Technology & Design Improvement Possibilities

[sanman]

In what ways could the designs of most EUCs be usefully improved?

When I look at most EUCs, I see the need for stronger materials to make them more rugged. People seem to at least occasionally be falling down along with their machines, which can cause abrasion.
Polycarbonate & ABS may have impact resistance strength, but they're not as abrasion resistant. Aluminum is a rugged lightweight material that's both hard and structurally rigid. It's also generally cheaper than the stronger & lighter Magnesium alloy which IPS used in its IPS i5.
I used to work for DuPont, which invented polymers like Nylon, Kevlar and Surlyn. Kevlar aramid fiber is known for its high tensile strength and can even be used to strengthen plastics and rubber. Meanwhile Surlyn (Ethylene Methacrylic Acid) coating is known for its hardness & abrasion resistance - it's even used on golfballs and floor tiles, which take a lot of scuffing.

Suspension/damping would be a good way to make the ride more comfortable, and adjust to different terrain types. Pneumatic suspension could be the cheapest and could be suitable for the lighter weight of a single passenger (hydraulics could potentially leak).
I remember Bose, the speaker company, famously invented an advanced suspension system: 

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/technology/a14665/why-car-suspensions-are-better-than-ever/

The Bose suspension system is even capable of jumping over small obstacles. It uses a Linear Electromagnetic Motor. There are also other technologies like Magnetic Damping. A small vehicle like the EUC is very senstive to bumpiness compared to a car, so a good suspension system could make far more difference in ride comfort as compared to any benefits for a car. So these ideas might sound very pie-in-the-sky, but I think they're worth trying, even if only as an experiment.
The average electric razor has more technology in it than any EUC does - and smartphones leave EUCs in the dust when it comes to cutting-edge electronics. If the EUC is going to catch on the way smartphones and electric razors have, then it has to catch up in design sophistication, particularly in electronics.

Regenerative braking could be useful to recover energy, particularly if there's a lot of stopping and starting, as can occur in a congested (eg. urban) environment. The simplest/cheapest way is to use the motor as a dynamo. Note that some regenerative braking designs use Flywheels - rotating discs whose mass can be used to store energy - and they can also be used for Gyro-stabilization to keep something from tipping over (like an EUC). Imagine if the pair of foot pedestals were replaced with a horizontal rotating disc. In order for the gyroscopic flywheel to be as effective as possible at gyro-stabilization, it would have to be as close as possible to the axis of rotation, which is the bottom of the tire - the closest thing to that is the plane in which the unfolded foot pedals lie. So that would be the best place to put a rotating flywheel disc, imho. (Obviously it would be inside a casing/housing of similar shape, and that's what your feet would be standing on). This design looks uniquely suited for such a horizontal flywheel.

 

What other improvements could be made in EUC design and technology?

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I think they are perfect the way they are.  No improvements needed.  

 

 

 

 

Okay okay before you think this guy has something wrong upstairs , I think there's a ton of threads with all the improvement wishes, dreams, and prayers about what we hope future designs will incorporate.  There's just so many.  First of all maybe having high speed wheels that don't want to suddenly kill us when we accidentally zoom up to the terminal velocity would be nice.  Improved wiring that doesn't melt, sturdier vibration and waterproof designs for connectors and control boards along with reliable and quiet motors are needed.  

A smartly designed shock dampening suspension would be oh so good on the feet for those of use riding rougher roads with lots of bumps.  I think a gyro balance assist likely is in the future, but I won't hold my breath.  Motorcycle grade front headlights would be nice along with impact / scratch resistant shells or easily replaceable covers would be ideal.  Higher tech batteries that are lighter with more capacity is always high on the list.  Greater climbing power and electronics redundancy are two other things.  What else what else?  

[ir_fuel]

Gyro balance assist is an interesting one. You could have a flywheel that spins with a speed that's inversely proportional to the speed of the euc, so it would stay upright at standstill but would reduce its influence while riding, since you have the stability from the rotating wheel and don't want a flywheel to make turning more difficult.

