Monster Axle Nut(s) Loose - trend?

[Marty Backe]

So after I saw first hand @Sven's loose axle nut, I have now determined that mine is loose too. Over the last month or so I observed I slight 'looseness' in how the Monster handled. It's been a couple of weeks since I rode it but today it was unmistakable, particularly after seeing a worse case on @Sven's Monster.

So now I get to take my Monster apart. Hopefully I'll be able to tighten the nuts.

I have just shy of 600 miles on it, and I never jump off of curbs, etc.

The post is made so that we can catch a trend if other Monster owners start reporting the same symptoms. I have one of the original Monsters, but I'm sure there are people with more mileage than me since I split my riding between four wheels.

[dmethvin]

Are the axle nuts staked with metal shims the way they are in many other wheels? The Speedy Feet teardown didn't mention any but it looks like some may be there. It seems unlikely they'd spin loose. Or are you saying the axle was loose from the factory? There needs to be a tiny bit of play so that the bearings don't seize when they heat up, maybe there were too generous with the play.

 

[Slaughthammer]

I guess it's not the wheel nuts loosening but rather the metal plates that hold the axle in place getting worn out due to too much torque. The Monster has the biggest tire and the longest pedal hangers, so the leavers torquing the axle are quite long, yet the forces on the wheel circumference/pedals are similar to other smaller wheels, thus that point has to deal with larger amounts of torque. Gotway is using a mechanism to lock the pedal hangers to the axle that was invented for 14-16" wheels on a 22" wheel, and even on 16" wheels we have seen problems in that area.... Just another matter of Gotway engineering. Increase power/speed/size/everything until the weakest part brakes, then reinforce only that spot to see what brakes next.

btw, bigger diameter axles would also solve this problem, as well as the cabling issues...

Edited August 5, 2017 by Slaughthammer

[US69]

14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

So after I saw first hand @Sven's loose axle nut, I have now determined that mine is loose too. Over the last month or so I observed I slight 'looseness' in how the Monster handled. It's been a couple of weeks since I rode it but today it was unmistakable, particularly after seeing a worse case on @Sven's Monster.

So now I get to take my Monster apart. Hopefully I'll be able to tighten the nuts.

I have just shy of 600 miles on it, and I never jump off of curbs, etc.

The post is made so that we can catch a trend if other Monster owners start reporting the same symptoms. I have one of the original Monsters, but I'm sure there are people with more mileage than me since I split my riding between four wheels.

Its -in my view- not only on Monsters. I had the same on my V3...loose nuts and worn out metal wedges.

Its -depending on mileage,drivestyle, weight and so on- a thing happening to a lot of GW users. On my V3 it appeared after about 1200 Km.

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, dmethvin said:

Are the axle nuts staked with metal shims the way they are in many other wheels? The Speedy Feet teardown didn't mention any but it looks like some may be there. It seems unlikely they'd spin loose. Or are you saying the axle was loose from the factory? There needs to be a tiny bit of play so that the bearings don't seize when they heat up, maybe there were too generous with the play.

 

 

2 hours ago, Slaughthammer said:

I guess it's not the wheel nuts loosening but rather the metal plates that hold the axle in place getting worn out due to too much torque. The Monster has the biggest tire and the longest pedal hangers, so the leavers torquing the axle are quite long, yet the forces on the wheel circumference/pedals are similar to other smaller wheels, thus that point has to deal with larger amounts of torque. Gotway is using a mechanism to lock the pedal hangers to the axle that was invented for 14-16" wheels on a 22" wheel, and even on 16" wheels we have seen problems in that area.... Just another matter of Gotway engineering. Increase power/speed/size/everything until the weakest part brakes, then reinforce only that spot to see what brakes next.

btw, bigger diameter axles would also solve this problem, as well as the cabling issues...

When I say axle nuts, I mean that the shims have loosened their grip on the axle. I may be able to apply more force on the nuts which will then force the wedges against the axle. Or I may have to fix the wedges. I haven't opened the wheel yet.

Just by coincidence I rode @Mushuukyou's ~2 year old ACM today, during a group ride. His ACM axle nuts are loose too.

[Sven]

Uhoh bad news for @Jason McNeil

[Marty Backe]

55 minutes ago, Sven said:

Uhoh bad news for @Jason McNeil

My Monster is from Speedyfeet.

In any case, I'm just going to fix it myself - I think it falls under the category of wear & tear.

[Sven]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

My Monster is from Speedyfeet.

In any case, I'm just going to fix it myself - I think it falls under the category of wear & tear.

Jason covers wear and tear within a year lol

[CaptainKBLS]

Guys, could you describe more how I could recognize this problem.   Since I'll be a ACM16 owner I want to know when the problem happens.  

Thank you.

[US69]

19 minutes ago, CaptainKBLS said:

Guys, could you describe more how I could recognize this problem.   Since I'll be a ACM16 owner I want to know when the problem happens.  

Thank you.

It all starts, that you hear the Shell  making a "gnarking -knic-knac" Sound :-) of plastic moving when you are doing hard movements on the pedals like strong braking, or idling back and forth!

The Shell starts to move because the pedal arms are not anymore completly forced on the axle, so the left and right pedalarm have a bit of Play, which then starts to make sounds on the Shell case. In this condition, you are not able to reproduce the left/right pedal arm movement by Hand, it is just on hard braking, idling, applying force to the wheel.

When it starts to get worse, you get more and more Play on the axle/pedal arms...which even can result in strong wheel shaking then, when moving the wheel by Hand, means that the axle is now bumping between the max possible movements it can do between pedal arms.

