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told not to ride?


Jdestef

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Just wondering how aggressively people are being harassed by local law enforcement. 

Today I was told not to ride my NB1 on the property of the "Church of Christian Science" in downtown Boston. They have a pretty big property which is mostly open to public frolicking and such (I see bikes all the time). I can understand "private" property can make up whatever rules they want, but that got me looking into local ordinances and I found a Boston ordinance essentially outlawing EPAMDs except for Tour-guided Segways.

By definition, an EPAMD is classically described as "two wheels, not in tandem".  

Has anyone ever been stopped and successfully used an argument against why a EUC doesn't fit those ordinances and therefore not subject to enforcement banning EPAMDs?

 

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Wow, those Boston EPAMD rules suck. They make it pretty much useless to own an EUC within the city limits!

 https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/city/ma/Boston/chapter16.pdf

Basically you're only allowed to use EPAMDs in the city of Boston if you're disabled, or if you are running a licensed tour company. What really bothers me is that the Segway tours only give about 15 minutes of training to people, and there are plenty of novices who can get themselves into trouble that way.

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That's too bad about Boston's EPAMD law.  In the 2 cities I ride in I hope they will consider my EU a EPAMD because they are allowed on walkways, bike trails and roads with speed limits 25 mph and less.

Of course, private property is different.

When I was in Boston there were business people riding razor scooters to work.  I would think an EU would be a great way to commute (I walked because I wasn't used to the crazy roads and parking was so expensive).  It sounds like they need to get the laws changed.

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Yeah, the laws are stupid and outdated.  If we as a society can "evolve" to let two people of the same sex marry, then we should also be able to "evolve" and recognize the inevitable future of things like EUCs and other personal transporters as becoming commonplace.

 

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The Boston law was only passed in 2011 so I'm not sure they consider it "outdated" or plan to revisit it soon. http://northendwaterfront.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/SegwayOrdinanceSignedbyMayor.pdf

In that document you can see the "WHEREAS" rationale for the law, they're claiming that an EPAMD is "unsafe" and "incompatible" with street, sidewalk, or bike-path usage! The crazy thing is that they mention "inexperienced users" as one reason, then later in the same document legislate an exception for licensed tours. Wonder what sort of users those tours might put onto the road?

The only escape clause I could see for an EUC would be that it's not technically an EPAMD by their definition since it only has one wheel, but then what is it? I suspect that if it's considered a "motorized vehicle" it would be subject to a bunch of other requirements like licensing and/or inspection.

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We are lucky in Seattle, as one wheeled electric self balancing unicycles are specifically written into law as legal on pedestrian walkways. They are illegal bike lanes and on the road, however.  Which I am fine with, because I feel they should be on the sidewalks anyway.  Most are too slow for the bike lane, so I don't think we should be creating blockages for them.  

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We are lucky in Seattle, as one wheeled electric self balancing unicycles are specifically written into law as legal on pedestrian walkways. They are illegal bike lanes and on the road, however.  Which I am fine with, because I feel they should be on the sidewalks anyway.  Most are too slow for the bike lane, so I don't think we should be creating blockages for them.  

Wow, just for the law of allowing EU on bike lanes or sidewalks, it's attractive enough for me to seriously consider moving to Seattle.

Right here in Toronto, Canada, I haven't stopped by anyone yet (crossing my finger) but I always worry about it when I go out with my EU. It is a little stubborn here because all bicycles or any kind of vehicles are governed by the provincial's traffic act. And most city by-laws have the same restrictions and do not allow even bicycles on sidewalks. Someone really needs to try out an EU and review the laws. It is just not fair to compare EU with cars. Looking at the laws that were designed for cars on EU (or even normal bicycles) are simply wrong. In Canada here, EU is not allowed on any provincial road because it is not safe and it is not insured; EU is not allowed on sidewalks because it is unsafe to pedestrians (anyone over the age of 14 is not allowed to even ride a bicycle on sidewalks); EU is not allowed in parks or bicycle lanes because it is motorized. :(

I hope someone here can really open up their mind to seriously review the laws. Although Canada is big and the sidewalks are mostly empty, I always feel alerted when I see any police passing by because I am doing something technically illegal.

