Jump to content
gr8ps

Another new Kingsong (16S) Owner

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Tiltbacks require constant practice at say 5mph in order not to take you by surprise.

I guess that depends on the rider and the wheel then. At least this is not my experience with the two of my wheels which provide tilt-back as speed limiter. It is for sure a good idea to start checking out tilt back at low speeds. But then, I never felt the need to integrate driving into tilt-back as a regular part of my training practice. If need be, I drive continuously into the tilt back, like these guys

I never maximally accelerate up into tilt-back speed though.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Tiltbacks require constant practice at say 5mph in order not to take you by surprise. I think they are valuable if you have poor speed control and are in a noisy environment as you get a tactile instead of a vocal warning.

Be advised creeping up slowly to a tiltback is different from blowing through one. Some wheels have the same tiltback process regardless of how quickly you blow through them whereas others rear up with evil intent.

I know I'm lazy, but I do try to practice tiltback at super low speeds.

I would also recommend treating tiltback as a very dangerous poisonous snake; do not make it a regular occurrence to step on it. You should be scared when you hit tiltback as the wheel is trying to warn you when you're in great danger.

Better to just use a wheel that has no tilt-back :D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Better to just use a wheel that has no tilt-back :D

One of the major disadvantages to true sportbike helmets is the difficulty of judging speeds, at least when the visor is down. Without that speed sensitivity you ram right through the tiltback setting, and that is likely to happen if you come off a big wheel. That has happened to me, which is why owning an MSuper isn't good for my health.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

One of the major disadvantages to true sportbike helmets is the difficulty of judging speeds, at least when the visor is down. Without that speed sensitivity you ram right through the tiltback setting, and that is likely to happen if you come off a big wheel. That has happened to me, which is why owning an MSuper isn't good for my health.

 

I can somewhat attest to what you are saying. I just completed a 45-mile ride on my MSuper with a new fully enclosed helmet (see the Photo thread). Very comfortable, but I found myself riding faster than I normally do because I could hear or feel the wind like I normally do. Looks like 22-mph is my new norm :D

Anything below 25-mph is safe on the MSuper (84-volt version) and I can still tell if I'm going that fast.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed tiltback on a brief run recently. Maybe I imagined it, but it seemed gentle and almost considerate. (Like: hey, what's your hurry? Let's ease back a little...)

Is tiltback more extreme the harder you push your wheel? (I'm a heavy guy, so I try to maintain a leisurely pace.) B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

> Is tiltback more extreme the harder you push your wheel?
Yes.  Also: Tiltback behavior varies a lot(!) from model to model.  And tiltback can also vary based on how rapidly you accelerate through the tiltback speed... If you accelerate slowly as you reach the tiltback speed, then the tiltback will kick in slowly (for most models).  If you (choose to) accelerate rapidly as you reach/exceed the tiltback speed, then the tiltback can kick in so suddenly that it can "cause" loss of balance.

Edited by duaner
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

His was really a freak failure. It's unfortunate because the experience really turned @GoinPostal off to Gotway. It's too bad that he couldn't recognize it as a one-off occurrence and that Gotway wheels don't generally fail when bumping into things.

That’s the thing though Marty.. it’s not a one off. I was not (entirely) turned off to Gotway when it happened. However, immediately after it happened, Ian blew his mosfets jumping into sand, another guy blew his in a style similar to Ian’s incident sans the sand, you blew your m10 in a turnstile in a similar insident, and now the above vid. It’s not a one off by any means. It’s bad engineering. If I am going to balance on a wheel with my hair on fire I want good engineering and quality control on my side.  

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GoinPostal said:

That’s the thing though Marty.. it’s not a one off. I was not (entirely) turned off to Gotway when it happened. However, immediately after it happened, Ian blew his mosfets jumping into sand, another guy blew his in a style similar to Ian’s incident sans the sand, you blew your m10 in a turnstile in a similar insident, and now the above vid. It’s not a one off by any means. It’s bad engineering. If I am going to balance on a wheel with my hair on fire I want good engineering and quality control on my side.  

Ian explained his "sand trap" occurrence and it most certainly was not the same a your freakish 'bump' failure. My Mten3 failure was wholly unrelated to yours (no MOSFETs were harmed).

