What is your experience with the KS16S until now ?

[meepmeepmayer]

32 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I have tried to intervene with Thomas Hoon, singapor KS seller, and told him that here in the Forum, 100% of the members are allways for more capacity!

He wants to give this info's to KS...we will see what happens!

Awesome!!!!!!!!

32 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

At least KS listens to it's customers...best example might be the new 14, which was only planned at max 420wh in the beginning and got an upgrade in battery later.

That explains the "interesting" side covers on the 14S (which apparently are getting a redesign). And to think, some dealers (e.g. @Jason McNeil) don't even bother selling the 14D now, the 14S might never have existed!

[Lukasz]

I have made over 2100 km on my KS16S in last 3 months. No issues!   Last review below,  I will do next most probably  after 2500..  (soon) 

 

On 9/12/2017 at 7:10 PM, LanghamP said:

--The footpads are difficult to get up and down. Lubricating them does help a lot, for a time.

Solution here - not so complicated mod- 

 

--The wheel isn't silent; it creaks a bit. The creaking is nothing like my KS14c which is very mechanical sounding, and noisy.

I confirm that it is louder than Ninebot One E+ but nothing annoying, in fact it is not the bad thing at all. People notice You more and move aside. In this case "loud pipes save lives" work well for me. It is less noisy than regular KS16

--The trolley handle is slightly sticky. I usually avoid using it much unless I really have to.

WD40 is the solution - or - as in my case - regular use - after 2 weeks it started to work smoothly.

--For some people the footpads are too low and touch down on low-speed turns.

End of the footpads are higher in KS16S than in KS16. If You start to scratch the ground - check Your tire pressure - in my case it means that pressure is around 25PSI, which is too low. When I top up back to 40 PSI - no more scratching (BTW check Your tire pressure once a month)

--The speakers are noticeably worse than the KS14c.

No opinion here as I do not use speakers on regular basis. I used it for test once and the sound was surprisingly loud an clear for me. (taking into account how small the speakers are)

 

 

[eddiemoy]

14 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

FFS, what is wrong with manufacturers, they always do one thing that ruins the entire wheel!??!! Seriously hope the rumor is false. 1680 Wh is already less than what could (space-wise) be on the 18S.

How hard is it to see the success of the Monster (betting the 2400 Wh to 1600 Wh sold ratio is like 10:1) and how everybody buys 1600 Wh ACM/msuper V3 and the 1300 Wh and smaller 67V models are basically rarely sold in comparison?????!!!!

But hey, let's max our batteries at 1000 Wh, and fuck everyone else.

Ninebot with the Z, Gotway with the Tesla, KS with the 16(S)... and now possibly even the 18L.

I think you are in the minority.  If there is a general need for such a long range, they would have continued to make them.  But it would seem that the current mix satisfies the majority.  It is cost as well, the more batteries, the more it will cost.  Honestly, who can afford over $2k for a wheel?  

Look at those people with the boosted board, they go only 7miles, doesn't prevent the wheel from being sold.  Yes, sure most of them would want the longer range battery, but if it is going to change the form factor and ride of the wheel, they wouldn't go for it.

If more people want the 2000Wh which is highly doubtful, then I'm sure they would make it.  They are not going to design something for 50 people.  

[meepmeepmayer]

I'm just saying, every time people have the option, they seem to take the bigger battery.

E.g. look at sales of msuper V3 1300Wh vs 1600 Wh, even though the extra 300 Wh are  comparably overpriced, almost everyone takes the 1600.

Monster 2400 Wh vs 1600 Wh.

KS14S vs 14D.

KS16 420 Wh vs KS16 840 Wh.

[Jason McNeil]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That explains the "interesting" side covers on the 14S (which apparently are getting a redesign). And to think, some dealers (e.g. @Jason McNeil) don't even bother selling the 14D now, the 14S might never have existed!

Once the speed problems are sorted out, I'll be fervently committed to the 14D. From our selling experience, I'd say that 80% of first time buyers don't want to plunk down >$1k on their first Wheel. People are concerned that they might not 'pick it up', or it may not meet their expectations. At the right price point, the 14D is ideally suited for this end; Customers will feel like they've got a quality Wheel at a good price & will hopefully be disposed to purchase their next one from us 

[meepmeepmayer]

Yea, staying under the 1000$ barrier makes sense for beginners.

