KS-16S max speed (help)

[JeffDog1978]

Hi everyone,

I'm hoping someone with more experience with the KS-16S might have some insight to share.

I got a brand new 16S from ewheels.com about a week ago, and after some struggle to unlock the speed I got everything working properly, or so I think.  My problem is that the wheel seems to max out at around 18-19 MPH.  Once I hit that speed I get significant rock-back.

I don't have access to the King Song app (I needed to borrow a friend's Android device to unlock the speed), but I've used both the Darkness Bot app and a GPS speedometer app (Speed Box).  The Darkness Bot app reports rock-back at 19.5 MPH, and the GPS reports it at around 18 MPH.  I've verified the accuracy of the GPS app against my car's speedometer, and it's pretty spot on, though obviously slightly delayed (which may account for the discrepancy between Darkness Bot and GPS).

• Is there something else I should try to get the speed to hit its max?  Any setting or calibration or anything that could be contributing?
• Are there any known discrepancies between individual wheel performance?

I'll double check the wheel's settings in the KS app when I have access to it again, but I'm pretty sure I followed Jason's instructions properly when I unlocked the speed.

When I checked online it seemed like people were definitely able to hit the advertised 22MPH/35KPH speeds, so I'm trying to get my wheel fully functional. 

BTW, I have no desire to ride at max speed frequently.  I'm just trying to unlock the wheel's full potential and/or figure out if it has any issues.

I'm happy to provide more info if needed.  

For this test I was on flat ground, with plenty of road and no headwind.  I'm also not a heavy person (in case that factors in).

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

[meepmeepmayer]

Speed unlock and tiltback speed are two different things.

Maybe your wheel is simply set to tiltback at 30km/h? You should be able to change that in the app.

[Master Blaster]

Set the tilt back at 35 km/h (21.75 mph) and the third alarm around 33 km/h (20.51 mph) in the App is about all you can do, there is probably a little discrepancy between what the software in the Wheel reports for speed and a gps, also gps going to lag a bit too. I have my 16S set with the first two alarms off and the third set at 33 Km/h and the tilt back set at 35 km/h which is the max on the tilt back for the 16S. If you get to the tilt back it can be abrupt depending on how hard you are accelerating into it and it can startle you to the point that you could crash so be careful approaching that speed and be prepared for the tilt back.  Also be aware that as a safety feature when your battery gets low, like less than 40% the tilt back can come on at a lower speed due to reduced performance with lower battery, so you’ll only hit the top speeds with higher battery levels.

At any rate the speed the wheel reports in the app and actual speed from gps may be a bit different based on factors like tire inflation levels and the software from the wheel that uses wheels revolutions during a given time frame to calculate/report speed and distance to the App.

I get the App reporting speeds a little over 20to 21 mph when it beeps, I’ll try to check it against the gps tomorrow, but bottom line is best you can do is set the tilt back in the App to 35 km/h..

[JeffDog1978]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Speed unlock and tiltback speed are two different things.

Maybe your wheel is simply set to tiltback at 30km/h? You should be able to change that in the app.

That’s definitely my hope. Once I can get my hands on an Android device again I’ll check it out.

[JeffDog1978]

4 hours ago, Master Blaster said:

Set the tilt back at 35 km/h (21.75 mph) and the third alarm around 33 km/h (20.51 mph) in the App is about all you can do, there is probably a little discrepancy between what the software in the Wheel reports for speed and a gps, also gps going to lag a bit too. I have my 16S set with the first two alarms off and the third set at 33 Km/h and the tilt back set at 35 km/h which is the max on the tilt back for the 16S. If you get to the tilt back it can be abrupt depending on how hard you are accelerating into it and it can startle you to the point that you could crash so be careful approaching that speed and be prepared for the tilt back.  Also be aware that as a safety feature when your battery gets low, like less than 40% the tilt back can come on at a lower speed due to reduced performance with lower battery, so you’ll only hit the top speeds with higher battery levels.

At any rate the speed the wheel reports in the app and actual speed from gps may be a bit different based on factors like tire inflation levels and the software from the wheel that uses wheels revolutions during a given time frame to calculate/report speed and distance to the App.

I get the App reporting speeds a little over 20to 21 mph when it beeps, I’ll try to check it against the gps tomorrow, but bottom line is best you can do is set the tilt back in the App to 35 km/h..

Good point. I’m pretty sure I was near full on my battery when I tried it out, but I’ll give it another go next time. 