I still think the failures are rare. Thousands of these MSuper's, ACM's, etc have been sold. The vast majority have not had blown MOSFETs and appear to be functioning. Most people don't make a post that says, "Hey, my XYZ wheel is still functioning great". On the other hand, when there's a failure they do. Relative to the number of wheels sold I don't read about many failures caused 'blown MOSFETs', which is the focus of this sub-thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the mosfet failures are just because they buy them from the bargain bin at some random Chinese electronics market. If they don't blow right at the start (= they were just bad originally), they seem to be holding up very well. I wouldn't know of any reports where a mosfet blew in standard use after 1000km or so.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 12/20/2017 at 12:11 PM, Smoother said:

"Expensive isn't always better."

Very true. As a saler, when you have a poor product you always can double the price, expecting the buyer drives himself to the conclusion "This is so expensive that it is obviously better".

Edited by Geoffroy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Ian explained his "sand trap" occurrence and it most certainly was not the same a your freakish 'bump' failure. My Mten3 failure was wholly unrelated to yours (no MOSFETs were harmed).

I still think the failures are rare. Thousands of these MSuper's, ACM's, etc have been sold. The vast majority have not had blown MOSFETs and appear to be functioning. Most people don't make a post that says, "Hey, my XYZ wheel is still functioning great". On the other hand, when there's a failure they do. Relative to the number of wheels sold I don't read about many failures caused 'blown MOSFETs', which is the focus of this sub-thread.

I respectfully disagree.

1. All listed incidents are related. The wheel gets stopped for an instant. 

2. You view it as a mosfet thread, I view it as an engineering thread.. therefore, to me, your m10 incident AND your ACM melted wiring also count (though I grant you the ACM is outside the momentary wheel block).

3. I will concede that the failures are rare.  However, Gotway engineering failures are (in my opinion) way higher than any of the other respectable wheels.  It is the fact that their incident count is so much higher than KingSongs, or Segways, that I won’t own one. 

4. This is subject to change when I see Gotway change their ways. The Tesla may be Gotways first quality wheel. I have yet to see any major incidents for the Tesla, and I am watching with great interest. I hope it signals a turn around for Gotway. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, GoinPostal said:

I respectfully disagree.

1. All listed incidents are related. The wheel gets stopped for an instant. 

2. You view it as a mosfet thread, I view it as an engineering thread.. therefore, to me, your m10 incident AND your ACM melted wiring also count (though I grant you the ACM is outside the momentary wheel block).

3. I will concede that the failures are rare.  However, Gotway engineering failures are (in my opinion) way higher than any of the other respectable wheels.  It is the fact that their incident count is so much higher than KingSongs, or Segways, that I won’t own one. 

4. This is subject to change when I see Gotway change their ways. The Tesla may be Gotways first quality wheel. I have yet to see any major incidents for the Tesla, and I am watching with great interest. I hope it signals a turn around for Gotway. 

We can agree to disagree.

I think that your view of the Tesla is not warranted. Their choice of components is still crappy and the quality control of assembly is still hit-and-miss. I have not looked in my Tesla yet, but I've rebuilt my Mten3 which is a contemporary wheel from Gotway. Not good.

Yet if you want the Mten3 or Tesla experience, you suck it up and buy one :D   I would not recommend that you buy a Tesla, you'll be disappointed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 1/2/2018 at 9:02 PM, Smoother said:

Maybe my knowledge of what cooks MOSfets is not comprehensive, but in terms of the little twig in the video, that my posts are referring to, what do we think fried in the wheel, when a short burst made it fall over the twig? I thought it was a MOSfet.

There's quite a long list of things that can cause a MOSfet to fail: 

https://www.4qd.co.uk/docs/mosfet-failure-mechanisms/

https://sites.google.com/site/scidiy/diy-electro/mosfet-s-and-how-they-can-fail

 

Not sure if these even cover everything, a common way to kill a mosfet is overheating or overvoltage on the gate. A couple of months back, I destroyed my DIY motor driver in my CNC by static electricity. I milled, drilled & cut more than 50 different PCB designs, some more than one piece, on that same controller without any problems.