If you want to add some substance whether you sell more big or small battery wheels, nobody's going to complain *hint* *cough* but it's understandable if you want to keep that confidential

[Jason McNeil]

23 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If you want to add some substance whether you sell more big or small battery wheels, nobody's going to complain *

Earlier in the year, the V5F was our strongest seller, when offered at $675. Since the SW/Inmotion pact, we don't have an equivalent substitute at the moment. 
The Plan is to offer the 14D at just under $800, perhaps even have KS build us a lower capacity version for around the same price point as the V5F was.

I think it's human nature though, that when presented with two battery capacity choices of the same model, there is a tendency to choose the higher battery version. This has been the case with every Wheel we've sold, from the 174Wh KS14B, to the 2400Wh Monster. 

[Keith]

24 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

I think it's human nature though, that when presented with two battery capacity choices of the same model, there is a tendency to choose the higher battery version. This has been the case with every Wheels we've sold, from the 174Wh 14B to the 2400Wh Monster. 

Jason, that is very true, but even if you just offer a lower specification wheel at a good "hook them in" price, once you have their interest surely upselling to the higher spec battery then becomes easier?

I must confess I've toyed with adding a second battery to my KS-14C and if there were regular rides like @Marty Backe has I'd absolutely do that or get a KS-16, but for the length most of my rides are I'm fairly grateful for the light weight my wheel currently is. 

And then we had a new forum member a few weeks ago who had bought a KS-14S from you but wanted to sell it almost immediately because she was struggling to lift it into the boot of a car, she was going to sell it, at a loss, and buy a KS14D she had found on offer purely to lose the 3Kg of extra weight. She would have much rather purchased a 14D or 420Wh version of the 14S in the first place.

P.S. did you survive the hurricane unscathed OK?

[Stan Onymous]

As a buyer of one of those V5f's from Ewheels, I have seen the SW website and was very depressed and relieved at the same time. Their V5f is a 160wh version for same price. I would've felt like this stuff just wasnt for me because of price. I would've never had the range to truly enjoy the transportation aspects of this wheel, and it would've been an expensive fad that I would've tired of.

The sweet spot for the Price and range is right around $500/ 10 miles, and $700 for 18 miles for a 150 lb rider. Speed should be at least 15mph for the top speed. As I remember, it took me almost 4 months before I was ready to plunk down $1000 for an upgrade for the V8. In between, I picked up two used EUCs for under $500/ a piece.

This is what the retailers need to compete with, othewise they are just in the same pack of sellers as the used euc sellers. A newbie's first new EUC has to compete with the specs and price of the used market by being more reliable, having better quality, being better supported, and having the ability to accessorize. The KS14D would fit nicely into that slot, albeit slightly heavier than the V5f, it is much more utilitarian with more range ,more speed, built in trolley handle and better torque. The bluetooth speakers are a blast, at times. I wish they would include the USB on the underside or side of the handle again. Maybe a desert version for those unconcerned about water ingress.

[Stan Onymous]

6 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

If more people want the 2000Wh which is highly doubtful, then I'm sure they would make it.  They are not going to design something for 50 people.  

Count me in as one of the 50 people then.  

At least allow for there to be an upgrade option for those who want it. I think as more people learn that a EUC can compete with a 50 mile a day bike, those numbers will rise. Think about it, you can bike to work and need a shower, or you can EUC to work and hit the ground running. As more people see this as an option it will develop more demand. We are just getting to this next frontier of range. I say we drive the market, since larger battery capacity also means more stable power and safer EUC too.

We really are just getting to the point where the EUC is a viable transportation alternative and not just a boost board, hoverboard fad. Lets not go backwards in terms of range.

[eddiemoy]

28 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Count me in as one of the 50 people then.  

