The fear of falling.

[LanghamP]

I noticed after a couple of high-speed overlean crashes I pretty much cruise at 12.5 miles per hour. Going uphill, 12.5 mph, downhill 12.5, sidewalk 12.5, grass and gravel 12.5, road 12.5. Pretty much everywhere I park it at 12.5 mph. It's the speed where a runoff is scary but doable. 

[Pard]

1 minute ago, LanghamP said:

I noticed after a couple of high-speed overlean crashes I pretty much cruise at 12.5 miles per hour. Going uphill, 12.5 mph, downhill 12.5, sidewalk 12.5, grass and gravel 12.5, road 12.5. Pretty much everywhere I park it at 12.5 mph. It's the speed where a runoff is scary but doable. 

I believe that you are describing the phenomenon of wisdom being born out of experience!

 

[Bob Eisenman]

8 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

I noticed after a couple of high-speed overlean crashes I pretty much cruise at 12.5 miles per hour.

Ouch!!   I often wonder if riding an EUC at high speed is a non-Chinese-origin thought. 'So much better than walking' wrote one EUC rider in response to one of my posts. That the EUC as a faster and easier than walking (after learning)  is a welcome feeling but when the demand for greater speed (to cover longer distances quickly or to compete with traffic?) was made by some riders the device became a natural design for serious injury when things go wrong.

[HermanTheGerman]

Hmm, I trust my wheel at higher speed, therefore I'm nearly always driving in "beeping" mode, around 30 km/h, leading to an average cruising speed between 24 and 27 km/h for longer cruises (15 to 16.7 mph).

But I also always wear a helmet, bicycle gloves and elbow protectors, sometimes during summer also knee protectors. Until now I could thanks God also manage surprising situations, like e.g. a child jumping out between 2 parked cars leading to an emergency brake.

But of course at some time it may happen, like a crash with the bicycle.

I agree the difference between bicycle and  EUC is the higher probability of dangers which you cannot influence, like a problem with the processor or the motherboard, but up to 30 km/h and wearing protection equipment I see that as an acceptable risk.

The below is an extreme sample, normally I'm not cruising at 29 average, but as mentioned mostly between 24 and 27.

[WARPed1701D]

While learning I have set the speed limit on my V8 to 20kph (12.5mph). I've yet to feel any tiltback and have to say what I have done felt too bloody fast. A wise move on your part I think.

"With great power comes great responsibility" Uncle Ben

[kasenutty]

I'm the same, Langham. After my overlean I'm a happy medium speed cruiser. 20-25 kph. Higher and I get scared now.

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Scared of overleans? 2 options:

• Ride slower (Boooooooooooring!)
• Get a >1000W, >1000Wh (6P or more battery pack) wheel and forget overleans are a thing (Better!)

Also, stop deactivating speed warnings on your 14Cs (any wheel, really, but 14Cs seem the overlean wheel of choice here) and then wondering why you just crashed going 30+ km/h

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I noticed after a couple of high-speed overlean crashes I pretty much cruise at 12.5 miles per hour. Going uphill, 12.5 mph, downhill 12.5, sidewalk 12.5, grass and gravel 12.5, road 12.5. Pretty much everywhere I park it at 12.5 mph. It's the speed where a runoff is scary but doable. 

I believe you are finding out why the Ninebot One E+'s maximum safe cruising speed is set at 20 kph.    It's time to downgrade.

[Acturbo]

9 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

Hmm, I trust my wheel at higher speed, therefore I'm nearly always driving in "beeping" mode, around 30 km/h, leading to an average cruising speed between 24 and 27 km/h for longer cruises (15 to 16.7 mph).

But I also always wear a helmet, bicycle gloves and elbow protectors, sometimes during summer also knee protectors. Until now I could thanks God also manage surprising situations, like e.g. a child jumping out between 2 parked cars leading to an emergency brake.

But of course at some time it may happen, like a crash with the bicycle.

