I want a ACM... but legal issues

[craio]

I've been lurking in this forum for a week or two now and finally decided on buying an ACM (820Wh). So looking up rules and regulations regarding them in Belgium, I've found a lot of info and contradicting rulings. In short, to be allowed on the road in Belgium, i'm required to have an insurance covering damages inflicted on 3rd party. For which i found only one insurance agency so far willing to ensure one with topspeed > 25km/u.

To be able to get said insurance i require to have a 'Attestation of Conformity" (unsure on the translation from dutch). Which is the same document like cars and motorcycles. But according to the local supplier such kind of document isn't supplied with the wheel... (didn't ask if he gets them directly from Gotway).

So in short, does this document exist? Anyone here that did get such a document when they bought an ACM?

The problem isn't limited to Gotway, same supplier says none of the wheels he sells have said document (and he also sell Inmotion, Ninebot).

 

[WARPed1701D]

On 7/5/2017 at 10:27 AM, em1barns said:

You are missing Belgium, where monowheels are authorized explicitely by law, 18km/h on roads, 6km/h on pavement. There's even a next round of discussion to move max speed to 25km/h without driving permit or vehicle registration, and 45km/h with the latter. 

Even standard family insurances now include coverage up to 45km/h here for light electric vehicles (just got one), so the country is probably one of the most advanced in terms of law.

This was posted recently by @em1barns who lives in Brussels and seems to know quite a bit about the EUC law in Belgium. Hopefully these tags will alert him/her to your post to help you out. 

[US69]

That are the so called "coc" certifications.....which you will not find for any EUC, sorry!

[craio]

11 minutes ago, WARPed1701D said:

This was posted recently by @em1barns who lives in Brussels and seems to know quite a bit about the EUC law in Belgium. Hopefully these tags will alert him/her to your post to help you out. 

Ah, gues i haven't been looking into it enough. Found the post you might be referring to:

"You are missing Belgium, where monowheels are authorized explicitely by law, 18km/h on roads, 6km/h on pavement. There's even a next round of discussion to move max speed to 25km/h without driving permit or vehicle registration, and 45km/h with the latter. 

Even standard family insurances now include coverage up to 45km/h here for light electric vehicles (just got one), so the country is probably one of the most advanced in terms of law."

What i've found so far is that the 25km/h is actually the maximum which is covered in the standard family insurances. Only found one (so far) that also covers the fasters one (by default). That maximum speed is also the thing which is the least clear. Some places state 18km/h maximum allowed on public roads, in other places it's 25km/u (so never more than that). But than the earlier mentioned insurance goes up to 45km/h which contradicts this...

[em1barns]

5 hours ago, craio said:

Ah, gues i haven't been looking into it enough. Found the post you might be referring to:

"You are missing Belgium, where monowheels are authorized explicitely by law, 18km/h on roads, 6km/h on pavement. There's even a next round of discussion to move max speed to 25km/h without driving permit or vehicle registration, and 45km/h with the latter. 

Even standard family insurances now include coverage up to 45km/h here for light electric vehicles (just got one), so the country is probably one of the most advanced in terms of law."

What i've found so far is that the 25km/h is actually the maximum which is covered in the standard family insurances. Only found one (so far) that also covers the fasters one (by default). That maximum speed is also the thing which is the least clear. Some places state 18km/h maximum allowed on public roads, in other places it's 25km/u (so never more than that). But than the earlier mentioned insurance goes up to 45km/h which contradicts this...

There is no contradiction. When you have an insurance for your car, it is insured for speeds beyond the legal ones.

AG insurance in Belgium covers EUC with max speed up to 45km/h. No need for a CoC. See https://www.aginsurance.be/Retail/nl/gezin/gezin/Paginas/familiale-verzekering.aspx

Legal speed limit in Belgium is 18km/h, by construction. No safe EUC goes at that speed. Last time I was controlled by cops they just asked me for insurance, and at which speed I was going at. Ride around 20km/h and you should not get any trouble.

Also be aware that forests have different rules for vehicles...

[em1barns]

And if this is your first wheel, think twice about ACM. It is bulky, and much less versatile than ks16b/s or msuper3.

In particular, trolley is not convenient and tends to get broken fast...

I would never recommend ACM to a beginner, as you have to fully understand and accept the cons.

[craio]

23 minutes ago, em1barns said:

There is no contradiction. When you have an insurance for your car, it is insured for speeds beyond the legal ones.

