in the beginning, goes without saying. Now I also think that the V10 will not compete in the V8 market segment and hence it is not likely to meet InMotions ambition in terms of sales volume.

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, Keith said:

It rather depends upon stock levels. I learned a valuable lesson from a friend who ran a market stool at weekends. ( feel free to change £ to $ or € and p to cents in the below it still works)

He purchased 2000 small earphone radios wholesale that were all the rage at the time for £1 each = £2000 

He sold the first 1000 for £3 each, but then the market was fairly saturated and sales dropped off.

The next week he put the others out for sale at 50p each - half what he paid for them. The guy on the next stool was furious, he had also paid £1 each and sure as hell was not going to sell them at a loss.

My friend sold his last 1000 at 50p each OK, the guy on the next stool didn’t sell any more.

My friend’s view was “I paid £2000 for the stock and when I sold them all I had a revenue of £3500 - a profit of £1500 - I absolutely did not sell at a loss, I just made sure I realised the best return I could.”

Capitalism 

[Keith]

18 hours ago, Keith said:

The ideal scenario is an affordable wheel with a relatively small battery but lots of motor power that can easily and simply be upgraded as required. For many, perhaps who cannot comfortably carry a high weight and/or need only to use it for last mile, maybe it’s spec will remain enough, for others being able to upgrade to increase the battery size would make the purchase a safer bet. If top speed was also limited by battery size as well such that an upgrade also released extra speed then I think such a wheel would really be a winner.

O H.      M Y.     G O D.

2 hours after I posted the above, @Jason McNeil posts this:

How is that for service ???. Or is it just spooky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Keith said:

O H.      M Y.     G O D.

2 hours after I posted the above, @Jason McNeil posts this:

 

2 hours ago, Keith said:

How is that for service ???. Or is it just spooky!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lotto numbers please!  

[Mono]

On 4/14/2018 at 5:47 PM, WARPed1701D said:

They also used different Lithium battery tech with increased safety from runaway fires and significant current discharge ability. Sadly I believe this tech is more expensive than standard Li-Ion cells. 

these are the prices I found for replacement batteries

480Wh Li-Ion for V8:
$385 https://www.ewheels.com/product/v8-480wh-removeable-battery-pack
€549 https://store.urban360.com/produit/batterie-inmotion-v8

meaning $0.75 or €1.14 per Wh 

132Wh LiFe (1.2kg) for Uniwheel:
£150  http://uniwheel.co.uk/shop

meaning £1.14 per Wh

[WARPed1701D]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

these are the prices I found for replacement batteries

480Wh Li-Ion for V8:
$385 https://www.ewheels.com/product/v8-480wh-removeable-battery-pack
€549 https://store.urban360.com/produit/batterie-inmotion-v8

meaning $0.75 or €1.14 per Wh 

132Wh LiFe for Uniwheel:
£150  http://uniwheel.co.uk/shop

meaning £1.14 per Wh

I stand corrected.

[Mono]

52 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

I stand corrected.

Literally you were correct, only that the (smallish) price difference is probably not all too relevant.

Assuming the superior power and smaller voltage drop of LiFe, it even seems not "fair" to compare the same capacity (for usage in an EUC). This alleviates the weight disadvantage, possibly close to zero (not sure what the "fair" comparison would be).

[Keith]

3 hours ago, Mono said:

Assuming the superior power and smaller voltage drop of LiFe, it even seems not "fair" to compare the same capacity (for usage in an EUC). This alleviates the weight disadvantage, possibly close to zero (not sure what the "fair" comparison would be).

Not quite sure how this Inmotion V10 thread ended up as LiFePO4 but never mind.

The one BIG feature of LiFe cells, which Uniwheel do point out, is that internal cell resistance is VERY low. They hold voltage superbly under load even when nearly empty. This means an EUC powered by a LiFe battery will have good strong power right down to 10% charge or even lower. So whilst it might have half the range of a similar weight and size LI Ion all that range is comfortably usable.

The voltage of a Li Ion 18650 pack  will have dropped by the time it’s got down to 40% or so to the point where power, top speed, etc. are reduced enough to not be nice to ride - in reality you might actually only really get 10 or 15% more usable range from a Li Ion pack of twice the capacity of a LiFePO4 pack AND, discharging LiFePO4 packs right down does way, way less harm to them than Li Ion packs which, ideally, you do not want to regularly discharge below 30%.

Actually that very good voltage holding does have a down side as well, the packs I use as model aircraft receiver packs hold 3.3V per cell from around 90% capacity right down almost to the death, which means it is damn difficult to actually know how much range is left in a pack. Ideally you are going to need a Wattmeter to measure battery capacity based on how many watt hours you have consumed since last charge.

[Mono]

22 minutes ago, Keith said:

Not quite sure how this Inmotion V10 thread ended up as LiFePO4 but never mind.

By wanting a beginner wheel which can transform into a long range wheel.

Then the conclusion seems to be that LiFe generally are the better choice for EUCs!?

[meepmeepmayer]

No.

Weight/energy density > less voltage drop. You could build a wheel with just more Li ion cells for the same weight and effective little-voltage-drop-range like LiFe, and then you get extra range with a bigger voltage drop.