KingSong Notice about buying EUC on Ali express

[esaj]

10 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

$1375 on ewheels.com. $425 - $525 increase. I expect regional variability due to import taxes but that is too much.

Yup, on a quick scan through the sellers, the usual price for 840Wh is between around 1520€ (1799USD on current rate) and 1750€ (2072USD), and at least the lower end prices don't seem to always contain shipping, the cost of which probably varies a bit depending where you live and where you're ordering from (but can be as much as >100€).

EDIT: Likely the big culprit for the much higher price vs. US is the VAT, which varies from something like 17% to 25% or so depending on the European country. How much is US sales tax or whatever similar thing you have there? Or is there even such?

[Keith]

15 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

Well that was interesting. Wonder if Gotway will follow the same paradigm but also create a safer market?

Don't forget it is not only KingSong, King Ma from Inmotion said in his status: "We -- INMOTION technologies are now looking for dealers, exclusive agencies all over the world to change the way of personal transportation, if you are interested, pls contact me"

Of course we have already, in the USA, Seen how that is going to pan out haven't we.

It is such a shame these companies haven't done more to try to improve the legal hurdles in a lot of countries and try to actually reach a critical mass before trying to put the squeeze on the market. At the moment it feels like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, esaj said:

Yup, on a quick scan through the sellers, the usual price for 840Wh is between around 1520€ (1799USD on current rate) and 1750€ (2072USD), and at least the lower end prices don't seem to always contain shipping, the cost of which probably varies a bit depending where you live and where you're ordering from (but can be as much as >100€).

EDIT: Likely the big culprit for the much higher price vs. US is the VAT, which varies from something like 17% to 25% or so depending on the European country. How much is US sales tax or whatever similar thing you have there? Or is there even such?

In the US there are no shipping fees and no taxes. So the price you see includes everything 

[Tilmann]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Sad

Kingsong official Euro prices are crazy high compared to other locations (Asia, U.S.).

Can't buy a Kingsonf EUC if they cost too much We aren't all millionaires here

e.g. KS18S 1680 Wh costs 2000 USD in the U.S. (would be 2400 USD with same sales taxes as here in Euroland, around 20%) and 2850 USD (2400 EUR)  here. 450$ difference!

And in China it's much cheaper anyways.

Generally agreed, but the newest KS18S is listed at 1RadWerkstatt (official KS dealer for Germany) at 2099 Eu incl. all taxes and shipping (http://www.1radwerkstatt.de/epages/80603321.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/80603321/Products/KS18). They show battery capa at 1508Wh, but then, 1RadWerkastatt has always been painfully honest with their battery specs.

So, the price difference is not quite as drastic.

[meepmeepmayer]

@Tilmann 1rad isn't brutally honest (maybe he is, but not this way), he usually just won't import the 3500mAh cell batteries (because these are comparably overpriced) and he builds his own (better quality, most likely) packs as far is I've been told. This is why he has his own battery sizes. Granted, this is why I didn't look there, but on the French sites.

@Marty Backe Aren't sales taxes state-controlled? Or is this the online store exception that Amazon got so much flak for? Now I'm even more envious (next to your wheel stable, riding routes, and legal situation)

--

Also it's not just about the price justification, maybe with fees or whatever they make the same in Europe and the U.S. from each wheel sale. It's also the psychological thing where we see the muuuuuch nicer and affordable prices elsewhere.

 

[esaj]

27 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

In the US there are no shipping fees and no taxes. So the price you see includes everything 

Well, those prices do contain the VAT already (AFAIK), but it's likely higher than whatever taxes are put on the US prices... the import costs might also be higher, but I don't know. Nevertheless, clearly more expensive than US and especially Aliexpress. Still, I bought my KS16S from Europe (1RadWerkstatt), as I value their (or his, I don't know if other people than Chris work there ) service and technical expertise.