But there is of course the issue of packaging + what weight does the flywheel need to be in order to be effective + what's the extra battery drain?

[sanman]

2 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Gyro balance assist is an interesting one. You could have a flywheel that spins with a speed that's inversely proportional to the speed of the euc, so it would stay upright at standstill but would reduce its influence while riding, since you have the stability from the rotating wheel and don't want a flywheel to make turning more difficult.

But there is of course the issue of packaging + what weight does the flywheel need to be in order to be effective + what's the extra battery drain?

Yes, this inversely proportional spin idea is naturally congruent with the whole concept of regenerative braking, since when you slow down, the flywheel would be absorbing kinetic energy by rotating faster, which would increase the gyrostabilization to keep you upright. Likewise, as you accelerate from a standstill, the flywheel's stored rotational energy would be used to accelerate you.

So essentially, you've got 2 major wheels here - one in the vertical plane (tire) and the other in the horizontal plane (flywheel) - which are trading energy between each other as you start up and slow down.

[Keith]

9 hours ago, sanman said:

Regenerative braking could be useful to recover energy,

Errr. Every single electric unicycle on the market uses regenerative braking - they absolutely have to - the braking energy has to go somewhere and the only sink you have for that energy is the battery . There is plenty of discussion on this already on this site, particularly with respect to what happens when the battery is full.

It is also amusing that you chose to use a video of an EUC that failed to ever be launched ( although there is a much better video of it with a really beautiful girl riding - @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  Would have given you glowing reputations if you had used that one!) 

 

Mechanical gyros do show some promise as can be seen in both these threads below, but the bottom line is that significant mass is needed which would make the wheels both heavier and more bulky, both issues you absolutely do not want to see in an electric unicycle. As I understand it, it was the bulky combined battery and foot plates plus the reliability and wear (dirt ingress) problems of the large bearing used that made the Ring Unicycle a non-starter. There is also a significant question over how badly any sort of left/right gyro stabilisation would prevent the user leaning into a turn. It is interesting that most footage of the Lit motorcycle shows it going in a straight line.

 

[Chris Westland]

Aleksander Polutnik was looking at a 2nd gyro for stabilization for a one-wheeler (The Enicycle)  http://www.enicycle.com/what.html which he pretty much open-sourced in 2006.  I think the extra weight, complexity and cost are big impediments.  

The current format of a rigid axle, single motor and low pedals has the advantage of accurate dynamic feedback to the user.  We naturally use our feet to walk in a tightly managed continual forward falling ... we are constantly monitoring our position as we move.  The EUC allows us to do that, in a slightly different way (thus the learning curve).   If you start adding suspension, extra gyro stabilization, sideways motion and numerous other "improvements" I think you will make the feedback very confusing to the user. 

 

[sanman]

2 hours ago, Keith said:

Errr. Every single electric unicycle on the market uses regenerative braking - they absolutely have to - the braking energy has to go somewhere and the only sink you have for that energy is the battery . There is plenty of discussion on this already on this site, particularly with respect to what happens when the battery is full.

It is also amusing that you chose to use a video of an EUC that failed to ever be launched ( although there is a much better video of it with a really beautiful girl riding - @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  Would have given you glowing reputations if you had used that one!) 

 

Mechanical gyros do show some promise as can be seen in both these threads below, but the bottom line is that significant mass is needed which would make the wheels both heavier and more bulky, both issues you absolutely do not want to see in an electric unicycle. As I understand it, it was the bulky combined battery and foot plates plus the reliability and wear (dirt ingress) problems of the large bearing used that made the Ring Unicycle a non-starter. There is also a significant question over how badly any sort of left/right gyro stabilisation would prevent the user leaning into a turn. It is interesting that most footage of the Lit motorcycle shows it going in a straight line.

 

Okay, fair enough - I'm now realizing that most have the regen braking, as I read more - but the horizontal flywheel approach seems unique and untried.