At least allow for there to be an upgrade option for those who want it. I think as more people learn that a EUC can compete with a 50 mile a day bike, those numbers will rise. Think about it, you can bike to work and need a shower, or you can EUC to work and hit the ground running. As more people see this as an option it will develop more demand. We are just getting to this next frontier of range. I say we drive the market, since larger battery capacity also means more stable power and safer EUC too.

We really are just getting to the point where the EUC is a viable transportation alternative and not just a boost board, hoverboard fad. Lets not go backwards in terms of range.

It is a limit of the design and how much battery they can stuff in the unit.  I don't think EUC will ever become mainstream.  It is just too high a barrier to cross in terms of learning curve and price.  Also, the couple of guys I met on the group ride, they were able to do 50 miles but that was an all day and night ride.  I don't see it in my riding as well as many others that can do 50 miles a day.  I'm sure there are those who do it, but it is very few.  If they need the range, they can get the Monster with 2400Wh if they can afford it and live with the size.  

It is unrealistic for you to expect small package and big battery.  For them to take care of the 50 people, they would have to neglect the thousands.  Who in their right mind as a company would do that?

 

[eddiemoy]

2 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

As a buyer of one of those V5f's from Ewheels, I have seen the SW website and was very depressed and relieved at the same time. Their V5f is a 160wh version for same price. I would've felt like this stuff just wasnt for me because of price. I would've never had the range to truly enjoy the transportation aspects of this wheel, and it would've been an expensive fad that I would've tired of.

The sweet spot for the Price and range is right around $500/ 10 miles, and $700 for 18 miles for a 150 lb rider. Speed should be at least 15mph for the top speed. As I remember, it took me almost 4 months before I was ready to plunk down $1000 for an upgrade for the V8. In between, I picked up two used EUCs for under $500/ a piece.

This is what the retailers need to compete with, othewise they are just in the same pack of sellers as the used euc sellers. A newbie's first new EUC has to compete with the specs and price of the used market by being more reliable, having better quality, being better supported, and having the ability to accessorize. The KS14D would fit nicely into that slot, albeit slightly heavier than the V5f, it is much more utilitarian with more range ,more speed, built in trolley handle and better torque. The bluetooth speakers are a blast, at times. I wish they would include the USB on the underside or side of the handle again. Maybe a desert version for those unconcerned about water ingress.

I bought my first wheel the X3 for ~$1k.  Took me a few years of on and off trying to finally get it.  As soon as it clicked going forward on the X3, just a few hours after I paid $450 for the Ninebot One C+.  Spent a month on it to learn everything except tricks.  Then bought the KS16 a month into learning, then the 18S because I wanted to sit from all the foot fatigue.  two weeks later, I bought the Msuper because the I like the KS18 so much, the 18" wheel form factor, I wanted to try the Msuper.  I'm still trying out the Msuper while I love the 18S.  I only have the 840wh battery on both the King songs and I bought the lower battery version of the Msuper, 1300wh.  I still have yet to use up the 840wh in one day.  I guess I'm not hard core enough yet.  Or I just don't have the stamina.  I've run about over 3hours before on the KS18S and still had 70% battery left.  I think 1000wh is more than most people would use.  For the hardcore folks, maybe a mod like Ian from speedyfeet?

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

It is a limit of the design and how much battery they can stuff in the unit.  I don't think EUC will ever become mainstream.  It is just too high a barrier to cross in terms of learning curve and price.  Also, the couple of guys I met on the group ride, they were able to do 50 miles but that was an all day and night ride.  I don't see it in my riding as well as many others that can do 50 miles a day.  I'm sure there are those who do it, but it is very few.  If they need the range, they can get the Monster with 2400Wh if they can afford it and live with the size.  

It is unrealistic for you to expect small package and big battery.  For them to take care of the 50 people, they would have to neglect the thousands.  Who in their right mind as a company would do that?

 

Both my ACM and MSuper travel over 45 miles on one charge. These are not huge wheels. So you don't need a Monster to travel far.

Maybe it's only a West Coast phenomenon, but there are plenty of us here which consider 25 miles a warm-up exercise.

[eddiemoy]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

Both my ACM and MSuper travel over 45 miles on one charge. These are not huge wheels. So you don't need a Monster to travel far.