When it failed, I was changing the bit, which I do a minimum of 2 times (if there are no holes to drill in the PCB) per board, usually more times (at least 1 for milling, 1 for cut out, and the amount of different sized drill holes) and always in a similar way (two spanners to release & tighten the ER-11 collet). When I touched a spanner onto the collet of the motor, suddenly the motor started running at full speed. The viable explanations are that it was a high voltage static discharge causing either an avalanche breakdown or high dV/dT (voltage change over time) -spike, do note that the part was connected to the drain of an N-channel mosfet, not the gate (which can only withstand +-25V difference to source, usually +-20V, but this mosfet is a bit "unusual" in that sense) or source. Both the gate and the drain-source -channel were destroyed (20 ohm resistance from drain to source, 36 ohms from gate to source), leaving the mosfet open at all times. Just last night I replaced the broken mosfet and the controller is running happily again. Also added some transient voltage suppressor diodes to prevent this from ever happening again.

I don't recall seeing TVS-diodes in wheel boards though. Cost cutting? I'd expect that the high(er) voltage motors could (in rare cases) cause large enough spikes to toast a mosfet...

How this actually relates to EUC Extreme's wheel is a bit lax, it's possible that when the motor cannot turn and high current runs in a spike through it, the inductance could cause a high enough voltage transient to destroy things. But of course, there are many other failure modes too...

Edited by esaj
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GoinPostal said:

3. I will concede that the failures are rare.

Return rates for busted main boards or similar issues that I remember have been reported by Jason can IMHO not be qualified as rare even in the most charitable interpretation. IIRC only "exceptionally reliable" wheels make it below 1%, while 10% and above are almost considered as normal.

EDIT: sorry, cross posted with the above much more specific numbers.

Edited by Mono

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol. That is as protected as it is going to be, except maybe the handle. Nothing will really protect the underside of your pedal though, it will scrape the ground and wear down. Maybe attach some sort of skid plate made out of metal if you want to avoid it. Mine has worn down quite a bit.

Also, don't forget to protect yourself. I decided to do some impromptu off roading and ate sh!t without any knee pads. Now I'm in a brace for six weeks and maybe surgery, depending on my MRI results. Helmet saved my chin though so there's that. Make sure you have good health insurance before you ride!

 

contentRedirection?querySuffix=%3FviewBox%3D736%2C1309&ownerId=A7CMVMQEPBB4U&cb=1517956801480

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, gr8ps said:

off roading and ate sh!t without any knee pads. Now I'm in a brace for six weeks and maybe surgery, depending on my MRI results

That sucks.  I hope your MRI results are good.  I'm starting to think this forum, is not a good place to come if you want to discover the "joys" of EUC riding; all these accidents (mine included, although I haven't had a real off since I switched from a 14c to a 16s. touch wood)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Smoother said:

That sucks.  I hope your MRI results are good.  I'm starting to think this forum, is not a good place to come if you want to discover the "joys" of EUC riding; all these accidents (mine included, although I haven't had a real off since I switched from a 14c to a 16s. touch wood)

Putting a positive spin on our Forum, at least nobody reads about fatalities or broken necks. In the grand scheme of things, ours is still a remarkably safe activity.

Edited by Marty Backe
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone I know who has a bike has these same stories of broken bones and bruises and collar bone slings. The roads are just as dastardly as the forest for injuries and we will all have stories before we are done. :unsure:

Hey @Cranium when Steven Hawkings can ride a EUC we will all be safer for it.  .  . I think 🤔

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, dmethvin said:

Yeah, who didn't reply to that @Hunka Hunka Burning Love "Where are they now" thread? Maybe we should send out a search party.

:roflmao:You're killing me ...

45 minutes ago, Cranium said:

Umm...Maybe that's because it's hard for those people to post?  :rolleyes:

It's hopeless ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On January 7, 2018 at 7:39 AM, Marty Backe said:

Most people don't make a post that says, "Hey, my XYZ wheel is still functioning great". On the other hand, when there's a failure th

Well we all know about @Rehab1 and his accident, but just days before he posted this...image.thumb.png.a265c8ffef953bf111462a43c773b290.png

 

I know you read both of those posts, because you like both posts. 😜

 

Edited by Stan Onymous
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ouah ! that's a wrapped wheel like Christo (the wrapper artist) would appreciate...

Like you, I bought 2 rolls of this material, most of it is still on the shelf. I bought a black rubbed KS-16 to see it ... yes, I already destroyed part of it and the handle as well is bumped

Do you intend to keep it clean in case of resaling? ;-)

 

KS16S.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×