AG insurance in Belgium covers EUC with max speed up to 45km/h. No need for a CoC. See https://www.aginsurance.be/Retail/nl/gezin/gezin/Paginas/familiale-verzekering.aspx

Legal speed limit in Belgium is 18km/h, by construction. No safe EUC goes at that speed. Last time I was controlled by cops they just asked me for insurance, and at which speed I was going at. Ride around 20km/h and you should not get any trouble.

Also be aware that forests have different rules for vehicles...

I might have used the wrong wording. I mean that i found it confusing to read parts here and there and some repeated the same and other sources had alterations. It was indeed AG Insurance i was looking at and the insurance agent told me they need a CoC in order for AG Insurance to provide a 'green paper'. But it's all new to the agent aswell, so i gues i'll ask them to verify this. The other option was Vivium but that costs 50% more (and is standalone).

20 minutes ago, em1barns said:

And if this is your first wheel, think twice about ACM. It is bulky, and much less versatile than ks16b/s or msuper3.

In particular, trolley is not convenient and tends to get broken fast...

I would never recommend ACM to a beginner, as you have to fully understand and accept the cons.

For some reason i've set 1200€ as maximum to spend (for now, on the wheel) and the ACM 840Wh is what i thought (based on what I read) the better choice I was mainly comparing it to the Inmotion V8. I don't mind the trolley handle, was planning to try to make my own (3d printed parts + aluminium profiles) anyway.

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, em1barns said:

There is no contradiction. When you have an insurance for your car, it is insured for speeds beyond the legal ones.

AG insurance in Belgium covers EUC with max speed up to 45km/h. No need for a CoC. See https://www.aginsurance.be/Retail/nl/gezin/gezin/Paginas/familiale-verzekering.aspx

Legal speed limit in Belgium is 18km/h, by construction. No safe EUC goes at that speed. Last time I was controlled by cops they just asked me for insurance, and at which speed I was going at. Ride around 20km/h and you should not get any trouble.

Also be aware that forests have different rules for vehicles...

Thanks for the info!

I have that "familiale verzekering". Good to know it is covered. Wasn't aware of that  

[ir_fuel]

@craio a tip from a beginner to another beginner (I rode my euc for the first time yesterday!) Get a cheap "banger" wheel, and once you are comfortable get what you think is best and spend your cash. I bought an Inmotion V8, and since it's such a nice device I didn't want to completely screw it up while learning the basics, so I got a second one.

I bought this one from Amazon: 

https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00U1F1SEG/ref=s9u_simh_gw_i2?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00U1F1SEG&pd_rd_r=TE1Q26XJTVGNT2RMY4W0&pd_rd_w=vodeG&pd_rd_wg=e1vf7&pf_rd_m=A1X6FK5RDHNB96&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=0DRGF7Z0P2V2B5493QY0&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=a165becc-deda-4bed-878f-57fe722c3c75&pf_rd_i=desktop

 

I found it 2 weeks ago new for 250 euros, and to learn how to ride it it's just great! I glued a bunch of protective padding on it, and it comes with a luggage strap (this is a must imo) for when you are learning. Of course it won't go 35km/h or run for 30km or climb steep hills, but trust me, you won't need that in the beginning. As soon as you can ride that one like your bicycle its time to step up the game and get whatever you want. It's also nice to have if you want other people to have a go. You won't care as it is not your "nice" wheel they will be scratching when they fall off. And I guess you can even sell it second hand for not much less. 

 

But that's my 2 cents

[Dancer]

Here is a link to "Kijk uit" from 22/07

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnu/a-z/kijk-uit/2017/kijk-uit-s2017a29/

[em1barns]

9 hours ago, craio said:

I might have used the wrong wording. I mean that i found it confusing to read parts here and there and some repeated the same and other sources had alterations. It was indeed AG Insurance i was looking at and the insurance agent told me they need a CoC in order for AG Insurance to provide a 'green paper'. But it's all new to the agent aswell, so i gues i'll ask them to verify this. The other option was Vivium but that costs 50% more (and is standalone).

For some reason i've set 1200€ as maximum to spend (for now, on the wheel) and the ACM 840Wh is what i thought (based on what I read) the better choice I was mainly comparing it to the Inmo Yution V8. I don't mind the trolley handle, was planning to try to make my own (3d printed parts + aluminium profiles) anyway.

AG insurance is the most educated insurance company on EUC, they know CoC do not exist for EUC. I agree though that agents are not well educated yet, as this is a new policy since July.

For 1200 euros, you may get a second hand msuper3 with little mileage, contact onewheel or flywheel to check if they have some. It typically sells for that price on espritroue.fr for some hundreds of km.

