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told not to ride?


Jdestef

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@Niko: My GW 18 actually has that feature, too. Didn't help me much as - surprise!!! - I had it deactivated :ph34r:

surely you had, but that doesn't mean anyone knows. 

Turning it on in front of police doesn't make much sense, as they can observe what you're doing (skilled actors might be able to do that secretly while going through the routine suggested by @Chuts). Anything configurable is worthless in a legal sense, as the regulation requires the speed limit to be unchangeable by the user.

of course, you need to pretend that this is how it is and that it cannot be changed. If you were caught going 25km/h, you kind-of lost this option :(

Plus it must be accompanied by something official looking from the manufacturer, like a "type placard" stating model, technical data and top speed bolted to the device.

I doubt that. That would mean you need to carry a document for each toy you are using on the sidewalk. While the whole point of being a toy is that it doesn't need a document. 

My favorite bike cop also announced, that he will take the EUC to an "expert" to validate actual top speed if I pretend it maxes out at 6 km/h.

WOW. Just. WOW. Would he really go through this hassle to confiscate your EUC and all? I mean, already that he made the announcement instead of taking action suggests that he maybe was rather barking than biting. However further provocations might not be in order.

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WOW. Just. WOW. Would he really go through this hassle to confiscate your EUC and all? I mean, already that he made the announcement instead of taking action suggests that he maybe was rather barking than biting. However further provocations might not be in order.

There are a few reports from fellow wheelies in Germany, that their EUC had been confiscated by an over-motivated cop. In the few cases, I heard of, the wheels had been returned shortly after to their rightful owners without any charges being pressed. 

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Very sad to hear. Most of us ride in a legally gray area. Most of police men are down to earth with this and understand and see how EU is not destruction of western civilization. So thumbs up for most of those :)

Yeah, I'd expect them to have a lot better things to do than harass EUC-riders, unless you're causing trouble or clearly endangering others. I ride at lower speeds when there's people around, slow down to almost stop in intersections (even bike/pedestrian walkway intersections) to check both ways before crossing, and of course stop if need be (due to the legal status of EUCs, I rather give way even when I have the right of way), show turning signals with my hands, wear a bike bell in my finger and use it, wheel riding lights on at all times etc. Hell, I follow the bicycle laws better than most cyclists :D  Other than the legal status of the device, I see no reason for them to stop me.

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Yeah, I'd expect them to have a lot better things to do than harass EUC-riders, unless you're causing trouble or clearly endangering others. I ride at lower speeds when there's people around, slow down to almost stop in intersections (even bike/pedestrian walkway intersections) to check both ways before crossing, and of course stop if need be (due to the legal status of EUCs, I rather give way even when I have the right of way), show turning signals with my hands, wear a bike bell in my finger and use it, wheel riding lights on at all times etc. Hell, I follow the bicycle laws better than most cyclists :D  Other than the legal status of the device, I see no reason for them to stop me.

@esaj: I follow the same principle and demonstrate a law obedience on the edge of embarrassment. Only difference: with my choice of helmet, folks can actually hear my "'scuse me" and I don't need a bike bell :). When stopped, I asked grudgycop, whether there was any critique with my riding and he confirmed "No, but your vehicle...".

Mind you, the be-the-better-cyclist policy served me well with a thousand kilometers riding in the city, quite frequently right in front of police and until today without a single encounter. I guess, it takes a certain mental disposition to value following the laws and regulations by the letter much higher than reason (or even worse: humanity). Grudgycop is a shiny example of that fortunately rare species. He cited a recent article in "Auto Bild", a car lovers weekly selling in the millions, that praised EUCs as a better alternative for urban traffic. His takeaway: he wrote a letter to the editor immediately to educate them about the missing legality...

BTW: it's pretty amazing, that EUCs get positive media coverage in publications like "Auto Bild" in Germany - the best democracy, money can buy. Every 7th German lives of the automotive industry one way or the other. That translates to quite a lobby, which defends the German definition of freedom in rather unique ways: No speed limits on the Autobahn! 

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There are a few reports from fellow wheelies in Germany, that their EUC had been confiscated by an over-motivated cop. In the few cases, I heard of, the wheels had been returned shortly after to their rightful owners without any charges being pressed. 

If I was a cop, I'd confiscate these too :P  just to try out for myself.  Then I'd return them.  Why buy when you can test drive?  ;)

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  • 1 year later...
On 24.8.2015 at 11:48 PM, Tilmann said:

@esaj: I follow the same principle and demonstrate a law obedience on the edge of embarrassment. Only difference: with my choice of helmet, folks can actually hear my "'scuse me" and I don't need a bike bell :). When stopped, I asked grudgycop, whether there was any critique with my riding and he confirmed "No, but your vehicle...".