Then nothing more hepls to open and fix the nuts or even Change those wedges as they can be teared down a lot.

Sorry, can not describe it better :-)

Edited August 6, 2017 by KingSong69

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, CaptainKBLS said:

Guys, could you describe more how I could recognize this problem.   Since I'll be a ACM16 owner I want to know when the problem happens.  

Thank you.

I'll add a little to what @KingSong69 has already explained. When you are riding and you apply some forward or backward lean there is a delay before the wheel reacts, because of the additional 'play' in the connection between the body of the wheel and the axle.

Imagine the steering wheel of your car. If the steering wheel was slightly loose on the 'axle' that protrudes from the dash, as you turned the steering wheel to the left there would be a dead zone where the car wheels did not turn until the steering wheel re-engaged with the 'axle'. That is the effect felt when riding. It detracts from your ride quality and at some point makes the wheel more dangerous to ride.

[CaptainKBLS]

Argh! Did I just make a mistake by buying a Gotway????

[Marty Backe]

40 minutes ago, CaptainKBLS said:

Argh! Did I just make a mistake by buying a Gotway????

You did make a mistake if you expected the perfect wheel. That being said, loose axle nuts are still relatively rare. But it's something to be aware of so that if you experience the symptoms you know what the cause is.

[Demian B]

I'm fairly confident my Monster has been plagued by this after 400 miles. It's been collecting cobwebs for the past month and a half while I wait for a proper control board but it likely won't remedy the situation. I was hoping I wouldn't have to remove the panel from the pedal supports to access the wedges.  I don't like messing with the wiring looms any more than necessary. 

[thead]

I just opened up my week old MSuper V3S+  to check the connections and the axle nuts.  
I was getting a slight wobble so i opened it up to see what i could find. The axle nuts seemed tight i could only check one side because of the motor wire coming out the axle. Gotway must have a special tool or socket. Anyway it was tight. Hope it doesn't loosen up in the future, it only has 40 miles on it so far.

[Marty Backe]

50 minutes ago, thead said:

I just opened up my week old MSuper V3S+  to check the connections and the axle nuts.  
I was getting a slight wobble so i opened it up to see what i could find. The axle nuts seemed tight i could only check one side because of the motor wire coming out the axle. Gotway must have a special tool or socket. Anyway it was tight. Hope it doesn't loosen up in the future, it only has 40 miles on it so far.

No special tool involve. When the case is removed you have full access to the nut. It's only when the case is attached that the nut is hard to reach with a wrench.

[dmethvin]

18 hours ago, thead said:

I was getting a slight wobble

Hi @thead and welcome! Search for "wobble" for some other possibilities for the wobble, the position of your feet can make a big difference.

[CaptainKBLS]

23 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

You did make a mistake if you expected the perfect wheel. That being said, loose axle nuts are still relatively rare. But it's something to be aware of so that if you experience the symptoms you know what the cause is.

Let's break this down.  I'm looking for a consumer product which means I just want to get on, press forward or backward.

I love learning new things but I'm just too busy (full time job, full time with kids, remodelling two bathrooms, currency trader) and don't want to be a EUC techy.

At the current technology, does all EUC require you to be a EUC techy?  or specifically is one brand closer to consumer vs having to be a techy (KS vs GW for example).

Where do the ACM16 stands vs KS?

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, CaptainKBLS said:

Let's break this down.  I'm looking for a consumer product which means I just want to get on, press forward or backward.

I love learning new things but I'm just too busy (full time job, full time with kids, remodelling two bathrooms, currency trader) and don't want to be a EUC techy.

At the current technology, does all EUC require you to be a EUC techy?  or specifically is one brand closer to consumer vs having to be a techy (KS vs GW for example).

Where do the ACM16 stands vs KS?

If you hear what @Jason McNeil has to say about quality, KingSong had a period where their failure rate was ~30%. So I think it's a mistake to consider KingSong the Gold Standard. This subject has been beaten to death (at least it seems that way to me). Yes, KingSong appears to have higher quality standards than Gotway. But most ACM's are not falling apart on people. It's important to maintain perspective. Most Gotway wheels haven't had their motor cables separate. The list goes on.

I think of Gotway as a high performance sports car from the 60's/70's. Powerful and desirable, but finicky to maintain. That's the price of admission. If you prefer not to pay the 'price', go with KingSong.

[CaptainKBLS]

Thank you.

Sometimes you just don't pay much attention to things until you have to.

Edited August 8, 2017 by CaptainKBLS

[dpong]

I agree.  For right now, by your criteria, go with KingSong. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by dpong

[Marty Backe]

9 minutes ago, dpong said:

I agree.  For right now, by your criteria, go with KingSong. 

You should amend your statement to, "by your criteria, I'll go with KingSong". It's really a very personal decision that can't be relegated to others.

[CaptainKBLS]

Well the ACM is on its way so I'm sorta stuck with it.  Looks like I'll have to be a techy like you guys, it's not a bad thing.

[dpong]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

You should amend your statement to, "by your criteria, I'll go with KingSong". It's really a very personal decision that can't be relegated to others.

I would have, but I don't have kids, not remodeling 2 bathrooms, not a currency trader, etc.  I too, do not want to be a EUC techie.  So, *for right now*, yes.

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, dpong said:

I would have, but I don't have kids, not remodeling 2 bathrooms, not a currency trader, etc.  I too, do not want to be a EUC techie.  So, *for right now*, yes.

I'm not criticizing, but I'm confused. What does not having having kids or not remodeling 2 bathrooms have to do with Gotway vs KingSong