ACM is nice wheel, but I find it to be badly packaged. Best to try it first, try taking a course with Wheels Angels (check Facebook) so you can discuss with Brussels wheeler community, if you are not living too far away.

[craio]

3 hours ago, Dancer said:

Here is a link to "Kijk uit" from 22/07

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnu/a-z/kijk-uit/2017/kijk-uit-s2017a29/

This also repeats that the 18km/h is the maximum allowed hardware speed not legal speed (like mopeds are limited to 25km/h)

21 minutes ago, em1barns said:

AG insurance is the most educated insurance company on EUC, they know CoC do not exist for EUC. I agree though that agents are not well educated yet, as this is a new policy since July.

For 1200 euros, you may get a second hand msuper3 with little mileage, contact onewheel or flywheel to check if they have some. It typically sells for that price on espritroue.fr for some hundreds of km.

ACM is nice wheel, but I find it to be badly packaged. Best to try it first, try taking a course with Wheels Angels (check Facebook) so you can discuss with Brussels wheeler community, if you are not living too far away.

The badly packaged also seems like the main issue in this review. 

I might have a look at a second hand then. I've got a friend that lives in Brussels (i live near the coast) from which i could try the MCMv3 or solowheel s300. I probably would have opted for an inmotion v8 if it had a bigger battery (and not the scraping issue).

@ir_fuelThought about buying a cheap wheel first, but somehow seemed like a waste of money (the one linked is now 400€). Adding -temporary- padding seems like the more economical choice.

[em1barns]

47 minutes ago, craio said:

This also repeats that the 18km/h is the maximum allowed hardware speed not legal speed (like mopeds are limited to 25km/h)

The badly packaged also seems like the main issue in this review. 

I might have a look at a second hand then. I've got a friend that lives in Brussels (i live near the coast) from which i could try the MCMv3 or solowheel s300. I probably would have opted for an inmotion v8 if it had a bigger battery (and not the scraping issue).

@ir_fuelThought about buying a cheap wheel first, but somehow seemed like a waste of money (the one linked is now 400€). Adding -temporary- padding seems like the more economical choice.

Learning first from a friend's wheel is an excellent option. V8 scraping issue is a one-time fix if you have a local dealer. Never saw the issue for the 5 V8 wheelers I know.

As for range, that's really up to your weight and usage, although coast can be windy so this is a high factor of battery stress as well.

In any case once you can ride, you may ask dealers to try other wheels and make an impression for yourself. A good trolley is a must and should not be under-estimated especially in cities.

[ir_fuel]

11 hours ago, em1barns said:

A good trolley is a must and should not be under-estimated especially in cities.

+1. Even my practice wheel (smaller than an Inmotion V8) is heavy to carry around longer than a couple of minutes, and since it being very low budget, there is of course no trolley handle .

[ir_fuel]

12 hours ago, craio said:

Thought about buying a cheap wheel first, but somehow seemed like a waste of money (the one linked is now 400€). Adding -temporary- padding seems like the more economical choice.

Just look around a bit

https://www.amazon.fr/Beeper-Road-R1-Gyroroue-Électrique/dp/B01MTQ45ID/ref=pd_cp_200_1?_encoding=UTF8&refRID=511Y107VB7TP3CMH9RDK

299 for the same wheel in a different color scheme  

 

[Marty Backe]

On 8/4/2017 at 1:36 PM, em1barns said:

And if this is your first wheel, think twice about ACM. It is bulky, and much less versatile than ks16b/s or msuper3.

In particular, trolley is not convenient and tends to get broken fast...

I would never recommend ACM to a beginner, as you have to fully understand and accept the cons.

My first wheel, which I learned on, was that same ACM. Just put some padding on it and you'll be fine.

It's too bad that you have to be so concerned with the law where you live. It's hard to imagine police in the States stopping an EUC rider to confirm that they have the right paperwork. Your police must not have much to do for them to be bothered with people riding EUC's.

[em1barns]

9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

My first wheel, which I learned on, was that same ACM. Just put some padding on it and you'll be fine.

It's too bad that you have to be so concerned with the law where you live. It's hard to imagine police in the States stopping an EUC rider to confirm that they have the right paperwork. Your police must not have much to do for them to be bothered with people riding EUC's.

As if there was no law for cars or motorbikes nor speed limit for them in the US. Come on Marty, this is not sensitive.

Law in Belgium is quite well done, and they are looking at moving the cursor on speed limits for EUC on roads.

Most family insurances have now included coverage of EUCs for damages to others by default, so I don't see how bad that can be either.