Are you using the King Song app to report your speed? I can’t use that one at the moment, so I’m on Darkness Bot, which may have a discrepancy. 

Tire pressure is a good place to look too. I think I’m in the 50-60 range, but it’s worth looking at. 

If you have a chance to check your speed I’d be interested in what you find. I might try some other tests as well.

Again, I’m not looking to drag race with this thing, but I’m hoping to suss out performance  

Thanks a lot for the feedback. 

[Master Blaster]

I have an android phone (Galaxy S7) so while I am riding I use Wheel Log to show data from the wheel. To make changes of the wheel settings I use the KingSong app. I don’t believe Wheel Log is available for iOS — I like Wheel Log on the android because it can display speed and distance in mph/miles and has a good, very visible display for speed, battery, and other stats.

Like I mentioned up above just check that you have the tiltback speed set at the max for the 16S set at 35 km/h in the KingSong app. I personally don’t worry too much about the speed readout from the app as it is derived from wheel rotation and there are variables that can effect that such as current tire pressure, tread wear, amount of tire squish created by rider weight (how many pancakes you eat ?) or anything else that makes the wheel circumference vary slightly as the app is mathematically converting wheel rotations to speed and distance. It’s kinda like anything else that has a speedometer — they are always subject to variation and slight error, so personally I don’t sweat it too much.

Traveling at full speed on the more powerful wheels is basically going to be in short bursts over nice smooth pavement, kind of unrealistic to expect that you’ll be able to maintain max speed over any substantial distance.  When I am on good pavement and trying to “make good time” I probably only average around 17 ~ 18 mph, and it’s easy to get yourself into some trouble if you’re  flying too fast on these things, so take care, a fall on pavement going 20 mph isn’t pretty!! 

I will probably be out on a ride today on my 16S, I will take my Garmin bicycle GPS with me and see if I can get a steady-state comparison of the GPS readout versus what the wheel is reporting through the Wheel Log app, which would be the same figure as the KingSong app, but in mph.

So JeffDog, don’t mean to ramble or get “Preachy” here like I tend to do.........I totally understand that you just want to make sure you have your Wheel set up properly for it maximum potential, as far as that goes really the only thing you can do is simply verify with the KingSong app that you have the tiltback (or what the old app calls “Ollie”) speed set to 35 km/h. Whether the wheel’s computed speed is accurate or not is really out of your control.........have fun with your 16S, it's a really fun, and solid wheel !!!  

[JeffDog1978]

Hey Master Blaster, 

You don’t seem preachy at all. I totally appreciate the feedback. There is no part of me that wants to nose dive into the pavement, so these speed tests are in short bursts and not indicative of how I plan to ride. 

I upgraded from a Segway One S1 because as much as I loved that wheel (very smooth and nimble), I wanted more range and to be able to cruise higher than 10 MPH. That 12.5 MPH top speed just wasn’t quite enough, and it will push you back to 10 quite willingly. Now that I’ve started to get used to the additional weight and extra 2 inch diameter of the KS-16S, I am loving it! It’s super smooth, and the sensation of carving with it is just fantastic.  I’m also really digging having some pads to brace my leg against while leaning into a turn. The S1 is a cool looking wheel, but not too forgiving on the ol’ shins.

If you get a chance to go for a ride, then let me know what you find. Ultimately, everyone here is right, and the biggest thing I need to do is get my friend back over here with his Android phone so I can verify that the Ollie is set to 35Kph, and not 30Kph.

Thanks again!

 

[Master Blaster]

I’m not an expert on all things Wheel, but it’s my understanding that there is a KingSong app for iOS but apparently the new version of the app is experiencing some difficulties at this time, hopefully now that the Chinese New Year holiday is now over they will get the new version sorted out for the iOS folks.

I am heading out a little later with my GPS for a little comparison run, mostly just for grins.  I’ll give you some feedback later today ?

[Master Blaster]

Well, that was fun 

So JeffDog1978 here are my GPS findings............

Baseline info:

Wheel:  KS 16S

Rider Size: 6'2"  230#  (not a small guy)

Battery level: approx. 90%

Tire Pressure: approx. 48 psi

So the best comparison data was obtained at a steady-state speed to attempt to compensate for wheel data and GPS data to stabilize.

Riding with Wheel data from App showing a steady 18 mph, the GPS settled into a constant 17.6 mph - - result at steady-state speed was evident that the Wheel data as reported by Wheel Log was showing 0.4 mph high compared with the GPS data.

