Mten3 First Impressions / Review - BUY ONE NOW!!!

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

I haven't read all the posts about this wheel choice, but, having been thrown off a 340Wh wheel more times than I care to remember, I wouldn't recommend a battery that small. never mind the limp mode value.  You'll be the one in limp mode, if your power demand at or around 50% battery is temporarily higher than the BMS will allow.  "Dirt! let me introduce face"  Once my 340Wh is below about 70% I am my own Limp mode; evaluating every slope, every curb ramp, ever need for speed or braking, in order not to be thrown off by the BMS. "rider says yes, BMS says NO! NO! NO! GET OFF ME YOU BE-OTCH!

Just my 2cents

I'm not sure you can apply your experience (low power 340wh wheel) to the Mten3. I do agree that if possible the largest battery should be chosen for safety margins, but I suspect that the 325wh Mten3 would perform on a whole different level. I admit though that I have no personal experience with that model.

[Smoother]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm not sure you can apply your experience (low power 340wh wheel) to the Mten3. I do agree that if possible the largest battery should be chosen for safety margins, but I suspect that the 325wh Mten3 would perform on a whole different level. I admit though that I have no personal experience with that model.

I'm no rocket surgeon, but when I was paying attention at school, there was something about a certain task taking a defined amount of work.  So if two rider of the same overall weight are climbing the same slope at the same speed, and all other things being equal, the same amount of work is being done.  Work in this place results in Whrs being consumed.

So if 200Wh is demanded temporarily and there's only 180Wh reserve in your 340/325 battery, Survey says NO.  Face plant, no matter what brand of wheel.  But if you've got 250Wh left Survey says YES, proceed safely.  NO?  am I looking at it wrong? All I know is Once I was thrown UP a slope at speed (and I was slowing down for it too) , because My battery was lower than 70% and the wheel just tipped forward, Gotway style (gamyun style), which was a new experience for me on my KrackWrong.

[Marty Backe]

22 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I'm no rocket surgeon, but when I was paying attention at school, there was something about a certain task taking a defined amount of work.  So if two rider of the same overall weight are climbing the same slope at the same speed, and all other things being equal, the same amount of work is being done.  Work in this place results in Whrs being consumed.

So if 200Wh is demanded temporarily and there's only 180Wh reserve in your 340/325 battery, Survey says NO.  Face plant, no matter what brand of wheel.  But if you've got 250Wh left Survey says YES, proceed safely.  NO?  am I looking at it wrong? All I know is Once I was thrown UP a slope at speed (and I was slowing down for it too) , because My battery was lower than 70% and the wheel just tipped forward, Gotway style (gamyun style), which was a new experience for me on my KrackWrong.

I agree. What we don't know (at least I don't know) is the actual power needed.

From my hours on the Mten3, I've done an awful lot of high demand (strong reversals) riding with the wheel below 50% battery.

But certainly in broad strokes I would always recommend the strongest motor and largest battery for safety. I'm totally with you.

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

What we don't know (at least I don't know) is the actual power needed.

What I do know is the power I had available was less than the power needed to climb that ramp.  Whether I missed it by 5 Watts or 50, a miss is a miss.  "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades".  Even with my "huge" 840Wh 16s, I'm mindful of battery charge, but  50% of that is still more than 100% of my 340Wh, and climbing that ramp (in Denia Spain, so not easy to reproduce right now) would have demanded the same current, give or take an amp. I would have made it.

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Smoother said:

What I do know is the power I had available was less than the power needed to climb that ramp.  Whether I missed it by 5 Watts or 50, a miss is a miss.  "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades".  Even with my "huge" 840Wh 16s, I'm mindful of battery charge, but  50% of that is still more than 100% of my 340Wh, and climbing that ramp (in Denia Spain, so not easy to reproduce right now) would have demanded the same current, give or take an amp. I would have made it.

I've always use the 3rd alarm on my Gotway wheels to keep me in check and generally use them any way I want down to 20% (under load).

[Smoother]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

I've always use the 3rd alarm on my Gotway wheels to keep me in check and generally use them any way I want down to 20% (under load).