Regarding the weight of a flywheel making it prohibitive - most of the mass of an EUC is in the hub-motor, which is part of the tire-wheel. Suppose you switch the hub-motor over into the horizontal flywheel instead? Then when you power-on, the motor will spin up the flywheel so that the machine is standing upright, due to gyrostabilization, even while standing still. You then step onto the machine, and lean forward to start moving, and at that moment the flywheel will start dumping its stored energy into the tire-wheel (you'll need some gearing for that). As the flywheel slows down, the tire is speeding up, and you're trading gyrostabilization from the flywheel for gyrostabilization from the tire-wheel.

While you're at a standstill, the flywheel's hubmotor is spinning at maximum rpm. When your EUC is traveling at maximum velocity, the flywheel is barely spinning at all, and the hubmotor is barely working. When you're traveling at mid-range velocity, the flywheel is spinning at a mid-range rpm and the hubmotor is working moderately (etc, etc - a sliding scale reflecting the tradeoff between tire rpm and flywheel rpm)

Then there's no danger of a motor abruptly cutting out at maximum velocity, because the motor isn't working hard at max travel velocity. The motor is working hardest when the EUC is at a standstill, and it's putting all its effort into the stationary gyrostabilization -- if your motor cuts out while you're stationary, it's not really such a big deal.

[sanman]

13 minutes ago, sanman said:

The motor is working hardest when the EUC is at a standstill, and it's putting all its effort into the stationary gyrostabilization -- if your motor cuts out while you're stationary, it's not really such a big deal.

Actually, let me correct that - the motor is working hardest when it's accelerating the flywheel -- energy which can be transferred into the tirewheel to accelerate further while traveling. But when the flywheel reaches a peak rpm, then the motor isn't doing much of anything. When you start accelerating, the flywheel starts slowing down, and the motor's work output depends on how much leaning you're doing, because that's telling it how much more acceleration you want.

 

[Keith]

2 hours ago, Chris Westland said:

Aleksander Polutnik was looking at a 2nd gyro for stabilization for a one-wheeler (The Enicycle)  http://www.enicycle.com/what.html which he pretty much open-sourced in 2006.  I think the extra weight, complexity and cost are big impediments.

Wow, so the first generation one, in 2006 was MEMs gyro electronic stabilisation, just like current Electric Unicycles. And isn't that something like 5 years before Shane Chen supposedly "invented" the electric Unicycle!

2 hours ago, Chris Westland said:

If you start adding suspension, extra gyro stabilization, sideways motion and numerous other "improvements" I think you will make the feedback very confusing to the user. 

I think so too ?

[HermanTheGerman]

15 hours ago, sanman said:

Suspension/damping would be a good way to make the ride more comfortable, and adjust to different terrain types. Pneumatic suspension could be the cheapest and could be suitable for the lighter weight of a single passenger (hydraulics could potentially leak).

I already often thought about that. This could be really very, very useful, of course especially if one often rides offroad like I do.

I heavily await the first wheel with a suspension (for bicycles we had to wait more than 100 years to get this, I hope for EUCs it comes earlier ).

15 hours ago, sanman said:

Regenerative braking could be useful to recover energy, particularly if there's a lot of stopping and starting, as can occur in a congested (eg. urban) environment. The simplest/cheapest way is to use the motor as a dynamo.

This is already the case. At least in my KS16 the battery is charged when I ride downhill. Of course the efficiency of recharging could be enhanced, but this will happen in future models, I'm quite sure.

[Chris Westland]

2 hours ago, Keith said:

Wow, so the first generation one, in 2006 was MEMs gyro electronic stabilisation, just like current Electric Unicycles. And isn't that something like 5 years before Shane Chen supposedly "invented" the electric Unicycle!