10 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Tilmann 1rad isn't brutally honest (maybe he is, but not this way), he usually just won't import the 3500mAh cell batteries (because these are comparably overpriced) and he builds his own (better quality, most likely) packs as far is I've been told. This is why he has his own battery sizes. Granted, this is why I didn't look there, but on the French sites.

Wrong, the thing is that 1RadWerkstatt calculates the watthours correctly, Chinese manufacturers round the nominal voltage up to 60V (for 16S), which causes the difference:

16 cells @ 3.7V nominal = 59.2V

59.2V * 3.5Ah = 207,2Wh

Calculated with 60V, 3.5Ah pack = 210Wh

Four packs of those is 828.8Wh (4 * 207.2Wh), usually marketed/sold as 840Wh (4 * 210Wh) everywhere. Same goes for other pack sizes/amounts. Firewheel went as far as selling the highest battery configuration as "779Wh", which apparently was calculated using the maximum cell voltage of 4.2V per cell, the batteries were actually 696Wh. 1Radwerkstatt also explains this in their website:

To the explanation 840Wh / 828Wh: Correctly calculated from the accumulator a capacity of 828Wh, however some dealers sell it as 840Wh, because Kingsong offers it so and calculates something differently. The correct way would be: 3.7Vx16 cells x 3.5Ah x 4 packs = 828Wh, Kingsong calculates: 60V (which is simply wrong for 16 cells) x 3.5Ah x 4 Packs = 840Wh

 

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, Tilmann said:

Generally agreed, but the newest KS18S is listed at 1RadWerkstatt (official KS dealer for Germany) at 2099 Eu incl. all taxes and shipping (http://www.1radwerkstatt.de/epages/80603321.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/80603321/Products/KS18). They show battery capa at 1508Wh, but then, 1RadWerkastatt has always been painfully honest with their battery specs.

So, the price difference is not quite as drastic.

Which is ~$2500 US dollars, $500 US dollars more than EWheels. Not horrible I suppose.

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Tilmann 1rad isn't brutally honest (maybe he is, but not this way), he usually just won't import the 3500mAh cell batteries (because these are comparably overpriced) and he builds his own (better quality, most likely) packs as far is I've been told. This is why he has his own battery sizes. Granted, this is why I didn't look there, but on the French sites.

@Marty Backe Aren't sales taxes state-controlled? Or is this the online store exception that Amazon got so much flak for? Now I'm even more envious (next to your wheel stable, riding routes, and legal situation)

--

Also it's not just about the price justification, maybe with fees or whatever they make the same in Europe and the U.S. from each wheel sale. It's also the psychological thing where we see the muuuuuch nicer and affordable prices elsewhere.

 

States can only collect sales tax if the business selling the product has a retail operation in that state. There are essentially no retail EUC businesses, so no taxes anywhere. All legal.

Amazon now has physical operations in every state so they have to collect the sales taxes.

[meepmeepmayer]

@esaj By honest "not this way", I meant his 1508 Wh is not just a honestly computed 1680 Wh (which would be 1658). Yep, he gives the "real" capacities and is more honest (I guess), but as long as every manufacturer uses the same calculation, since batteries aren't a 100% exact science, I can live with the "dishonest" official numbers. We all only need to know what they mean, that's the important thing.

@Marty Backe I wasn't aware this loophole still existed, but HNNNNNNNNGG I always thought (hoped sorry) you'd have to pay at least some tax on these niiice prices.

[Marty Backe]

7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@esaj By honest "not this way", I meant his 1508 Wh is not just a honestly computed 1680 Wh (which would be 1658). Yep, he gives the "real" capacities and is more honest (I guess), but as long as every manufacturer uses the same calculation, since batteries aren't a 100% exact science, I can live with the "dishonest" official numbers. We all only need to know what they mean, that's the important thing.

@Marty Backe I wasn't aware this loophole still existed, but HNNNNNNNNGG I always thought (hoped sorry) you'd have to pay at least some tax on these niiice prices.