Yeah I've got all sorts of alarms set.  Remember why I call her Lassie? Because I can't understand anything shes beeping at me.  There's so many beeps.  However, in this instance, IF there was an alarm, I was hearing it as I was flying through the air.  It was as instant as the Tesla wipe out, no warning. Just like @LanghamPs 2 foot stool, rope around ankles, friend yanks rope, scenario.

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Yeah I've got all sorts of alarms set.  Remember why I call her Lassie? Because I can't understand anything shes beeping at me.  There's so many beeps.  However, in this instance, IF there was an alarm, I was hearing it as I was flying through the air.  It was as instant as the Tesla wipe out, no warning. Just like @LanghamPs 2 foot stool, rope around ankles, friend yanks rope, scenario.

BTW, I didn't mean to come across as doubting your experience.

On my Gotway wheels the only beep I'll ever hear besides the on/off beep, is the 3rd alarm. And I never hear that. I mostly ride in the 18 to 20mph zone with short spurts up to maybe 25mph. Since all of my wheels are very powerful, I essentially never hear beeps unless I'm in the low battery (<15%) realm.

[Smoother]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

BTW, I didn't mean to come across as doubting your experience.

I didn't think that, that's not your style.  From my experience with a small battery, and lower power levels, its shocking how fast the BMS will shut you down, during a power demand spike.

I found your 325Wh endorsement quite interesting in light of your recent post referring to 630 and 840 batteries as "small".  If I knew then, how much fun EUCing is, I would have spent more and got a bigger battery to start with.  I didn't find this forum until after my wheel was ordered.  I remember well, all the doubts with pulling the trigger on buying something as wild as this seems from the other side (the side that doesn't ride)

we are "The Side that Rides" 

[Marty Backe]

15 minutes ago, Smoother said:

I didn't think that, that's not your style.  From my experience with a small battery, and lower power levels, its shocking how fast the BMS will shut you down, during a power demand spike.

I found your 325Wh endorsement quite interesting in light of your recent post referring to 630 and 840 batteries as "small".  If I knew then, how much fun EUCing is, I would have spent more and got a bigger battery to start with.  I didn't find this forum until after my wheel was ordered.  I remember well, all the doubts with pulling the trigger on buying something as wild as this seems from the other side (the side that doesn't ride)

we are "The Side that Rides" 

My endorsement was strictly based on his remark that the wheel will be used for distances under 10-miles and his wheel budget was limited. Also, I don't think I would suggest this for any wheel other than the Mten3. Although it has the bones to move fast, it's wheelhouse is slow-speed fun.

With all your talk of fast shutting down BMS's, I think I'm now afraid to ride any of my wheels below 50%    Thanks for that! 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

 Maybe it's just the way I ride, but I haven't had a BMS shutdown ever or wheel related faceplant on my Ninebot One E+ with it's 320 wh battery.  It only has a 500W motor I believe, but maybe it's because it limits me to about 20-22 kph?  It tilts back above 21-22 kph, and its never let me down going up hills or zooming quickly up to speed.  On low battery it tilts back very rapidly which can be alarming, but you just ride through it.  That's why I don't know why people dislike tiltback.  It seems to be a good way to alert the user to a low battery or too high of a speed situation.  There is also like a gradual tiltback as well as you approach 21/22 kph.  Maybe @steve454 can confirm this as sometimes I think it's all in my head.    It's like a whoa, Nelly, hold your horses - you're going too fast sort of feeling.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[electricpen]

38 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

 Maybe it's just the way I ride, but I haven't had a BMS shutdown ever or wheel related faceplant on my Ninebot One E+ with it's 320 wh battery.  It only has a 500W motor I believe, but maybe it's because it limits me to about 20-22 kph?  It tilts back above 21-22 kph, and its never let me down going up hills or zooming quickly up to speed.  On low battery it tilts back very rapidly which can be alarming, but you just ride through it.  That's why I don't know why people dislike tiltback.  It seems to be a good way to alert the user to a low battery or too high of a speed situation.  There is also like a gradual tiltback as well as you approach 21/22 kph.  Maybe @steve454 can confirm this as sometimes I think it's all in my head.    It's like a whoa, Nelly, hold your horses - you're going too fast sort of feeling.