Mind you, the be-the-better-cyclist policy served me well with a thousand kilometers riding in the city, quite frequently right in front of police and until today without a single encounter. I guess, it takes a certain mental disposition to value following the laws and regulations by the letter much higher than reason (or even worse: humanity). Grudgycop is a shiny example of that fortunately rare species. He cited a recent article in "Auto Bild", a car lovers weekly selling in the millions, that praised EUCs as a better alternative for urban traffic. His takeaway: he wrote a letter to the editor immediately to educate them about the missing legality...

BTW: it's pretty amazing, that EUCs get positive media coverage in publications like "Auto Bild" in Germany - the best democracy, money can buy. Every 7th German lives of the automotive industry one way or the other. That translates to quite a lobby, which defends the German definition of freedom in rather unique ways: No speed limits on the Autobahn! 

... and then the inevitable happed: grudgycop took your wheel. Was it the same one with the inferiority complex?

Any news on your proceedings?

I recently got an informal communication from a leading legal expert that with the notable exception of Munich and Paderborn (what is so special about Paderborn?!?) there were supposed to have been no charges pressed in a German courtroom for EUCycling, rather than minor administrative fines by the local police. - May the audience correct me on this. - But since the operation of EUCs in Germany on private grounds is in principle admissable securing an EUC should not be a routine measure. What do you think lead to the confiscation in your particular case? Were you openly endangering lives or property? I would not think so!

Can we also hear from those people who actually got a sentence by a German court for EUCycling? What was the ruling? What the reasons?

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Hi @RenaissanceMan, add Berlin to Munich and Paderborn - my Msuper V1 is still in captivity. And, yes, in my case it was grudgycop again who took it away. 

As I protested the measure immediately, the confiscation needed court confirmation to be legal. The reason for confiscation provided by grudgycop was to submit it for a technical expert opinion. With my protest I argued, that the outcome of any technical expertise will invariably state, that the vehicle does not fit into any legally defined category. Hence, the entire exercise will be superfluous and cause nothing but needless expense.  If anything, a legal expert opinion is called for, as until now interpreting the current laws leads to contradicting conclusions ("not defined = forbidden" vs. "not defined = allowed").

Yesterday, after a mere 3 month of processing, I received the following court ruling:

beschluss_AG_Tiergarten_anon.jpg

Gotta love'em, huh? The court confirmed the confiscation to get a technical expert opinion. They did not inconvenience themselves to react to my reasoning with a single sentence.

To be complete: no, I did not endanger or annoy anybody and even grudgycop can't find anything wrong with my stile of riding. Plus: I had proper insurance for the wheel and a valid plate was mounted to it. Meanwhile, the German government is sponsoring any purchase of electric cars with 4000 Euro and is pitifully disappointed by the low acceptance rate - tssss  :angry::angry::angry:

 

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3 minutes ago, Tilmann said:

Hi @RenaissanceMan, add Berlin to Munich and Paderborn - my Msuper V1 is still in captivity. And, yes, in my case it was grudgycop again who took it away. 

As I protested the measure immediately, the confiscation needed court confirmation to be legal. The reason for confiscation provided by grudgycop was to submit it for a technical expert opinion. With my protest I argued, that the outcome of any technical expertise will invariably state, that the vehicle does not fit into any legally defined category. Hence, the entire exercise will be superfluous and cause nothing but needless expense.  If anything, a legal expert opinion is called for, as until now interpreting the current laws leads to contradicting conclusions ("not defined = forbidden" vs. "not defined = allowed").

Yesterday, after a mere 3 month of processing, I received the following court ruling:

Gotta love'em, huh? The court confirmed the confiscation to get a technical expert opinion. They did not inconvenience themselves to react to my reasoning with a single sentence.

To be complete: no, I did not endanger or annoy anybody and even grudgycop can't find anything wrong with my stile of riding. Plus: I had proper insurance for the wheel and a valid plate was mounted to it. Meanwhile, the German government is sponsoring any purchase of electric cars with 4000 Euro and is pitifully disappointed by the low acceptance rate - tssss  :angry::angry::angry:

 

@Tilmann

Thanks for the message. I'm completely sympathetic :(!

A nice trick to play around with an EUC without paying for one. They must have been listening to @HunkaHunkaBurningLove above: Traitor, Shame! :angry:

I'm 100% with you on the need for a fair, consistent ruling until some day as if by a miracle of wise, old men a new law on EUCs will dawn upon us. You might have seen my initiative in that line at  http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/5706-what-is-the-definite-current-law-on-eucs-in-germany/ .

