I want a ACM... but legal issues

[D i c K (ie)]

9 hours ago, em1barns said:

@craio, going back to AG insurance, just taking the standard RC family insurance is good enough. No need for a certificate of conformity, no need to ask for a green card for motorized engine. The only limitation is that the max speed of your EUC should not exceed 45km/h, which still gives a good range of EUC to choose from  .

Woohoo!!  I just checked, and I also have insurance Top Familiale. I am insured until i reach 1000km with my KS-18S...  But I don't think I will change the speed to > 45km/h when I can unlock it. To be sure: I don't need to inform AG insurance about the fact I have a monowheel?

[ir_fuel]

No, since it is covered anyway.

[Roue Libre]

On 8/9/2017 at 10:25 PM, D i c K (ie) said:

Woohoo!!  I just checked, and I also have insurance Top Familiale. I am insured until i reach 1000km with my KS-18S

I suspect, the day you have an accident they will say "yes but... your wheel... it's not legal" and you won't have any coverage.
I would be keen to have an insurance too, but I am afraid they won't cover any accident anyway.

[US69]

On ‎09‎.‎08‎.‎2017 at 10:25 PM, D i c K (ie) said:

Woohoo!!  I just checked, and I also have insurance Top Familiale. I am insured until i reach 1000km with my KS-18S...  But I don't think I will change the speed to > 45km/h when I can unlock it. To be sure: I don't need to inform AG insurance about the fact I have a monowheel?

I would not been to optimistic about this insurance at all...like @Roue Libre said..

Same Thing in Germany...some private household insurance cover EUC's o e-scooters..."as Long as they are not vehicle" or "not used in public space/traffic".

And pretty much all guess that in a case of accident they refuse to pay! 

Also when beeing controlled by Police, this Kind of insurance helps nothing here, as my/our EUC just don't have the right papers for street legality(=COC or equal).

 

 

[ir_fuel]

50 minutes ago, Roue Libre said:

I suspect, the day you have an accident they will say "yes but... your wheel... it's not legal" and you won't have any coverage.
I would be keen to have an insurance too, but I am afraid they won't cover any accident anyway.

 

It states (sorry, it's in Dutch):

Uw mobiliteit is niet vergeten!
Top Familiale dekt ook de materiële en lichamelijke schade veroorzaakt door:

• niet-gemotoriseerde voortbewegingstoestellen zoals de 'klassieke' fiets, skateboard of rolschaatsen;
• autonome elektrische fietsen tot 25 km/u en de fiets met trapondersteuning zonder snelheidslimiet;
• de nieuwe gemotoriseerde voortbewegingstoestellen tot 45 km/u zoals de e-step, hoverboard, monowheel en segway;
• (elektrische) rolstoel tot 25 km/u.

 

 

This means that they insure monowheels that can go up to 45 km/h.

 

Then of course there is the law that states what you can and can't use. According to Belgian law you can use it legally on the road as long as the device isn't capable of exceeding 18 km/h. If you ride slowly you must be on the sidewalk, otherwise you must be where cyclists also ride. 

So legally I can ride my practice wheel on public roads (max speed 18 km/h), but I can't do the same with the V8 as that goes up to 30. In this case it is considered a motor vehicle and as such requires insurance (the same style of insurance you would for instance get for a scooter). The only question there is: what insurance company can insure you, as they are mostly old fashioned companies following old fashioned procedures. They will want to see a CoC, which is non existent for these devices, so we're back to square one.

 

 

If I understand it correctly, your "familiale" will insure you if you have an accident on the road, but you'll still get fined by the police for riding an unauthorized vehicle.

 

I'm going to ask my insurance broker if he knows anything about this.

[Roue Libre]

7 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

de nieuwe gemotoriseerde voortbewegingstoestellen tot 45 km/u zoals de e-step, hoverboard, monowheel en segway

Sounds interesting for my ACM ... Is it AG Insurance ?

[ir_fuel]

Just now, Roue Libre said:

Sounds interesting for my ACM ... Is it AG Insurance ?

Yes it is.

But also read the legal part  

I just sent him a mail. I'll let you know.

[US69]

21 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Uw mobiliteit is niet vergeten!
Top Familiale dekt ook de materiële en lichamelijke schade veroorzaakt door:

• niet-gemotoriseerde voortbewegingstoestellen zoals de 'klassieke' fiets, skateboard of rolschaatsen;
• autonome elektrische fietsen tot 25 km/u en de fiets met trapondersteuning zonder snelheidslimiet;
• de nieuwe gemotoriseerde voortbewegingstoestellen tot 45 km/u zoals de e-step, hoverboard, monowheel en segway;
• (elektrische) rolstoel tot 25 km/u.

Are there any other "requirements" or Statements for this?

I ask because in the german "household/famili insurance there are some "small printed" which makes this all useless....

[ir_fuel]

52 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Are there any other "requirements" or Statements for this?

I ask because in the german "household/famili insurance there are some "small printed" which makes this all useless....