I think people are worried about an edge case (that probably would never happen on a ninebot) where you are close to the wheel's maximum speed and you accelerate past it quickly and the wheel tries to tiltback but no longer has enough reserve power to tilt you back. It then shuts down because that attempt to tiltback pushed it over the edge into cutoff. Now arguably if you were that close to the edge you are asking for it anyway but it is possible that you could be saved from a cutout if you did not have tiltback on in that scenario.

[Marty Backe]

45 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

 Maybe it's just the way I ride, but I haven't had a BMS shutdown ever or wheel related faceplant on my Ninebot One E+ with it's 320 wh battery.  It only has a 500W motor I believe, but maybe it's because it limits me to about 20-22 kph?  It tilts back above 21-22 kph, and its never let me down going up hills or zooming quickly up to speed.  On low battery it tilts back very rapidly which can be alarming, but you just ride through it.  That's why I don't know why people dislike tiltback.  It seems to be a good way to alert the user to a low battery or too high of a speed situation.  There is also like a gradual tiltback as well as you approach 21/22 kph.  Maybe @steve454 can confirm this as sometimes I think it's all in my head.    It's like a whoa, Nelly, hold your horses - you're going too fast sort of feeling.

I primarily turn off tilt-back as a safety measure. I'm sure you've participated in the conversations around that theory.

I'm pretty attuned to how fast I'm going based on the wind speed. Granted this isn't very effective at low speeds, but I can tell easily when I've exceeded ~20 mph, so I don't need tilt-back to warn me.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Marty Backe

[outcast00096]

Did you see that video @Jason McNeil and @Joey Serrin posted on the 325 mten3? My heart skipped a beat.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I think the battery would have to be in pretty bad shape / very low or the firmware programmed too late for a short tiltback angle adjustment to trigger the BMS to cut off.  It probably only takes a little more current to bring the pedals up.  Maybe if the rider accelerates at a maximum rate all the way up to the tiltback speed while the battery is low, that might create a cutout if it tries to tiltback?  I've sped to 22 kph pretty quickly, and the tiltback always kicks in safely for me.

You would think that it should be possible to program the wheel so it could tilt back safely no matter what situation occurs.  It seems like the Ninebot One E+ at least seems to handle this well with 10 km of range to spare.  I've never had an issue where the tiltback did something unexpected throughout my battery range.

Where's the Mten3 video?  Oh the Facebook one.  Just watched it.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/819824711409186

Edited November 22, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[outcast00096]

 

[Marty Backe]

30 minutes ago, outcast00096 said:

Did you see that video @Jason McNeil and @Joey Serrin posted on the 325 mten3? My heart skipped a beat.

Yes, but why did your heart skip a beat?

[outcast00096]

Agility and power. Good stuff.

[Smoother]

7 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

With all your talk of fast shutting down BMS's, I think I'm now afraid to ride any of my wheels below 50%    Thanks for that! 

Now I know you're being silly.  50% of 1600Wh is still almost 100% of an 840Wh.  No BMS is concerned about a power spike at 800Wh availability, otherwise i'd set both my Ollies (tilt back for the rest of us) at 15kmh permanently.  Besides, i believe, once you've been doing this for a while, you get a feel for when to push hard and when to manage your power demand spikes, like slowing down momentarily, to climb a sharp rise like when crossing an agressive drive way cut out in the sidewalk.  I know I do.

[Smoother]

I don't have a problem with tilt back, I appreciate the feedback.  Its VIOLENT tilt back that scares the poo out of me.  @steve454 reported of a ks14 rider whose wife was riding behind him when he experienced violent tolt back.  She said it was like he was kicked into the air.  I DO know that feeling, and avoid it as much as possible.  Its a bit like Cato in the Peter Sellers Pink Panther movies.  You never know when its going to strike (within reason, of course)

Edited November 22, 2017 by Smoother

[US69]

8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

With all your talk of fast shutting down BMS's, I think I'm now afraid to ride any of my wheels below 50%    Thanks for that! 

???

What BMS shutting down? A BMS shutting down because of a voltage drop is on nowadays wheels nearly impossible!