Overall moving smartly in the right direction, with local EUC enthusiasts working with law makers and insurances. So I am pretty positive about it, even if it is not perfect yet.

The only thing police checked was whether I had an insurance for damages to others while riding on roads. I would want others EUC drivers to have one if they collided against my kids while they cross the road...

[US69]

10 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 

It's too bad that you have to be so concerned with the law where you live. It's hard to imagine police in the States stopping an EUC rider to confirm that they have the right paperwork. Your police must not have much to do for them to be bothered with people riding EUC's.

 

Hmmmh...i doubt that driving an EUC on for example New York's car crowded streets is totally legal, or?

 

But thing is here in Germany it is nearly the same as in Belgium. That's just how (european/german) our laws for cars and traffic's are designed.

Just to explain it:

If you want to move a vehicle/car/motorbike legal in Germany you must have a number plate and automaticly included in this number plate is a insurance for the vehicle.(vehicle liability insurance)

Thats the main Point: If you move something in traffic...it has to be insured, so that if something happens a insurance pays for damage and a possible victim always will be paid even if the "causer" is totally broken...

If you are driving without insurance/plate, your are doing an criminal offense(not only a warning/fine)...and thats where the law get's us EUC users, because that is a rule for EVERYTHING which has a Motor and what is faster than 6kmh(Walking), (the only exceptions are bicycles and pedal assisting electro bycycles(but not pure e-bikes)).

They dont want something on the streets/in traffice which can cause main accidents and damage/costs without securing the responsibility.

So we Need a number plate(with insurance).....and to make the Story  short: It is hard to get the plate/papers, as our vehicles are not (yet) autorized...... (but i have them nonetheless )

 

And i guess for an american this is all hard to understand, that we have this "vehicle liability insurance" and that it is obligatory and a must and that you can not do what you want on the streets.........nearly the same as we all have an obligatory health insurance ;-)

On the other Hand no european/german can understand the "health care" Problems in the USA...Like: what? a "civilized" Country without obligatory health care?

[Marty Backe]

31 minutes ago, em1barns said:

As if there was no law for cars or motorbikes nor speed limit for them in the US. Come on Marty, this is not sensitive.

Law in Belgium is quite well done, and they are looking at moving the cursor on speed limits for EUC on roads.

Most family insurances have now included coverage of EUCs for damages to others by default, so I don't see how bad that can be either.

Overall moving smartly in the right direction, with local EUC enthusiasts working with law makers and insurances. So I am pretty positive about it, even if it is not perfect yet.

The only thing police checked was whether I had an insurance for damages to others while riding on roads. I would want others EUC drivers to have one if they collided against my kids while they cross the road...

Enforced laws for motor vehicles is one thing. But having laws for bicycles, skateboards, EUCs, etc. is where I'd prefer not to have the government involved. I'm a liberty focused guy - keep the government out of my life as much as possible. Just my opinion. Many people are OK with having their lives dictated, to varying levels, all for the common good. I shudder at the thought   There would be severe push-back in the States for any proposed insurance laws for bicycles, skateboards, electric bicycles, etc.

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

 

Hmmmh...i doubt that driving an EUC on for example New York's car crowded streets is totally legal, or?

 

But thing is here in Germany it is nearly the same as in Belgium. That's just how (european/german) our laws for cars and traffic's are designed.

Just to explain it:

If you want to move a vehicle/car/motorbike legal in Germany you must have a number plate and automaticly included in this number plate is a insurance for the vehicle.(vehicle liability insurance)

Thats the main Point: If you move something in traffic...it has to be insured, so that if something happens a insurance pays for damage and a possible victim always will be paid even if the "causer" is totally broken...

If you are driving without insurance/plate, your are doing an criminal offense(not only a warning/fine)...and thats where the law get's us EUC users, because that is a rule for EVERYTHING which has a Motor and what is faster than 6kmh(Walking), (the only exceptions are bicycles and pedal assisting electro bycycles(but not pure e-bikes)).

They dont want something on the streets/in traffice which can cause main accidents and damage/costs without securing the responsibility.

So we Need a number plate(with insurance).....and to make the Story  short: It is hard to get the plate/papers, as our vehicles are not (yet) autorized...... (but i have them nonetheless )

 

And i guess for an american this is all hard to understand, that we have this "vehicle liability insurance" and that it is obligatory and a must and that you can not do what you want on the streets.........nearly the same as we all have an obligatory health insurance ;-)

On the other Hand no european/german can understand the "health care" Problems in the USA...Like: what? a "civilized" Country without obligatory health care?