No.

This is Belgium. We have a lot of rules, but we are not as regulated as the Germans (which is a good and a bad thing at the same time )

[US69]

8 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

No.

This is Belgium. We have a lot of rules, but we are not as regulated as the Germans (which is a good and a bad thing at the same time )

Ok :-)

So do i understand it correct for Belgium:

Under 18kmh, a EUC is ok

For faster EUC's you Need a insurance, but an insurance "like cars"...and not this "included one"?

 

So this "AG incurance" gives you an insurance...but not the allowance to drive on streets as you still would Need an COC for that?

Dont get me wrong... i am happy for every driver without legal issues, and i for myself would be happy if our german bureocratie would be cooler and make it easier :-)

I personally have insurance/number plate's for my EUC and Police cant get me on this "insurance-thing" anymore...but unfortunatly there is still the street legality-COC missing.

 

[ir_fuel]

Just now, KingSong69 said:

Ok :-)

So do i understand it correct for Belgium:

Under 18kmh, a EUC is ok

Correct. So my practice wheel that can't go faster than 18km/h and starts beeping at 15 is perfectly legal to ride on the street, or wherever cyclists are allowed. My V8 isn't because of it's higher speed, even if I were to ride slower than 18.

Just now, KingSong69 said:

For faster EUC's you Need a insurance, but an insurance "like cars"...and not this "included one"?

Correct. It's like scooter insurance. 

Just now, KingSong69 said:

So this "AG incurance" gives you an insurance...but not the allowance to drive on streets as you still would Need an COC for that?

You don't need a CoC for that. You need a separate insurance for your "vehicle", a separate paper (and separate payment). The question is: what company will give that to you without asking for CoC papers for the "vehicle". I am trying to figure this out. Also does this mean that if you buy 5 eucs that you will need to pay 5 times insurance?

Just now, KingSong69 said:

I personally have insurance/number plate's for my EUC and Police cant get me on this "insurance-thing" anymore...but unfortunatly there is still the street legality-COC missing.

That wouldn't be an issue in Belgium. If you have a specific insurance for the vehicle, it's ok to use it. Plenty of cars have insurance without having a CoC (old cars, or cars produced in very limited quantities).

[ir_fuel]

It's a bit of a grey area, and the problem is that as long as it doesn't get popular it's still ok. Once it really gets popular stupid people will start doing stupid things, resulting in all kinds of stupid rules being enforced (next you'll need a euc driving license, can't ride in shorts or t shirt, CE approved motorbike helmet required etc ... just as for a scooter that can do 45 km/h ...).

[US69]

6 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Correct. It's like scooter insurance. 

Quote

So this "AG incurance" gives you an insurance...but not the allowance to drive on streets as you still would Need an COC for that?

You don't need a CoC for that. You need a separate insurance for your "vehicle", a separate paper (and separate payment). The question is: what company will give that to you without asking for CoC papers for the "vehicle". I am trying to figure this out. Also does this mean that if you buy 5 eucs that you will need to pay 5 times insurance?

Quote

I personally have insurance/number plate's for my EUC and Police cant get me on this "insurance-thing" anymore...but unfortunatly there is still the street legality-COC missing.

That wouldn't be an issue in Belgium. If you have a specific insurance for the vehicle, it's ok to use it. Plenty of cars have insurance without having a CoC (old cars, or cars produced in very limited quantities).

So, it is  nearly "as same as" stupid as in Germany:

Here, the needed Insurance is included and together with an "Scooter Number Plate"....But the Problem is:

These "Number plates with incl. Insurance" are given out by Insurance-Company's and 99,9% will not give it out to an EUC, because EUC does not really fit into any categorie and also the papers(COC) are missing.... ( the Company that gives me mine is also not doing it any longer, i was just lucky)

9 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

It's a bit of a grey area, and the problem is that as long as it doesn't get popular it's still ok. Once it really gets popular stupid people will start doing stupid things, resulting in all kinds of stupid rules being enforced (next you'll need a euc driving license, can't ride in shorts or t shirt, CE approved motorbike helmet required etc ... just as for a scooter that can do 45 km/h ...).

I am totally with you!!!

[craio]

Following the advise of some and against the advise of others , I've bought an ACM 820Wh thursday (should be big enough for me) , should arrive monday.

In addition also G-Fom Pro X knee/elbow pads, Demon Flexmeter wristprotection and a standard bicycle/skate helmet.To top it all off a charge doctor. The only thing missing is padding to protect the shell.

And then you read that gotway is probably introducing a new wheel

 

[US69]

8 minutes ago, craio said:

Following the advise of some and against the advise of others , I've bought an ACM 820Wh thursday (should be big enough for me) , should arrive monday.

In addition also G-Fom Pro X knee/elbow pads, Demon Flexmeter wristprotection and a standard bicycle/skate helmet.To top it all off a charge doctor. The only thing missing is padding to protect the shell.