No taxes. And it's not a loophole. There is the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution which is used to prevent States from taxing interstate goods. So a business can collect taxes from you only if they have a physical presence in the State that you live in.

[meepmeepmayer]

Oh, I see, so the sales tax would have to be federal if it ever comes.

 It's a bit unfair to b&m stores, and thinking, even as a EUC dealer, you fuck yourself up by having a retail operation (e.g. @Trey Lewis), that's just sad. Punishment for the amazing investment of having a real world EUC store.

[Tilmann]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Which is ~$2500 US dollars, $500 US dollars more than EWheels. Not horrible I suppose.

That's what I meant. Consider German VAT @ 19% on top of a $2000 base price and you're at $2380. Remaining diff is roundabout 5%. Still hurts, but there might be room to negotiate when you talk to the sellers directly.

BTW: I am slightly embarrassed to admit, that my fine "New Years resolutions" to refrain from buying another GotWay wheel until they demonstrated some serious QC improvements didn't last all that long. I am working in the Austrian alps right now with the most wonderful mountain trails right at my doorstep. The bitter pill: those fine 820Wh in my Msuper may carry me some 50km horizontally, but a mere 1000m upwards brings them to their knees (i.e. <20% batt left; https://www.relive.cc/view/1197393680, and yes, I forgot to turn off the tracker when I returned the last 4km by car...).  Long story short: a cute little monster with 2400Wh is in the mail. Cut a deal with a local channel. Don't wanna spoil your mood Marty - I ended up paying much less than your $2400 ... 

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, Tilmann said:

That's what I meant. Consider German VAT @ 19% on top of a $2000 base price and you're at $2380. Remaining diff is roundabout 5%. Still hurts, but there might be room to negotiate when you talk to the sellers directly.

BTW: I am slightly embarrassed to admit, that my fine "New Years resolutions" to refrain from buying another GotWay wheel until they demonstrated some serious QC improvements didn't last all that long. I am working in the Austrian alps right now with the most wonderful mountain trails right at my doorstep. The bitter pill: those fine 820Wh in my Msuper may carry me some 50km horizontally, but a mere 1000m upwards brings them to their knees (i.e. <20% batt left; https://www.relive.cc/view/1197393680, and yes, I forgot to turn off the tracker when I returned the last 4km by car...).  Long story short: a cute little monster with 2400Wh is in the mail. Cut a deal with a local channel. Don't wanna spoil your mood Marty - I ended up paying much less than your $2400 ... 

Congratulations on the new wheel. The Gotway gravity well is indeed strong  You'll love the Monster.

What color did you get?

[Tilmann]

Fashionable shiny blue, I hope. It's still in the mail...

[meepmeepmayer]

Blue = second best color, but whatever you prefer

[Tilmann]

Just now, meepmeepmayer said:

Blue = second best color, but whatever you prefer

Soooooo, you don't want to test ride it, you're say'in??? Ok, ok, I am an emotionally mature and stable character. I can deal with that. Doesn't affect me at all ( ... hectically searching for my shrink's emergency reach number ... ) 

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, Tilmann said:

Fashionable shiny blue, I hope. It's still in the mail...

That's the color I went with - good choice of course 

[US69]

To stay on the 18S prices:

i paid for a 1680wh(real 1656wh) 18S at aliexpress -to my door- 1500dollar...that are 1266Euro! ok...not everybody pays 1500...lets say 1600dollar is average!

Ks France is going for the same wheel at 2200euro(2600dollar), that are about 900 euro more...really?....1100 dollar?!

1radwerkstatt is going for a 2100 euro for a 1508wh wheel...and they use (the cheapest) 680wh KS wheel available and throw a 828wh self produced batterie pack in it...has nothing to do with different calculation of wh.....he takes advantage of his own batterie production...thats all!