Maybe it's only a West Coast phenomenon, but there are plenty of us here which consider 25 miles a warm-up exercise.

define plenty.  the folks you are riding with are probably enthusiast.  not common folk.

[Marty Backe]

10 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

define plenty.  the folks you are riding with are probably enthusiast.  not common folk.

I don't think many common folk are riding EUCs. Let's be serious, the vast majority of people who take the time to learn EUCs are enthusiasts.

All indications are that the ACM, MSuper, Monster, and KS18 are big sellers. Apparently there are more than just a few people who want high capacity batteries.

[eddiemoy]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't think many common folk are riding EUCs. Let's be serious, the vast majority of people who take the time to learn EUCs are enthusiasts.

All indications are that the ACM, MSuper, Monster, and KS18 are big sellers. Apparently there are more than just a few people who want high capacity batteries.

I think Jason would have a good idea about sales.  Jason mention that the below $1000 is the hot sale items.  I have a feeling the big sellers are really not all that big.  10 units consider big? 20?  I'm interested in how popular they are.  I'm certain it is not as popular as you think, Marty.  I don't think that most people who take the time to learn become enthusiast either.  I gave my X3 to a friend's son to learn when I couldn't learn it.  He is far from being an enthusiast.  The one person I bumped into in Maryland wasn't an enthusiast.  In my 4 months of riding I've not seen a single other person riding in the wild.  Even in the citi streets weekend ride a month ago, I saw only one out of the two sessions I rode.  That other person was definitely not an enthusiast.  The only enthusiast were the people I met up on this forum for the second run for citi streets.  

@Jason McNeil, can you give us an idea of what the sales numbers are like for the bigger units and do you see the sales picking up?  A big difference between this year and last year?  Any indication that it is going mainstream?

[Stan Onymous]

40 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

It is unrealistic for you to expect small package and big battery.  For them to take care of the 50 people, they would have to neglect the thousands.  Who in their right mind as a company would do that?

Companies have and do. Its not like those who want less range wouldnt be able to use the same machine. They would, and the added benefit of not having range and charging anxiety would translate to a much better all around experience. Look at the 18 speed bike. Does that mean you have to use all 18?

"If we made it for you, then everyone would want it" was something I heard in a restaurant once. Yeah, that would be awful. The thousands would ofcourse love it too. In a day I can easily do 50 miles just going to work, Home Depot, the market, fastfood, the drugstore, Autozone, and then for some fun at night or early morning. The only reason why more dont, is because they have a 15 mile max range, and then have to wait hours for it to charge up.

when ten speeds hit the bike market in the 60's and 70's, they didnt seal it off as a niche market to road racers, they made it easy for anyone to go around town more efficiently than a beach cruiser or 3spd. Its a market driver now, and prices have fallen from the $20,000 market to $5000 for the best quality stuff. Now how many 18+ speed bikes do you find? Its a big market because it allows choice for the consumer. Even if they only use 3 gears.

 

[eddiemoy]

2 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

Companies have and do. Its not like those who want less range wouldnt be able to use the same machine. They would, and the added benefit of not having range and charging anxiety would translate to a much better all around experience. Look at the 18 speed bike. Does that mean you have to use all 18?

"If we made it for you, then everyone would want it" was something I heard in a restaurant once. Yeah, that would be awful. The thousands would ofcourse love it too. In a day I can easily do 50 miles just going to work, Home Depot, the market, fastfood, the drugstore, Autozone, and then for some fun at night or early morning. The only reason why more dont, is because they have a 15 mile max range, and then have to wait hours for it to charge up.

when ten speeds hit the bike market in the 60's and 70's, they didnt seal it off as a niche market to road racers, they made it easy for anyone to go around town more efficiently than a beach cruiser or 3spd. Its a market driver now, and prices have fallen from the $20,000 market to $5000 for the best quality stuff. Now how many 18+ speed bikes do you find? Its a big market because it allows choice for the consumer. Even if they only use 3 gears.