And then you read that gotway is probably introducing a new wheel

 

what made you choose a 820wh 67volt instead of a 1300wh 84volt? hope you dont regret that later...

The GW "tesla" seams to be a 14inch ...and its always good not to be GW's betatester ;-)

[craio]

17 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

what made you choose a 820wh 67volt instead of a 1300wh 84volt?

The GW "tesla" seams to be a 14inch ...and its always good not to be GW's betatester ;-)

My commute is about 9km/day and that's going to be the main usage. The 1300W is wider etc and i'm skinny  (probably going to be 60-65kg with full gear), and wasn't in stock...

I should be able to get about 50km range out of it which seems plenty. If I actually start doing trips that are on the edge of the range on regular basis, i might have a look at an 18".

[US69]

12 minutes ago, craio said:

My commute is about 9km/day and that's going to be the main usage. The 1300W is wider etc and i'm skinny  (probably going to be 60-65kg with full gear), and wasn't in stock...

I should be able to get about 50km range out of it which seems plenty. If I actually start doing trips that are on the edge of the range on regular basis, i might have a look at an 18".

Wasn't the range what i meant....the range of an 1300wh isn't much longer.

Its the more power,that makes an 84volt stand out and what we are all craving for:-)

[craio]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

Wasn't the range what i meant....the range of an 1300wh isn't much longer.

Its the more power,that makes an 84volt stand out and what we are all craving for:-)

Oh, well as above mentioned i'm not allowed to go faster than 18km/h (going to stretch it to about 25km/h) so the extra power would be wasted

[ir_fuel]

22 minutes ago, craio said:

Oh, well as above mentioned i'm not allowed to go faster than 18km/h (going to stretch it to about 25km/h) so the extra power would be wasted

Doesn't matter. You are "allowed" to go as fast as you can. As soon as the device is able to go faster than 18 km/h, you're screwed, even if you are only doing 15 km/h on it.

Where are you from BTW?

[craio]

58 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Doesn't matter. You are "allowed" to go as fast as you can. As soon as the device is able to go faster than 18 km/h, you're screwed, even if you are only doing 15 km/h on it.

Where are you from BTW?

Oh wel, i hope the fine print on the AG Insurance doesn't deny to bold printed 'up to 45km/h' claim.

Bredene (small town near the coast, famous for having the first nudist beach in Belgium  (not EUC accessible))

 

 

[ir_fuel]

10 minutes ago, craio said:

Oh wel, i hope the fine print on the AG Insurance doesn't deny to bold printed 'up to 45km/h' claim.

No I am talking about Belgian law restriction to 18 km/h, before it's considered a vehicle.

10 minutes ago, craio said:

Bredene (small town near the coast, famous for having the first nudist beach in Belgium  (not EUC accessible))

I know Bredene, it's next to Oostende. Spent some holidays there as a child with a friend who has family there  

[ir_fuel]

Whew, took me some time to find this topic back.

This should be in "General" I think, as it is not really about the specific brand of euc. Maybe a mod can move this?

 

So, as I promised, I contacted my insurance broker, they contacted AG Insurance, and guess what ...

They are confused as well  

Good move, offering insurance without understanding the legal implications ... Would be great if you want to use that insurance in case something serious happens. "Ow we didn't think of that ..."

The reply I got was in dutch, but I'll translate it so everyone can understand it:

I understand that you are confused, because the insurance company is confused too.

Article 5 of "Top Familiale" indeed covers your euc up to a speed of 45 km/h, but the traffic laws contradict this. AG is able to deliver an insurance paper (green card) for this kind of vehicle however. But then again the terms and conditions of the AG vehicle insurance contradict article 5 paragraph e (this is the part where it states in Top Familiale that euc's are covered).

 

What he meant by that last phrase I don't know, so I asked for clarification, but in summary:

They offer coverage but they don't know if what they are offering is even legal, and are confused, so they are going to figure out internally how this is all supposed to work.

 

Incredible amateurism if you ask me. And then you surf the net and you see this:

 

 

[ir_fuel]

Ok some more news!

 

AG contacted my insurance broker. They will update the terms and conditions of their insurance for motor vehicles. And now the good news:

 

In order to have the euc insured it needs a "green card" (vehicle insurance paper) just like a car or a motorbike. The good news is this doesn't cost anything. I just need to transfer the info of my euc to my insurance broker and he will send me the green card for my euc, covered by "Top Familiale". So no need to pay anything extra!

 

I'll post a picture as soon as I have it.

 

edit: this is if your euc goes faster than 18 km/h. If it doesn't no extra papers are needed. If your euc goes faster than 45 km/h there is no coverage at all.

[Dancer]

I have insurance with a "green card" from KBC verzekeringen. Costs 57€/year.

[ir_fuel]

30 minutes ago, Dancer said:

I have insurance with a "green card" from KBC verzekeringen. Costs 57€/year.

That's half of what my "Top Familiale" costs. So as soon as you get 2 euc's it's more expensive, and I presume you also need a "familiale verzekering" next to this, as most sensible people do.