I also have my third speed alarm set in the Wheel via KingSong app at 20.51 mph (33 km/h) -- I approached the alarm speed gradually to alleviate as much lag as possible........wheel beeps were consistently coming on with my GPS indicating 20.1 mph, again the Wheel data/beeping was indicating the Wheel is reporting 0.4 mph faster than the GPS.

As a final data recording I compared the Wheel Log data for a 5.86 mile run to the GPS data running concurrently for the same run (screen shots shown below for both) - interestingly the max speed recorded by the Wheel data was also showing 0.4 mph higher than the GPS data for the same trip:  Wheel Log Top Speed: 21.8 mph;  GPS Top Speed: 21.4 mph.

I am totally surprised that this data is so consistent -- this is un-altered data taken from both the wheel and the GPS -- I attempted to eliminate as much lag as possible before reading the 18 mph steady-state speed and the beeping alarm speed.  And of course the top speed of both the wheel and the GPS are out of my control or bias, and I suspect that there is a little lag with the wheel starting the tilt back because it is supposed to kick in at 21.75 mph (35 km/h).

Overall I am actually a bit surprised that both the Wheel data and the GPS data were so dang close.................close enough, in my humble opinion, for Government Work!!!  

Garmin GPS data showing Top Speed at: 21.4 mph

Wheel Log data (from Wheel software) showing Top Speed of 21.8 mph

[JeffDog1978]

Well hot damn Master Blaster, that's some useful data right there.  Thanks for doing the research!

First of all, I'm also impressed the data is so consistent, and it's certainly helpful. 

Also, you are correct about the iOS app.  I happened to unknowingly buy my KS-16S a few days after King Song did a disastrous app update.  That has not made this an easy troubleshooting situation.

Okay, so, our stats are pretty close.  We (obviously) have the same EUC, are the same height, and run about the same air pressure in the wheel.  I'm a pretty slim guy, so you have some pounds on me, but other than that we're close on everything else.  I would presume my relative lightness and comparable tire pressure wouldn't work against me when it comes to hitting max speed.  All of your findings indicate that the wheel can get pretty close to the advertised 22 MPH.

My wheel comes in around 19 MPH in Darkness Bot, and 18 in GPS at tilt-back.  Of course, as you mentioned GPS needs to stabilize more, so the discrepancy may be due to that.  I've also matched the GPS speedometer up with my car, and they were pretty spot on (other than lag).  I had someone pace me in a car today as well, and it was coming in at 19 MPH.

All of this to say that it looks like the wheel is tilting back at 30kph instead of 35 kph.  I will, of course, feel like a total jackass if the cause was my fat fingers just setting the tilt-back to 30kph the one day my friend loaned me his phone so I could unlock the speed.  I'll verify that with his phone soon.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[steve454]

http://forum.electricunicycle.org/profile/6571-master-blaster/  How did you do the link that way?  Just tried copy from your profile picture but didn't get the same short link.  The only way I know is to type @ and the first letters of the person I am quoting.  @JeffDog1978 did it also.  That's the first time I've seen that type of link.  Does it notify you of a quote or something?

[Master Blaster]

It was actually kinda fun going out on my “Mission” today, gave me a goal 

I am lucky that I am using android because I was able to keep the older version of the KingSong app (the black and green one) on my phone while at the same time I downloaded the newest version (the white and orange one) so I have both versions on my phone. I’ve always been a little Leary of updates. I had to use the newest version of the KingSong app to do the latest firmware updates to my two wheels (16S & 18S) - so one thing I noticed in the new app on the speed warnings and tilt back speed sliders in the app. You can move the sliders up above the 35 limit, but when you go to save the setting to the wheel, the wheel will not accept anything from the app that is above the wheel’s limit, it will just revert back to whatever the wheel had before you tried to save the new settings. When you put 35 km/h at the tilt back on the slider in the app, then you have to save that to the wheel and you get a confirmation message in the app saying that the new settings were saved to the wheel.........so look for that when you get around to verifying what you have set for speeds in the new app.

This screenshot was from my 18S so the speeds are higher (its limit is 50 km/h) but I am including it so you can see that the sliders will go higher, but the wheel will only accept settings that are at or below its maximum.