That has been the case on older BMS from wheels about 2-3 years ago.But nowadays BMS on GW and KS dont have a "low voltage" or "voltdrop" shutdown anymore.

 

11 hours ago, Smoother said:

 

So if 200Wh is demanded temporarily and there's only 180Wh reserve in your 340/325 battery, Survey says NO.  Face plant, no matter what brand of wheel.  But if you've got 250Wh left Survey says YES, proceed safely.  NO?  am I looking at it wrong? All I know is Once I was thrown UP a slope at speed (and I was slowing down for it too) , because My battery was lower than 70% and the wheel just tipped forward, Gotway style (gamyun style), which was a new experience for me on my KrackWrong.

Unfortunatly this description is a bit wrong....you are mixing Wh and Watts

Having for example 180wh left in the battery means that this battery still can provide 180Watt for one hour Long....Even if your wheel demands 3000Watt for some seconds the Batterie will still be able to provide this energy. Yes, on older wheels you might have bad Cards.....but not on a modern wheel.

 

 

[Smoother]

3 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

 

Unfortunatly this description is a bit wrong....you are mixing Wh and Watts

Having for example 180wh left in the battery means that this battery still can provide 180Watt for one hour Long....Even if your wheel demands 3000Watt for some seconds the Batterie will still be able to provide this energy. Yes, on older wheels you might have bad Cards.....but not on a modern wheel.

 

 

ok substitute Watts for Wh and the concept remains valid.  Ask for more Watts than the battery can give in the time frame dictated (i.e. right now)  and you wont get it.  Whether its the BMS shutting down, or just that the well is dry, for the moment, you're going to lose power and face plant.  There's only so much current that can flow out of a battery pack at any given time. its not a bank, you can't get an overdraft.

[steve454]

12 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

 Maybe it's just the way I ride, but I haven't had a BMS shutdown ever or wheel related faceplant on my Ninebot One E+ with it's 320 wh battery.  It only has a 500W motor I believe, but maybe it's because it limits me to about 20-22 kph?  It tilts back above 21-22 kph, and its never let me down going up hills or zooming quickly up to speed.  On low battery it tilts back very rapidly which can be alarming, but you just ride through it.  That's why I don't know why people dislike tiltback.  It seems to be a good way to alert the user to a low battery or too high of a speed situation.  There is also like a gradual tiltback as well as you approach 21/22 kph.  Maybe @steve454 can confirm this as sometimes I think it's all in my head.    It's like a whoa, Nelly, hold your horses - you're going too fast sort of feeling.

I can't confirm this because I don't ride that fast.  I mainly ride off pavement on bike trails.  Twice I got up to 15mph (24kmh) for just a few seconds and slowed down.  That was using the app speedometer.   Never got high speed tiltback.  Set the speed limiter a few times to see what tiltback was like at 7mph (11.2kmh)  Interesting to find out that the faster I accelerated, the quicker and stronger the tiltback was.

[US69]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

ok substitute Watts for Wh and the concept remains valid.  Ask for more Watts than the battery can give in the time frame dictated (i.e. right now)  and you wont get it.  Whether its the BMS shutting down, or just that the well is dry, for the moment, you're going to lose power and face plant.  There's only so much current that can flow out of a battery pack at any given time. its not a bank, you can't get an overdraft.

Again: this only goes for old wheels with old style BMS...not for any kind of newer KS or GW....as These BMS's just dont have any low voltage protection shut down anymore.

The rider safety goes before battery protection!

But i have the very urgent Feeling you wont believe me anyway....

[jbwheel]

6 hours ago, Smoother said:

ok substitute Watts for Wh and the concept remains valid.  Ask for more Watts than the battery can give in the time frame dictated (i.e. right now)  and you wont get it.  Whether its the BMS shutting down, or just that the well is dry, for the moment, you're going to lose power and face plant.  There's only so much current that can flow out of a battery pack at any given time. its not a bank, you can't get an overdraft.

I wouldn't ride a 325Wh Mten3 because the motor and board are to powerful for such a battery, unless it is a different kind like LiPo etc... Otherwise 325Wh would be for  kids only.

[Marty Backe]

From @Rehab1