Really looking forward to the day where I can legally go out to enjoy the fun and convenience of riding an EU, or looking forward to the day I move to Seattle. :)

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After >1000km commuting through downtown Berlin (Germany) without problems, I have been stopped for the first time by a police patrol of 2 on bicycles. I was slowly riding on sidewalks an they cought up to me when I stopped before crossing a road at an intersection (near Gendarmenmarkt). After a longer litany about my "powered vehicle" (Kfz) not being legal on public streets, they noted my name and address and announced charging me with using a not approved vehicle, which is a misdemeanor (Ordnungswidrigkeit) and violation of the insurance requirement, which is a criminal offense. They took pictures of the EUC (GW Msuper).

I have been passing countless police before and they couldn't have been less interested. So, why this time? Let me speculate a little:

  1. The bike cops were one male, about 40, looking like he eats a chapter of the Road Traffic Licensing Regulations (Strassenverkehrszulassungsordnung - really!) every morning for breakfast. The other one was an attractive female of about 25. You guess it: the initiative was entirely his, she seemed a bit embarrassed by the show. Draw your own conclusions :P.
  2. In his speech to me, he made it abundantly clear, that all that matters to him is laws and regulations - so I did not even try reason...

He made me carry the wheel to the next subway station and announced further proceedings by mail. This was after I confirmed to him, that the top speed of the wheel exceeds 6 km/h. Otherwise he would have confiscated the EUC to validate the top speed through an experts report, which would be costly to me.

Frankly, I would be surprised to hear anything with regard to this exemplary piece of police work ever again - but who knows ... I'll keep you posted ...

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@Tilmann, the efficiency of this Officer reminds me of the book Three Men on the Brummel, written in 1900. 

"The policeman directs him where in the street to walk, and how fast to walk. At the end of each bridge stands a policeman to tell the German how to cross it. Were there no policeman there, he would probably sit down and wait till the river had passed by.... In Germany you take no responsibility upon yourself whatever. Everything is done for you, and done well." 

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This a public park that's supposed to be public accessible to bay front, for no reason what so ever posted no bikes allowed, cop stop me while a public event was going on, yea what ever... Then there was a motorcycle rally event for three days downtown, was not stopped by any cop until a bicycle cop threatened four tickets if I show up again at a bike rally! There were bikers behind me I should have the thumbs up and throdle signs, I am sorry cop you say something? In the mean time all the bikers loved my one wheel skull covered rider....

Governments are power hungry nogooders...

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@Tilmann, the efficiency of this Officer reminds me of the book Three Men on the Brummel, written in 1900. 

"The policeman directs him where in the street to walk, and how fast to walk. At the end of each bridge stands a policeman to tell the German how to cross it. Were there no policeman there, he would probably sit down and wait till the river had passed by.... In Germany you take no responsibility upon yourself whatever. Everything is done for you, and done well." 

Yepp, I'm sure my caring Schutzmann would like that. Maybe they kept him in deep freeze for a century?

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@Tilmann Thats a shame being elbowed by the police like that.  In situation where police take my details I always insist that I take the police officers details down too.  If he took a photo of you or your property take a photo of him/her making sure you get his police number usually on his badge and if possible his credentials.  If he refuses you not being able to photo his ID then make it a point to spend a very long time to type his information into your phone (Edit - As they are wasting your time you are also trying to waste as much as you can of theirs too).  If they refuse to give you ID at all you can always claim he is impersonating a police officer and in that case has no right to stop you (Edit #2- If you want to be additionally annoying and you have local police phone number to hand you can refuse to provide your Id until you explain to him that you are going to phone the police station to make sure they are really police.  Doesn't matter if you know they are real you are wasting more of their time and passively giving them the impression you know your way around the law) .  You see he is trying to intimidate you by taking down your details so in return you do the same by taking down theirs.

To everyone else - I always recommend people to read the traffic laws in their home country (very very carefully and I am amazed many people don't).  In the dictionary an EU would be considered as a vehicle, but according to law, in most countries its not.  Only because by law to be classed as a vehicle it requires to be registered and taxed/insured under the existing laws/descriptions of what a vehicle is and at the moment unless specifically written into law for your country, an EU does not fall into any current categories as almost all laws around the world only have laws for vehicles with 2 wheels or more.  This meaning that there is no law for an EU and thus can't be classed as a vehicle, so an EU is a toy.