 

[Master Blaster]

5 minutes ago, steve454 said:

http://forum.electricunicycle.org/profile/6571-master-blaster/  How did you do the link that way?  Just tried copy from your profile picture but didn't get the same short link.  The only way I know is to type @ and the first letters of the person I am quoting.  @JeffDog1978 did it also.

I did not know about the @ sign so I did a cut and past from his name on his previous post .......now you taught me about the @ thing 

[steve454]

7 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

I did not know about the @ sign so I did a cut and past from his name on his previous post .......now you taught me about the @ thing 

Oh, thanks.  Great screenshot of the slider settings.  So are you saying that you have the KS18 tiltback set to 31mph, but it will only let you go to the top speed that the battery charge will limit it to?  That seems to be good engineering.

[Master Blaster]

15 minutes ago, steve454 said:

Oh, thanks.  Great screenshot of the slider settings.  So are you saying that you have the KS18 tiltback set to 31mph, but it will only let you go to the top speed that the battery charge will limit it to?  That seems to be good engineering.

Well, no, what I was pointing out was you can move the sliders up in the app past what the wheel’s actual design limit is, but when you go to save the settings to the wheel it won’t accept, and save any speeds settings that are above the stated limits are for that particular wheel. In the case of my 18S I was just experimenting with the speed settings, so for grins I slide the tilt back slider up to 60 km/h and tried to save that setting to the wheel just to see what would happen, the wheel rejected it and stayed at my previously saved settings. So bottom line is although it may look like from the app that you can set higher speed limits than the wheel is designed for in reality it won’t work, because the wheel won’t accept any speed settings that are above it’s stated limits.

However if you’re pointing out that KingSong wheels will automatically lower the tilt back speed as the battery voltage gets low, then yes that is correct. When the battery gets say lower than about 40% or so, you get the tilt back at progesively lower speeds as the battery gets lower.  This is a function that the Gotway guys don’t care for on the KingSong wheels, Gotway does not do that as I understand from reading their posts. Kind of a personal choice as to which system you prefer, the KingSong interceding, or the Gotway method of leaving it up to the rider as the battery gets to lower values.

[steve454]

2 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

Well, no, what I was pointing out was you can move the sliders up in the app past what the wheel’s actual design limit is, but when you go to save the settings to the wheel it won’t accept, and save any speeds settings that are above the stated limits are for that particular wheel. In the case of my 18S I was just experimenting with the speed settings, so for grins I slide the tilt back slider up to 60 km/h and tried to save that setting to the wheel just to see what would happen, the wheel rejected it and stayed at my previously saved settings. So bottom line is although it may look like from the app that you can set higher speed limits than the wheel is designed for in reality it won’t work, because the wheel won’t accept any speed settings that are above it’s stated limits.

That's what I thought, thanks for clearing that up. 

[Master Blaster]

@steve454 — I just added a last paragraph to my last post about the tilt back 

[steve454]

15 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

Well, no, what I was pointing out was you can move the sliders up in the app past what the wheel’s actual design limit is, but when you go to save the settings to the wheel it won’t accept, and save any speeds settings that are above the stated limits are for that particular wheel. In the case of my 18S I was just experimenting with the speed settings, so for grins I slide the tilt back slider up to 60 km/h and tried to save that setting to the wheel just to see what would happen, the wheel rejected it and stayed at my previously saved settings. So bottom line is although it may look like from the app that you can set higher speed limits than the wheel is designed for in reality it won’t work, because the wheel won’t accept any speed settings that are above it’s stated limits.

However if you’re pointing out that KingSong wheels will automatically lower the tilt back speed as the battery voltage gets low, then yes that is correct. When the battery gets say lower than about 40% or so, you get the tilt back at progesively lower speeds as the battery gets lower.  This is a function that the Gotway guys don’t care for on the KingSong wheels, Gotway does not do that as I understand from reading their posts. Kind of a personal choice as to which system you prefer, the KingSong interceding, or the Gotway method of leaving it up to the rider as the battery gets to lower values.

Ninebot also does that.  Don't know or have any idea which is better.

[Master Blaster]

Frankly being somewhat new to EUCs myself I feel a bit better with the KingSong intervention. Maybe when I am more experienced I’ll give a Gotway a try and experience their great performance, but for now I’ll just enjoy the KingSongs 

[Scott Henley]

So I got an android phone to use since iOS won’t unlock my wheel . The android older version won’t find the wheel and the new version won’t unlock either . It says something about wrong parameters “param wrong”

yes location is on