I agree the difference between bicycle and  EUC is the higher probability of dangers which you cannot influence, like a problem with the processor or the motherboard, but up to 30 km/h and wearing protection equipment I see that as an acceptable risk.

The below is an extreme sample, normally I'm not cruising at 29 average, but as mentioned mostly between 24 and 27.

I'm with you Herman.  Always pushing the limit and having the EUC yell at me.  Seems we are in the minority.  30 km/h(or just under to stop the incessant beeping) is where I cruise at on clear straight paths.  I tend to be more cautious on terrain I am not familiar with or bumpy untested roads.  

[Jeff_Nelson]

What do you mean by overlean crashes?? I carve pretty sharp turns and never felt like a crash. Or am I misinterpreting the term?

[KalSeth]

20km/h is sooo slow.  On the MCM4 I average about 25 but do short bursts up to 30.  Over that and I start thinking about crash scenarios.

 

  

[Acturbo]

6 minutes ago, KalSeth said:

20km/h is sooo slow.  On the MCM4 I average about 25 but do short bursts up to 30.  Over that and I start thinking about crash scenarios.

 

  

We have the same wheel Kal.  Yours doesn't scream at you when you hit 30 km/h?  I can't get mine to shut up once I hit 30 km/h.  Tried playing with the alarm settings on the app(not that I plan on going much faster than 30 km/h anyways) but would like to be able to stop from it beeping every 2 seconds when I'm on a long straight trip.  

[LanghamP]

Just now, Jeff_Nelson said:

What do you mean by overlean crashes?? I carve pretty sharp turns and never felt like a crash. Or am I misinterpreting the term?

To be precise, I've never overleaned and both high speed crashes were caused by the wheel slowing down, unnoticed by me, when a slope gradually increased. A lack of forward pedal pressure caused my crashes. Excess speed and lack of motor did not cause my accidents. I've noticed I've always had problems with subtle slope increases; the wheel drags behind me and then I'll have an moment.

Worse thing, though, is coming off a slope, the wheel speeds up, you hit tilt-back, arms flail. That feels like death if you're not expecting it. Terrifying.

[litewave]

3 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

I believe you are finding out why the Ninebot One E+'s maximum safe cruising speed is set at 20 kph.    It's time to downgrade.

I think it is rider/wheel-dependent. I don't want to set a bad example for others, but I have nearly 2,000km on my E+ and have no issues riding near 25 when terrain permits.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I've hit about 27 kph according to my Gyrometrics app, but that was going a little too fast downhill.  I think around 30 kph is the motor's cut-off point so there is still some breathing room for my weight class.  The tiltback kind of keeps you below 20-22 kph unless you don't mind riding it.  I find the lower front muscles of my legs get a little annoyed doing that.

[meepmeepmayer]

7 hours ago, Jeff_Nelson said:

What do you mean by overlean crashes?? I carve pretty sharp turns and never felt like a crash. Or am I misinterpreting the term?

Overlean means leaning forward more than the wheel can balance, which automatically leads to you falling forward, on your face Nothing to do with sidewards leaning (like in curves).

Usually happens with combinations of high speeds (because the wheel's torque reserves go down with speed), heavy rider, a sudden obstacle/beginning hill that requires extra balancing power, and weaker wheels. Also more likely with low battery, and smaller batteries (less parallel blocks than a bigger one). So when the wheel runs out of power, or out of battery to provide enough power.

In theory, you can overlean any wheel by going faster and faster, ignoring warning beeps and counteracting the tiltback, until the wheel can't keep up any longer. That's how self-balancing vehicles work by principle, they can't force you to slow down (only tell you to by beeps and tiltback) because slowing down would contradict the self-balancing and would hence crash you. So all the wheels can do is give their best til the bitter end.

But with your msuper V3 ACM, you'd have to overlean it intentionally (ignoring warnings and tiltback), pretty much impossible to do it by accident unless you're going too fast already, and something crazy like a big bump or huge gust of headwind comes up suddenly. That's why fast/strong wheels (>1000W) with big batteries (>1000Wh) are actually safer in this regard: they have higher reserves. Like your wheel

btw, did you ever confirm your msuper ACM safe from that oscillation bug?