However unfortunate for you personally, but a chance for the entire German EUC community, your case might actually be just the opportunity to straighten - ahh, more like - to fight this out. Depending on your legal insurance coverage, of course :unsure:.

Have you already a strategy for your defense / counter attack?

I would try the route sketched by http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/717-german-discussion-group/?do=findComment&comment=67010 although it will be difficult since by getting a license plate you sort of anticipated the enforcement agency's argument that the V1 indeed is a "Kraftfahrzeug" (motorized vehicle) with all the dire consequences.

I would ask Prof. L. Grosskopf, lawoffice@grosskopf.eu, http://www.grosskopf.eu/ for assistance or advice. I think he might be the author of that "Zusammanfassung" (summary) linked above.

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euc are the same as electric bicycles and have the same rights on the road , with lights front back and maybe a bell then it's all legal ,
everyone who uses an euc or ebc electric bicycle instead of a car suv will help saving our planet from global warming , smog , pollution ,
stoneage fossile fuel is doomed to end one day , electric transportation with solarpanels windpower are the future.

I'm sorry but cops are not so smart , maybe they should IQ test them before giving them a job ?

Now this and a similar humiliation in wales , banned in Switzerland ?

Well Hitler wanted to kill all white sheperds because they were white , so what's new ?   idiots prepared to use force will always win over nice people
muslims islam ?   how can something so stupid and retarded spread all over the world ?  religion of love ?  crazy people that needs education a shave and some real clothes...

We pay high taxes for using our car , they blame global warming and pollution ,  EUC will stop global warming if everybody uses it instead of a car suv when possible
This is not about logic or truth or intelligent thinking reasoning , this is about one nobrainer cop with sexual frustration at home and he let it out on 1 poor defenceless euc owner

Police state 1

Monkey police and monkeybusiness - Holy oil

Hoverboard Jihad

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@FLASH: ehhh, thanks for your sympathy, but wtf has islam to do with it??? If anything, grudgycop probably calls himself christian. If he (and the judge) displayed any religious belief, then that the law should be executed in the most restrictive way possible. Anything else is unnerving bureaucracy. 

Stupid? Yes! Pathetic lack of self esteem? May help as well! Jihad on EUCs? That's a bit far fetched, don't you think?

EDIT: ooohh, somebody gimme reputation quikly, pleeeaase! "444" reputations make the Chinese gods explode all my remaining wheels :( @Jose Otal & @esaj thanks for saving me from imminent disaster :wub: 

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3 hours ago, RenaissanceMan said:

A nice trick to play around with an EUC without paying for one. They must have been listening to @HunkaHunkaBurningLove above: Traitor, Shame! :angry:

:blink:  Traitor is such a harsh word!  I have to say I am slightly hurt.  :o  I sort of prefer the term creative "opportunist."  Yes, that definitely sounds better.  Why bother having power if you can't abuse it?  B)  For example, was Darth Vader so bad?  He tried to unite the dark side of the force and bring back unity to the galaxy!  I'm just saying that if you were a policeman, wouldn't you put your new found authority into good use for yourself?  

I'd be giving free breathalyzer tests and pat downs to random women just because I can!  It's like they have given you a free pass to Disneyland!  I'd be like "Sorry ma'am, your bra is way too tight.  I'll have to inspect it to make sure it meets the proper code."  PLUS they give you like a free gun to play around with!  Blam blam!  You looking at me?  YOU looking at ME? Unfortunately I have yet to be able to pass the discriminatory tests at the Police Academy training centre, but I'm still hopeful.  :angry:  Until that time I'll be using my "interim" police ID card that I printed up and study hard all those pesky laws and regulations so I can think of some more creative opportunities to opportunize opportunitively.  Anyone want me to inspect their Msuper V3?  :D

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Here's something you can carry around if you live in the US. I would personally make a copy of this and edit the part where it says "two-wheeled" into wheeled vehicle. They wont notice. Its not like a police officer has a law degree. 

ftp://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_0451-0500/ab_470_bill_20070720_chaptered.html

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Manufacturers, importers and users are going to have to lobby more. I think raising environmental and climate change issues might be more effective, it's easier to argue transport authorities aren't doing enough to reduce emissions and are falling behind China, some US states etc. than to just directly say you want to ride an EUC. Maybe see if you have any politicians tasked with climate change, ask them why the government actively discourages electric vehicles.  

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