 

I think your 18speed bike analogy is flawed.  It doesn't cost much to put another cog on the bike.  It cost a lot more to put batteries into the EUC and at the expense of valuable real estate.  You can't just decide to put in 2400wh into a King Song 16" wheel.  It won't fit.  The manufacturer put in the most they can in the space they have for the audience they have.  It is supply and demand, you seem to think they should make it and people would buy it.  It doesn't work that way for small companies.  If they make it and people don't buy it, they go bankrupt.  

If you want it, @Austin Marhold can custom build one for you with the speed and Wh you want.  You will just have to pay through the nose for it.  

[Stan Onymous]

18 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

The manufacturer put in the most they can in the space they have for the audience they have.

I am the audience they have. Bike riders who spend the same for a bike are the audience they have. The technology is fast upon us now to have both in the very near future. I agree, 2400wh is too much for now for a KS16 carriage, but it wont be in the future. There is enough room for 840wh and probably 1380wh is max, but the options should be there. The batteries are used in the ks18 so why not have them fit as many models as it can to save in costs and maximize model desirability? You can still putter around on the 420wh battery packs quite nicely, and when you or others are ready you can upgrade. Whats the business harm in that? Its model synergy and thats efficient. It also allows the dealers to upsell the buyers on more appropriate models. This was the whole idea behind GM. - Chevy, pontiac, buick, oldsmobile, cadillac were all choices that had differing engines 4,6,8 cylinders that sometimes would fit in the same models up and down the manufacturing line. The idea was to upsell the buyers to something they would aspire to. It worked for quite a few decades.

Dont fool yourself, I am looking into what @Austin Marhold is doing, but Ninebot z models were there on my radar even before he came to my attention. So manufacturers are listening. I think Jason said the under $1000 market is hottest for the first time buyers market.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

I've run about over 3hours before on the KS18S and still had 70% battery left.

I think that explains why you don't feel like you need a bigger battery

After 3 hours at 25-30 km/h speeds, I have 75km which is my ACM 1300Wh range in good temperatures. Could easily use up twice that.

Did a 55 km spontaneous ride today,  bit over 2 hours ride time (and 3 overall). Day before yesterday, 55 km too, could have easily done doubled that, was in the zone   and feet didn't hurt at all. So your "rider must give up before the wheel does" motto (which I 110% agree too, both in range as well as stress on the wheel and anything else) is far from achieved (for me) with today's standard battery sizes or even biggest battery options for most wheels.

And that's before you get a wheel that won't fry on inclines (Hello, sweet 18L, I'm waiting for you!) and can be used on real mountains. Mountains need a lot of energy, you basically lose 1km range for every 150m height gain (rough experience value).

Give me 3000 Wh and I'll find a day route where it's not enough

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, eddiemoy said:

I think Jason would have a good idea about sales.  Jason mention that the below $1000 is the hot sale items.  I have a feeling the big sellers are really not all that big.  10 units consider big? 20?  I'm interested in how popular they are.  I'm certain it is not as popular as you think, Marty.  I don't think that most people who take the time to learn become enthusiast either.  I gave my X3 to a friend's son to learn when I couldn't learn it.  He is far from being an enthusiast.  The one person I bumped into in Maryland wasn't an enthusiast.  In my 4 months of riding I've not seen a single other person riding in the wild.  Even in the citi streets weekend ride a month ago, I saw only one out of the two sessions I rode.  That other person was definitely not an enthusiast.  The only enthusiast were the people I met up on this forum for the second run for citi streets.  

@Jason McNeil, can you give us an idea of what the sales numbers are like for the bigger units and do you see the sales picking up?  A big difference between this year and last year?  Any indication that it is going mainstream?