[KalSeth]

@Acturbo  After 300km on the wheel I used the Gotway app to turn off Tilt back.  I can't believe the difference!  

I used to be constantly fighting that feature.  I didn't realize how awful it was until I disabled it as a test. Now there is no going back to using it.

Since I no longer have Tilt back I did enable the speed warnings beeps, god they are annoying.  After some further testing I set all three warnings to 32km/h.

The wheel is now near perfect for my use.  I only miss having a trolley handle.

For those mother hens, @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  I am mindful of my speeds and make constant adjustments for terrain and others on the paths.  I slow down to a crawl still for going up and down hills.  I don't think I am pushing the wheel to it's limits so not having it beep and buck are worth going without Nannybot.

To those who still want to hector over supposed safety issue of turning off Tilt back, blame @Marty Backe for giving me the idea.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, KalSeth said:

@Acturbo  After 300km on the wheel I used the Gotway app to turn off Tilt back.  I can't believe the difference!  

I used to be constantly fighting that feature.  I didn't realize how awful it was until I disabled it as a test. Now there is no going back to using it.

Since I no longer have Tilt back I did enable the speed warnings beeps, god they are annoying.  After some further testing I set all three warnings to 32km/h.

The wheel is now near perfect for my use.  I only miss having a trolley handle.

For those mother hens, @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  I am mindful of my speeds and make constant adjustments for terrain and others on the paths.  I slow down to a crawl still for going up and down hills.  I don't think I am pushing the wheel to it's limits so not having it beep and buck are worth going without Nannybot.

To those who still want to hector over supposed safety issue of turning off Tilt back, blame @Marty Backe for giving me the idea.

Welcome to the "no tilt-back" club 

[LanghamP]

On 7/25/2017 at 10:51 AM, Bob Eisenman said:

Ouch!!   I often wonder if riding an EUC at high speed is a non-Chinese-origin thought. 'So much better than walking' wrote one EUC rider in response to one of my posts. That the EUC as a faster and easier than walking (after learning)  is a welcome feeling but when the demand for greater speed (to cover longer distances quickly or to compete with traffic?) was made by some riders the device became a natural design for serious injury when things go wrong.

The EUC slots neatly between walking and bicycling, and I personally treat it as such. It doesn't have the speed of a bicycle and when it does it doesn't have the stability nor safety of a bicycle. In some ways it is the best of walking and bicycling. Need to go faster than walking? Get on it! Need to cross terrain you can't on a bicycle (indoors, steps, rough paths)? No problem! Just pick it up!

When I need to get somewhere and don't want to dick around, I reach for my V5F+. Compact, trigger handle, great cover, small, fast enough. I've even removed the handle so it's even more compact. Remember, 13mph is faster than any of us can jog.

I do admit my MSuper is more akin to a motorcycle. At least the feel though not the speed. One takes the MSuper out for a Sunday ride but it's my KS14C and V5F that gets the love.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

18 hours ago, KalSeth said:

20km/h is sooo slow.  On the MCM4 I average about 25 but do short bursts up to 30.  Over that and I start thinking about crash scenarios.  

 

2 hours ago, KalSeth said:

 

For those mother hens, @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  I am mindful of my speeds and make constant adjustments for terrain and others on the paths.  I slow down to a crawl still for going up and down hills.  I don't think I am pushing the wheel to it's limits so not having it beep and buck are worth going without Nannybot.

  <secretly installs Gotway app, writes special one press code to stealthily switch MCM4 settings to tiltback at 18 kph for the win>  Still have to find a time to go for a joint race ride.    I'd just be careful with some Gotways.  You never know how secure these wheels are against unscrupulous tiltback hacking.  