 

What honestly irritates me about Shane Chen is that he stole the technology, and then he takes credit for inventing it.   In 2005 Janick and Marc Simeray invented and filed the patent for an EUC (US8616313 B2) and Focus Design implemented and sold the first EUC in 2008.  Shane Chen did not invent this at all; he licensed the Simeray brothers patent, and then surreptitiously filed his own patent (US8807250 B2) in 2010 which copied their tech (without letting the Simerays know) and somehow managed to get it through the USPTO.  Then he uses it to sue IPS, Inmotion and others into handing over their products to him so he can mark up the price we pay.  What a troll!

 

[sanman]

45 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

I already often thought about that. This could be really very, very useful, of course especially if one often rides offroad like I do.

I heavily await the first wheel with a suspension (for bicycles we had to wait more than 100 years to get this, I hope for EUCs it comes earlier ).

The high-speed off-roading looks really cool - but it seems like the most practical way to do off-roading with EUC would be climbing hill or mountain trails - especially "goat paths" - where even bikes can't easily go. That's a unique capability that other off-road vehicles don't have.

 

45 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

This is already the case. At least in my KS16 the battery is charged when I ride downhill. Of course the efficiency of recharging could be enhanced, but this will happen in future models, I'm quite sure.

Is there any data available on the regenerative efficiency of various EUCs?

[Scatcat]

15 minutes ago, sanman said:

The high-speed off-roading looks really cool - but it seems like the most practical way to do off-roading with EUC would be climbing hill or mountain trails - especially "goat paths" - where even bikes can't easily go. That's a unique capability that other off-road vehicles don't have.

 

Is there any data available on the regenerative efficiency of various EUCs?

I'd say the efficiency of the motor feeding current to the batteries is pretty high, but as long as we depend on lithium batteries, the charge they can take is pretty low compared to the current they can hand out.

[LanghamP]

47 minutes ago, Chris Westland said:

What honestly irritates me about Shane Chen is that he stole the technology, and then he takes credit for inventing it.   In 2005 Janick and Marc Simeray invented and filed the patent for an EUC (US8616313 B2) and Focus Design implemented and sold the first EUC in 2008.  Shane Chen did not invent this at all; he licensed the Simeray brothers patent, and then surreptitiously filed his own patent (US8807250 B2) in 2010 which copied their tech (without letting the Simerays know) and somehow managed to get it through the USPTO.  Then he uses it to sue IPS, Inmotion and others into handing over their products to him so he can mark up the price we pay.  What a troll!

 

I did read Chen's patent; as far as I can tell, he removes the seat and has "friction pads" for control. I would not think this is worthy of a patent. To me it's somewhat analogous to removing the roof of a car then patenting the car. Seats are nice to have but not necessary (as can be seen that most EUC riders eventually add a seat even if they don't use it most of the time).

[Slaughthammer]

I recently had this idea, how to make larger tire diameter EUCs perform better. The problem with the larger tires is, that the pedals are to short to apply similar amounts of propulsion/braking force compared to smaller tires. So let's fix that by making the pedals longer, and step further forward on them. Now accelerating is no problem anymore, but what happens, if you need to brake hard? No proper leverage behind the wheel axle is to short due to the standing further forward position. So my idea was to mount a motorized sled on the pedals, that shifts your feet back and forth on them, according to the requested torque, so that no matter how much you lean, your COG will always be somewhat around the middle of your feet. I'm not really sure if this is just a silly idea or if it actually could be made to work and actually be rideable, but I can't think of anything why this shouldn't work. Of course, you would add just another point of failure into the EUC, so that is a disadvantage, however, as long as this apparatus only stops working and won't jerk wildly back and forth a failure would not automatically inflict a fanceplant on the rider.

But generally I am under the impression, that before adding further features to our beloved wheels, the manufacturers should work on reliability an maybe even redundancies for the current technologies...

[Scatcat]

44 minutes ago, Chris Westland said:

What honestly irritates me about Shane Chen is that he stole the technology, and then he takes credit for inventing it.   In 2005 Janick and Marc Simeray invented and filed the patent for an EUC (US8616313 B2) and Focus Design implemented and sold the first EUC in 2008.  Shane Chen did not invent this at all; he licensed the Simeray brothers patent, and then surreptitiously filed his own patent (US8807250 B2) in 2010 which copied their tech (without letting the Simerays know) and somehow managed to get it through the USPTO.  Then he uses it to sue IPS, Inmotion and others into handing over their products to him so he can mark up the price we pay.  What a troll!