You win. I guess most people don't really want too much range. I'm going to horde my existing wheels because Gotway and KingSong will probably soon stop producing the high capacity versions 

[eddiemoy]

1 minute ago, Stan Onymous said:

I am the audience they have. Bike riders who spend the same for a bike are the audience they have. The technology is fast upon us now to have both in the very near future. I agree, 2400wh is too much for now for a KS16 carriage, but it wont be in the future. There is enough room for 840wh and probably 1380wh is max, but the options should be there. The batteries are used in the ks18 so why not have them fit as many models as it can to save in costs and maximize model desirability? You can still putter around on the 420wh battery packs quite nicely, and when you or others are ready you can upgrade. Whats the business harm in that? Its model synergy and thats efficient. It also allows the dealers to upsell the buyers on more appropriate models. This was the whole idea behind GM. - Chevy, pontiac, buick, oldsmobile, cadillac were all choices that had differing engines 4,6,8 cylinders that sometimes would fit in the same models up and down the manufacturing line. The idea was to upsell the buyers to something they would aspire to. It worked for quite a few decades.

Different audience for the KS18 vs 16.  There are those who like the small form factor of the 16 who don't like the bigger 18.  You are right, they probably have the room to fit higher capacity cells in the same room they have, but the higher capacity cells are not cost effective.  Just like it is on the Tesla MS and MX, they could have used the highest capacity cells, to give you a 500mile car, but they would have to charge you $200k for it.  Even though there were people willing to pay, Tesla didn't make them because the number of people who wanted it didn't warrant the engineering effort.  And if Tesla didn't do that, why do you think any of the tiny EUC manufacturers would do it?  Apple doesn't even do it.  

[eddiemoy]

26 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I think that explains why you don't feel like you need a bigger battery

After 3 hours at 25-30 km/h speeds, I have 75km which is my ACM 1300Wh range in good temperatures. Could easily use up twice that.

Did a 55 km spontaneous ride today,  bit over 2 hours ride time (and 3 overall). Day before yesterday, 55 km too, could have easily done doubled that, was in the zone   and feet didn't hurt at all. So your "rider must give up before the wheel does" motto (which I 110% agree too, both in range as well as stress on the wheel and anything else) is far from achieved (for me) with today's standard battery sizes or even biggest battery options for most wheels.

And that's before you get a wheel that won't fry on inclines (Hello, sweet 18L, I'm waiting for you!) and can be used on real mountains. Mountains need a lot of energy, you basically lose 1km range for every 150m height gain (rough experience value).

Give me 3000 Wh and I'll find a day route where it's not enough

LOL, the 3000Wh wheel would be too big.  I'm sure the they can fit that in the monster.  Yes, I'm sure there are a few here on the forums who do this on a daily basis, but that doesn't make it good business practice.  Someone can probably make a battery for you with the highest capacity batteries.  The number of people that do this isn't all that many, that is why the EUC manufacturers don't sell them like that.  If you can afford it just customize it.  Waiting for the EUC manufacturer to make one for you will take a while.  another 5-10 years?  LOL

[eddiemoy]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

You win. I guess most people don't really want too much range. I'm going to horde my existing wheels because Gotway and KingSong will probably soon stop producing the high capacity versions 

Marty, it isn't hard to build your own custom battery if that is what you need.  Just get the wheel you want and figure out how to retrofit a bigger battery on it.  

[meepmeepmayer]

18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm going to horde my existing wheels because Gotway and KingSong will probably soon stop producing the high capacity versions 

That's my worry too, in a year or so if I would want to buy a wheel with bigger range, the ooooooold 2400 Monster or a 1600Wh ACM upgrade (aka crappy Gotway electronics in both cases) are the only off-the-shelf possibilities

@eddiemoy No offense, but you need to get off your self-fulfilling "They don't produce it so it must mean it makes no economic sense" blind market belief We're talking about Chinese manufacturers, you know how they are - a bit slow on the feedback implementation Might as well argue people don't like wheels with redundancy, really good electronics,  cushioned pedals, higher pedals, better lights, or whatever else because these aren't sold.

We've literally been told in this thread (holy offtopic btw) that KS would not even have built the 14S (840 Wh) without their customers asking for it - and if I'm going to bet on the 14D vs 14S sales numbers (even ignoring how the 14D price point may be attractive to and specifically attract a lot of new riders), I knew which one I'd believe is bigger (or even just significantly nonzero enough to matter).

You may be right though, building a custom battery may be the only way left if it goes on like this... (means a high center of mass though, because you'll have to pile on top instead of having them low by design).