Another example: when May 2016 the Ks16 came out...i bought a brandnew one from Ks Thailand in my holidays..price for the 680wh version was 750dollar!! again: 750dollar!! at the same time this wheel was sold in europe for 1600-1700dollar!

And again: in the 750bucks i paid in asia...there was profit included for the Thai seller!!!

So: For me this is a ridiculous amount of „more“...just because of exclusive contracts or a „healthier“ market??? Nope...thats getting ridiculous...

Again:my 2 cents

Fortunatly i have worked out some contacts, so that i am not depending on european sellers...aliexpress „rule“ or not!

 

 

[Marty Backe]

42 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

To stay on the 18S prices:

i paid for a 1680wh(real 1656wh) 18S at aliexpress -to my door- 1500dollar...that are 1266Euro! ok...not everybody pays 1500...lets say 1600dollar is average!

Ks France is going for the same wheel at 2200euro(2600dollar), that are about 900 euro more...really?....1100 dollar?!

1radwerkstatt is going for a 2100 euro for a 1508wh wheel...and they use (the cheapest) 680wh KS wheel available and throw a 828wh self produced batterie pack in it...has nothing to do with different calculation of wh.....he takes advantage of his own batterie production...thats all!

Another example: when May 2016 the Ks16 came out...i bought a brandnew one from Ks Thailand in my holidays..price for the 680wh version was 750dollar!! again: 750dollar!! at the same time this wheel was sold in europe for 1600-1700dollar!

And again: in the 750bucks i paid in asia...there was profit included for the Thai seller!!!

So: For me this is a ridiculous amount of „more“...just because of exclusive contracts or a „healthier“ market??? Nope...thats getting ridiculous...

Again:my 2 cents

Fortunatly i have worked out some contacts, so that i am not depending on european sellers...aliexpress „rule“ or not!

 

 

That's an impressive price. It's funny that we (you) have to be so secretive about where they are being bought at that price. For any other price you just say, "Hey, checkout this website to get <insert product here> for this price". But for KingSong wheels, it's like you're buying drugs. All hush-hush and secretive.

I assume that your contacts would be punished by KingSong if they found out that they were selling to you? Very lame and sad 

[HermanTheGerman]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

When you guys change your profile pictures (Batman seems to be a thing lately) or profile name (I'm looking at you @Asylsteirer) it's so confusing and somehow feels like 'he' left the group. I'm weird I know 

I'm feeling guilty. (;•͈́༚•͈̀)

I didn't like that I was "HermanTheGerma"/n and not HermanTheGerman, just because of formatting.

I used Asylsteirer, because it is shorter,  I'm actually born in Vienna and lived there for a long time, before I found an asylum at my wife in Styria.

So I relocated for love, a story like from a book especially written for @Hunka Hunka Burning Love, and from there comes the Avatar Asylsteirer, I'm an Austrian internal refugee.

In 3 weeks we have elections, and if we get our Austrian Trump then, who will build a wall between Lower Austria and Styria, I cannot return to my birthplace.  

[Marty Backe]

18 minutes ago, Asylsteirer said:

I'm feeling guilty. (;•͈́༚•͈̀)

I didn't like that I was "HermanTheGerma"/n and not HermanTheGerman, just because of formatting.

I used Asylsteirer, because it is shorter,  I'm actually born in Vienna and lived there for a long time, before I found an asylum at my wife in Styria.

So I relocated for love, a story like from a book especially written for @Hunka Hunka Burning Love, and from there comes the Avatar Asylsteirer, I'm an Austrian internal refugee.

In 3 weeks we have elections, and if we get our Austrian Trump then, who will build a wall between Lower Austria and Styria, I cannot return to my birthplace.  

HermanTheGerman had such a great ring to it   

That's funny. Are you saying "German" was cut off? If so I never noticed - I guess the brain is great at filling in the missing information.