Also don't get caught out by police saying that it is a motorized vehicle because it has an engine.  As mentioned above if it can't be classed as a vehicle it also can't be classed as a motorized vehicle because that first condition is still not met.  So it is a motorized toy.

As it is a toy don't be an idiot and ride on a road because if you get busted on a road you deserved it.

(2 Edits)

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This a public park that's supposed to be public accessible, for no reason what so ever posted no bikes allowed, cop stop me while a public event was going on, yea what ever... Then there was a motorcycle rally event for three days downtown, was not stopped by any cop until a bicycle cop threatened four tickets if I show up again at a bike rally! There bikers behind me I should have the thumbs up and throdle signs, I am sorry cop you say something? In the mean time all the bikers loved my one wheels skull covered rider....

Hi @MetricUSA, yeah you sculpted yourself a particular beauty there B)

I guess, there's probably a 1 in 1000 chance you run into grudgycop, recently demoted from patrol car to patrol bicycle. 

On the other hand: every other week is "skate at night" in Berlin - escorted by police front, back and sides. With more and more EUCs mixed in (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRWbMCPLwCU, about 10 EUCs appear from about 3:15).

 

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@Tilmann Thats a shame being elbowed by the police like that.  In situation where police take my details I always insist that I take the police officers details down too.  If he took a photo of you or your property take a photo of him/her making sure you get his police number usually on his badge and if possible his credentials.  If he refuses you not being able to photo his ID then make it a point to spend a very long time to type his information into your phone (Edit - As they are wasting your time you are also trying to waste as much as you can of theirs too).  If they refuse to give you ID at all you can always claim he is impersonating a police officer and in that case has no right to stop you.  You see he is trying to intimidate you by taking down your details so in return you do the same by taking down theirs.

To everyone else - I always recommend people to read the traffic laws in their home country (very very carefully and I am amazed many people don't).  In the dictionary an EU would be considered as a vehicle, but according to law, in most countries its not.  Only because by law to be classed as a vehicle it requires to be registered and taxed/insured under the existing laws/descriptions of what a vehicle is and at the moment unless specifically written into law for your country, an EU does not fall into any current categories as almost all laws around the world only have laws for vehicles with 2 wheels or more.  This meaning that there is no law for an EU and thus can't be classed as a vehicle, so an EU is a toy.

Also don't get caught out by police saying that it is a motorized vehicle because it has an engine.  As mentioned above if it can't be classed as a vehicle it also can't be classed as a motorized vehicle because that first condition is still not met.  So it is a motorized toy.

As it is a toy don't be an idiot and ride on a road because if you get busted on a road you deserved it.

Hi @Chuts, oh come on - have mercy. I probably made his day by giving him such wonderful opportunity to harass somebody when he needed it most ;). Somehow, I just doubt he made the intended headway with his colleague, though :P.

And: don't you think for a minute, you can outsmart German bureaucracy by declaring your EUC a toy! In the proud tradition of "everything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden", German traffic laws consider everything a "powered vehicle" that can drive by itself and exceed 6km/h. It's a Kraftfahrzeug ("PowerDriveThing") - period. As such, it needs the authorities blessings to legally drive beyond your garden fence.

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Hi @Chuts, oh come on - have mercy. I probably made his day by giving him such wonderful opportunity to harass somebody when he needed it most ;). Somehow, I just doubt he made the intended headway with his colleague, though :P.

And: don't you think for a minute, you can outsmart German bureaucracy by declaring your EUC a toy! In the proud tradition of "everything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden", German traffic laws consider everything a "powered vehicle" that can drive by itself and exceed 6km/h. It's a Kraftfahrzeug ("PowerDriveThing") - period. As such, it needs the authorities blessings to legally drive beyond your garden fence.

I hear what you are saying but even if nothing much comes from your encounter at the time, you may have cause some doubt in his mind and may not bother you or someone else in the future.  If like you say he get such a hard-on with the rules and regulations he might even go home after his shift is up and realizes that it is true that EU have no law, bigger win for you and every other EU rider.