Americans are also required to have liability insurance for motor vehicles. But bicycles, electric bicycles, skateboards, electric skateboards, Segways, etc. are not considered motor vehicles here. People would laugh at the thought.

And yes, bicycles, electric skateboards, etc. are allowed on New York City streets. California too. I can ride my EUC with impunity on any non-highway road (a highway here is considered a road with limited access and a minimum speed limit of 72km/h). Ironically, the only places that we may be told to leave are city sidewalks. Some locations would rather have us be among cars than among pedestrians. I'm sure someone will point to exceptions, but the vast majority of America is a free-zone for non-motorized vehicles (cars, motorcycles, etc.).

I won't get into the health care debate other than to say that I prefer the barbarian approach - no forced health care 

[US69]

17 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Americans are also required to have liability insurance for motor vehicles. But bicycles, electric bicycles, skateboards, electric skateboards, Segways, etc. are not considered motor vehicles here. People would laugh at the thought.

And yes, bicycles, electric skateboards, etc. are allowed on New York City streets. California too. I can ride my EUC with impunity on any non-highway road (a highway here is considered a road with limited access and a minimum speed limit of 72km/h). Ironically, the only places that we may be told to leave are city sidewalks. Some locations would rather have us be among cars than among pedestrians. I'm sure someone will point to exceptions, but the vast majority of America is a free-zone for non-motorized vehicles (cars, motorcycles, etc.).

I won't get into the health care debate other than to say that I prefer the barbarian approach - no forced health care 

I really dont want to go in to tooo deep discussion, also...

While i can understand that some things are left out of this insurance Thing, as bicycles here in Germany/Europe are also "free", i also understand the Approach of the goverment, that on streets/traffic some regulations are needed, and that NOT everybody can do what he wants ;-) And where is the difference in causing a multi Million Dollar traffic Crash with a bicycle/Euc and causing it with a car???

So, while i would call myself also a...

32 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

liberty focused guy

...this liberty goes as Long as something is involved where i myself can not handle the outcome anymore...

I would say my liberty or barbarian view Ends exaclty in that momemt when

-  as em1barns example said a Skateboarder/EUC User/bicycle crashes into my doughter/son, which driver is NOT insured and a broken individual and leaves all damage/costs to yourself

- or for no forced health care when you with no fault get that ill, that you wish you would have one...

So some aspects of "forced" insurance are not bad to have :-)

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Americans are also required to have liability insurance for motor vehicles. But bicycles, electric bicycles, skateboards, electric skateboards, Segways, etc. are not considered motor vehicles here. People would laugh at the thought.

Over here everyhing that can move with an "engine" (be it gasoline or electric) and that can go faster than a certain speed without user assistance is considered a "motor vehicle". That's why you cannot simply ride an e-bike that goes up to 45km/h and be considered a normal cyclist.

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

- or for no forced health care when you with no fault get that ill, that you wish you would have one...

So some aspects of "forced" insurance are not bad to have :-)

Slippery slope there  I had some discussions with Americans about this and their view is completely opposite to what we Europeans think "is normal". I remember talking to a guy who considered it ridiculous that he had to pay insurance so his wife would pay less when giving birth, as he will never give birth in his life. They just see things differently. This really is not a subject to be discussed on a forum. There are so many nuances in that debate that you need to do this IRL or it will quickly spiral out of control imo.

Then again, mandatory or non mandatory insurance. The main problem in the US isn't insurance as such, but the ridiculous cost of health care, paid through insurance or by yourself. Stuff that costs 5€ over here literally costs $50 over there. You should see the prices people pay for a few stitches for instance, and compare that with what it costs in Europe (including the part your mandatory insurance pays). It's outrageous.

[em1barns]

@craio, going back to AG insurance, just taking the standard RC family insurance is good enough. No need for a certificate of conformity, no need to ask for a green card for motorized engine. The only limitation is that the max speed of your EUC should not exceed 45km/h, which still gives a good range of EUC to choose from  .

[US69]

1 hour ago, ir_fuel said:

Slippery slope there  

Sure...with the analogy to health care i just want to make clear that this are completly different views....and explained a bit why we are having legal "issues"....

 

To get back to legal issues EUC related, Speaking for Germany here:

You have to be clear, that if you drive a EUC that you might get into Trouble, can have 2-3 dimensions here:

Driving without insurance

Driving a vehicle thats not allowed/admissioned in public space

Driving without driving license(if you have None)

For the 1st and 3rd i have Solutions(for me), but the second i will always fail...as all EUC are missing a COC or equal papers...