[Acturbo]

8 hours ago, KalSeth said:

@Acturbo  After 300km on the wheel I used the Gotway app to turn off Tilt back.  I can't believe the difference!  

I used to be constantly fighting that feature.  I didn't realize how awful it was until I disabled it as a test. Now there is no going back to using it.

Since I no longer have Tilt back I did enable the speed warnings beeps, god they are annoying.  After some further testing I set all three warnings to 32km/h.

The wheel is now near perfect for my use.  I only miss having a trolley handle.

For those mother hens, @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  I am mindful of my speeds and make constant adjustments for terrain and others on the paths.  I slow down to a crawl still for going up and down hills.  I don't think I am pushing the wheel to it's limits so not having it beep and buck are worth going without Nannybot.

To those who still want to hector over supposed safety issue of turning off Tilt back, blame @Marty Backe for giving me the idea.

I also creep to no faster than I can jog when going uphill.  I'd rather not risk the board cutting out because it overheats and leave me face down on the hill(a limitation I was unaware of until after I bought the wheel).  Everywhere else I seem to be pushing the limits whether by accident or not, I never really realize how fast I'm going unless I have one of the apps on in front of my face.  15 MPH was cool for a short time and now I crave more speed and follow the same pattern when riding.  Speed up and cruise, wait for beeping sound, hear beep, slow down, cruise some more at what I think is a slower speed, hear beep slow down again, and so on and so forth................

[Acturbo]

9 hours ago, KalSeth said:

@Acturbo  After 300km on the wheel I used the Gotway app to turn off Tilt back.  I can't believe the difference!  

I used to be constantly fighting that feature.  I didn't realize how awful it was until I disabled it as a test. Now there is no going back to using it.

Since I no longer have Tilt back I did enable the speed warnings beeps, god they are annoying.  After some further testing I set all three warnings to 32km/h.

The wheel is now near perfect for my use.  I only miss having a trolley handle.

For those mother hens, @Hunka Hunka Burning Love  I am mindful of my speeds and make constant adjustments for terrain and others on the paths.  I slow down to a crawl still for going up and down hills.  I don't think I am pushing the wheel to it's limits so not having it beep and buck are worth going without Nannybot.

To those who still want to hector over supposed safety issue of turning off Tilt back, blame @Marty Backe for giving me the idea.

Kal, 

How did you change your warnings?  In the Gotway app my only selections are default, disable first alarm, disable second alarm.  Where do you go to change the speed at which the alarm goes off? Am I using an old version of the app or something?

Thanks

[KalSeth]

@Acturbo

I just opened Gotway app to check.  I don't have many settings.  

Ride Mode: Powerful

Tiltback speed: Off

Audio Alarm speed >32km/h

Speed Divider??? Set to Default 1.  People say Gotway misreports the true speed so this looks like the something to adjust to actual?

Vibration Alarm

Enable: I think this is supposed to vibrate phone?  I had these set to 32 for all three but just turned them off as I never feel any vibrations.

Looking up the App Info it says I am using version 1.0.2-beta, App size is 2.25MB

 

[Scatcat]

That "crawl up the hill" thingie... Isn't it less than ideal to go slow uphill?

When I look at amp-draw in my app, it seems to spike if I crawl uphill, but stay more reasonable if I just continue as if I was on flat ground. As the incline starts, I will of course slow down a bit naturally, but I don't slow down more than that on purpose. Neither do I try to push it to keep the speed up, at least not more than I would to accelerate moderately on flat ground.

If I come in too slow, I feel I have a tendency to push it harder, maybe that has something to do with the amp-draw? While coming in at normal speed, it just seems effortless.

Well, except for one hill in the woods here, which is somewhere around 35-40°, that is NOT an effortless uphill ride, whatever speed I start out with...  

[KalSeth]

Crawling up hills for me are the really steep grades.  

A lot of it is for safety, usually hills are the place I catch up to walkers/hikers/bikers so I want to make sure to share the trail being a polite Canadian.

It is a good question on amp draw.  I need to start riding with the app open.