I'm sure in another six months or so I'll forget that you were ever HermanTheGerman. It may take a couple of years to figure out how to pronounce Asylsteirer in my head though     It just doesn't roll off this American's tongue like HermanTheGerman, HermanTheGerman, HermanTheGerman. Have I ever mentioned that I'm half German 

 

[Chriull]

14 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

.... It may take a couple of years to figure out how to pronounce Asylsteirer in my head though     It just doesn't roll off this American's tongue like HermanTheGerman, HermanTheGerman, HermanTheGerman. Have I ever mentioned that I'm half German 

 

Try to listen to 

 a couple of times –  then you should get the pronounciation of „Steirer“ ... or you stay away of austrian popular folk music forever 

asyl is maybe a bit more complicated for americans: http://www.duden.de/_media_/audio/ID4112575_35633194.mp3, https://youtu.be/hF3dpCu0ys8

...

looking forward to hear your progress in one of your next videos! 

 

[IPS Malta]

14 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Sad

Kingsong official Euro prices are crazy high compared to other locations (Asia, U.S.).

Can't buy a Kingsonf EUC if they cost too much We aren't all millionaires here

e.g. KS18S 1680 Wh costs 2000 USD in the U.S. (would be 2400 USD with same sales taxes as here in Euroland, around 20%) and 2850 USD (2400 EUR)  here. 450$ difference!

And in China it's much cheaper anyways.

2

 

7 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

To stay on the 18S prices:

i paid for a 1680wh(real 1656wh) 18S at aliexpress -to my door- 1500dollar...that are 1266Euro! ok...not everybody pays 1500...lets say 1600dollar is average!

Ks France is going for the same wheel at 2200euro(2600dollar), that are about 900 euro more...really?....1100 dollar?!

1radwerkstatt is going for a 2100 euro for a 1508wh wheel...and they use (the cheapest) 680wh KS wheel available and throw a 828wh self produced batterie pack in it...has nothing to do with different calculation of wh.....he takes advantage of his own batterie production...thats all!

Another example: when May 2016 the Ks16 came out...i bought a brandnew one from Ks Thailand in my holidays..price for the 680wh version was 750dollar!! again: 750dollar!! at the same time this wheel was sold in europe for 1600-1700dollar!

And again: in the 750bucks i paid in asia...there was profit included for the Thai seller!!!

So: For me this is a ridiculous amount of „more“...just because of exclusive contracts or a „healthier“ market??? Nope...thats getting ridiculous...

Again:my 2 cents

Fortunatly i have worked out some contacts, so that i am not depending on european sellers...aliexpress „rule“ or not!

 

 

I met prices for KS-18S in Europe for the 1680WH @ 1725eur excl. VAT .... my county is at 18% so that will be 2035.5eur ... you should also consider that there is the import duty fee, so anyone importing the products from China should legally be paying 6% on the goods value not to mention shipping prices too... but then that's the business margins they intend to target in order to cover the risk on investment + overheads

[meepmeepmayer]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Have I ever mentioned that I'm half German 

I always wondered this about your name! Also, how to officially pronounce it, like the German "Backe" (which means cheek, btw), or in English pronunciation.

You can use Google translate to have it read the English and German pronunciations to you (more or less accurately, as you'll see from the English one):

https://translate.google.com/#de/en/Backe (German)

https://translate.google.com/#en/de/Backe (English)

Press the little speaker symbol in the left text field.

edit: this stuff is way too fun  https://translate.google.com/#ru/en/The quick brown Marty Backe jumps over the lazy ACM. let it read that to you, and try some other languages for the accents!

(Sorry for OT)

edit2: to stay on topic, let it read that to you: https://translate.google.com/#it/en/Kingsong wheels feel way too overpriced in Europe!

[mrelwood]

When buying the KS-16S I was only able to find one local price, 1650€. At Ali I paid 957€ including shipping and all. Werkstatt was out of stock. I'm thinking of a KS-18L or a Z8/10 for next year, but there really is a serious danger that with EU prices I won't be buying anything. I'm sure I'm not the only one. How is that good for business?