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Hi @Chuts, oh come on - have mercy. I probably made his day by giving him such wonderful opportunity to harass somebody when he needed it most ;). Somehow, I just doubt he made the intended headway with his colleague, though :P.

And: don't you think for a minute, you can outsmart German bureaucracy by declaring your EUC a toy! In the proud tradition of "everything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden", German traffic laws consider everything a "powered vehicle" that can drive by itself and exceed 6km/h. It's a Kraftfahrzeug ("PowerDriveThing") - period. As such, it needs the authorities blessings to legally drive beyond your garden fence.

That's why KingSong delivers its EUC in Germany with max speed setting of 6km/h, that's at least what I remember to have read somewhere.

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That's why KingSong delivers its EUC in Germany with max speed setting of 6km/h, that's at least what I remember to have read somewhere.

@Niko: My GW 18 actually has that feature, too. Didn't help me much as - surprise!!! - I had it deactivated :ph34r:

Turning it on in front of police doesn't make much sense, as they can observe what you're doing (skilled actors might be able to do that secretly while going through the routine suggested by @Chuts). Anything configurable is worthless in a legal sense, as the regulation requires the speed limit to be unchangeable by the user. Plus it must be accompanied by something official looking from the manufacturer, like a "type placard" stating model, technical data and top speed bolted to the device. My favorite bike cop also announced, that he will take the EUC to an "expert" to validate actual top speed if I pretend it maxes out at 6 km/h. Although it could have resulted in some pretty hilarious exercises when an ordinary car expert ("Kraftfahrzeugsachverständiger" - really) tries to assess an EUC's top speed, I'm pessimistic they share it on youtube...  

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Although it could have resulted in some pretty hilarious exercises when an ordinary car expert ("Kraftfahrzeugsachverständiger" - really) tries to assess an EUC's top speed, I'm pessimistic they share it on youtube...  

I'd like to see a cop try to ride the wheel on the spot to assess the max speed... :D  That's what they do with mopeds here, if they suspect it goes too fast. But at least in my case, the cops have left me alone so far, I've seen them (and they've seen me) more than a dozen times so far, latest run-in was in a bike lane that's about the width of a single car, they drove in the opposite direction with a van-type police car and I had to pass them. Didn't bother to stop me again.

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Hi @Chuts, oh come on - have mercy. I probably made his day by giving him such wonderful opportunity to harass somebody when he needed it most ;). Somehow, I just doubt he made the intended headway with his colleague, though :P.

And: don't you think for a minute, you can outsmart German bureaucracy by declaring your EUC a toy! In the proud tradition of "everything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden", German traffic laws consider everything a "powered vehicle" that can drive by itself and exceed 6km/h. It's a Kraftfahrzeug ("PowerDriveThing") - period. As such, it needs the authorities blessings to legally drive beyond your garden fence.

I'm curious as to how electric bicycles fit into this - as I would think it would be the nearest match? Are they outlawed or is there an exception for these in Germany?

 

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I'm curious as to how electric bicycles fit into this - as I would think it would be the nearest match? Are they outlawed or is there an exception for these in Germany?

 

For "Pedelecs", they found a pretty clever way to circumvent the classification "powered vehicle": To activate the motor, you have to use the pedals! So, it cannot "drive by itself", it merely assists the muscular force of the driver (even though pedaling is more cosmetic than effective on some of them). Same models in other countries have a throttle ... 

Following that scheme, we could probably mount a yo-yo string to the EUC and make a case, that the motor is just there to help a little (that show would guarantee us top rankings on youtube, too) :D

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I'd like to see a cop try to ride the wheel on the spot to assess the max speed... :D  That's what they do with mopeds here, if they suspect it goes too fast. But at least in my case, the cops have left me alone so far, I've seen them (and they've seen me) more than a dozen times so far, latest run-in was in a bike lane that's about the width of a single car, they drove in the opposite direction with a van-type police car and I had to pass them. Didn't bother to stop me again.

Uuuuh, I see an opportunity for you @esaj to catch two flies with one stone: ride up and down @ top speed in front of police HQ and make sure, you got your camera ready. Then, when they mount your Firewheel and the inevitable happens, you got some nice entertainment for us PLUS somebody to pay for your FW's refurbishment ;)

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