 

Isn't that quite often the problem with the patent system? The bar for a new patent if quite often very low, and the competence of the patent officer within the field of the patent is often execrable. So you make some changes, apply for a too broad and general patent, then use that patent to effectively nab the patent space of the old patent. Then you use your patented "invention" to punish those who didn't swindle the original patent holders of their intellectual property.

[Chris Westland]

51 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I did read Chen's patent; as far as I can tell, he removes the seat and has "friction pads" for control. I would not think this is worthy of a patent. To me it's somewhat analogous to removing the roof of a car then patenting the car. Seats are nice to have but not necessary (as can be seen that most EUC riders eventually add a seat even if they don't use it most of the time).

I wonder if IPS and Inmotion could throw in some cheap removable seats and pads and thwart Chen's lawsuit ... just thinking ...

[Catlord17]

The stabilizing gyroscope concept, wouldn't that have to defy the laws pf physics to work?  If I understand this correctly, the stabilizing gyroscope would have to periodically or continuously occupy the same space as the wheel motor at the same time... unless perhaps one such gyroscope on either side would work? Two perpendicular rotating wheels in equilibrium, essentially, if I understand this correctly.  

[Chris Westland]

Aleksander Polutnik put the 2nd gyro under the seat ...

[Slaughthammer]

19 hours ago, sanman said:

 Note that some regenerative braking designs use Flywheels - rotating discs whose mass can be used to store energy - and they can also be used for Gyro-stabilization to keep something from tipping over (like an EUC).

Am I the only one who thinks that this might interfere with steering the EUC? Tip it to the side, and it will turn, put it back upright and it turns back.... doesn't sound like I want to ride it. And just imagine what happens if you dare to reverse it, it would actively knock you off balance.

[Chris Westland]

20 hours ago, sanman said:

Suspension/damping would be a good way to make the ride more comfortable, and adjust to different terrain types. Pneumatic suspension could be the cheapest and could be suitable for the lighter weight of a single passenger (hydraulics could potentially leak).
 

Like this?  ... put a shock absorber and whitewalls, and they'd call you "boss"  

 

Or maybe the Kiwano   https://www.kiwano.co/pages/ko1-electric-scooter

[LanghamP]

42 minutes ago, Slaughthammer said:

Am I the only one who thinks that this might interfere with steering the EUC? Tip it to the side, and it will turn, put it back upright and it turns back.... doesn't sound like I want to ride it. And just imagine what happens if you dare to reverse it, it would actively knock you off balance.

Or remove the front cover of the flywheel and drive through a crowd. We've had attacks by cars, trucks, and planes, why not by unicycles?

I can see the headlines now.

"Terrorists on unicycles mow down Berlin crowd, prosthetic stocks rise while Rebooks plummet!"

[Chris Westland]

52 minutes ago, Slaughthammer said:

Am I the only one who thinks that this might interfere with steering the EUC? Tip it to the side, and it will turn, put it back upright and it turns back.... doesn't sound like I want to ride it. And just imagine what happens if you dare to reverse it, it would actively knock you off balance.

Check out his page @    http://www.enicycle.com/what.html ... he describes the ride ...

 

[Slaughthammer]

4 minutes ago, Chris Westland said:

Check out his page @    http://www.enicycle.com/what.html ... he describes the ride ...

No gyroscopic flywheel in it....

[Chris Westland]

3 minutes ago, Slaughthammer said:

No gyroscopic flywheel in it....

I may be mistaken, but I thought the Enicycle was an implementation of an inertia wheel pendulum -- an EUC with an inertia wheel (the 2nd gyroscope) attached... the inertia wheel doesn't itself stabilize, but provides inputs to help stabilize ...