Rehab1 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I went for a very short ride yesterday to test out my modified ACM 1600 and the temperature Data Logger. The ACM required recalibration first but other than that it performed flawlessly. The area where I tested it does not have any hills which was fine for the first run. I also did not bring it up to full speed. After riding the Inmotion V5F+ and V8 for so long I need to become better acquainted with my new wheel. Below is a sampling of the temperature data gathered yesterday. The blue line represents the temperature of the 3 motor wires exiting the axle shaft and the black line represents one of the 3 bullet connector motor wires. As you can see on the graph the blue line (axle wires) is climbing on the gragh more rapidly than the black bullet connector line. When I arrived at my destination around 5:25 pm the blue line begins to decend on the graph. Now I just need some serious hill climbing and faster speeds for more advanced data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Is this what you expected? I thought the bullet connector was supposed to be the hot spot, due to the additional resistance. It's also interesting that the bullet connector continues to heat up after you stop - or am I reading it wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 5 hours ago, Rehab1 said: ... As you can see on the graph the blue line (axle wires) is climbing on the gragh more rapidly than the black bullet connector line. When I arrived at my destination around 5:25 pm the blue line begins to decend on the graph. Seems like you've choosen the right connector and did an excellent job with soldering the wires to it! Quote Now I just need some serious hill climbing and faster speeds for more advanced data. Maybe going up the same hill with different speeds and letting then everything cool back to the "original" temperature before each ride! Would give some interesting numbers. Best combined with some wheellog/9bmetrics data logged for each ride 2 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: Is this what you expected? I thought the bullet connector was supposed to be the hot spot, due to the additional resistance. It's also interesting that the bullet connector continues to heat up after you stop - or am I reading it wrong? Since the bullet connector was one of the coolest parts in the chamber everything else kept heating it up, while the other parts lost temperature? could also be, that the bullet connector was as good, that it did not heat up itself but was only heated by the mosfets and other wires - so the ambient temp graph of the morherboard would be interesting too. Could be that it coresponds with the the axle temp measurements? Is there a fan inside the acm which distributes the hot air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 8 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: Is this what you expected? I thought the bullet connector was supposed to be the hot spot, due to the additional resistance. It's also interesting that the bullet connector continues to heat up after you stop - or am I reading it wrong? No. I thought the bullet connector would have the high temperature reading but this data was only based on a short 15 minute ride, half speed and level terrain. Now I just need to seek out a location that simulates the hills and valleys like @Marty Backe 's backyard. 5 hours ago, Chriull said: Seems like you've choosen the right connector and did an excellent job with soldering the wires to it! The motor wires are not soldered to the probe. The probe was placed next to the bullet connector. 5 hours ago, Chriull said: Maybe going up the same hill with different speeds and letting then everything cool back to the "original" temperature before each ride! Would give some interesting numbers. Best combined with some wheellog/9bmetrics data logged for each ride Yes that is a perfect plan along with gathering data from the wheellog/9bmetrics. The combination of data would offer some strong quantifiable evidence on the temperature fluctuations occurring during speed and elevation changes. 5 hours ago, Chriull said: Since the bullet connector was one of the coolest parts in the chamber everything else kept heating it up, while the other parts lost temperature? could also be, that the bullet connector was as good, that it did not heat up itself but was only heated by the mosfets and other wires - so the ambient temp graph of the morherboard would be interesting too. Could be that it coresponds with the the axle temp measurements? Is there a fan inside the acm which distributes the hot air? Unfortunately there is not enough data to make any assumptions at this point. I have modified the ACM with an exhaust fan and air intake vents. The fan can be manually turned on and off. At the time of the data gathering the fan was off. That will be another upcoming research study to see how effective the exhaust fan is for dispersing heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Just saw your post. Very interesting. I'm worried to see that the axle area is hotter, but like you say, you're really not running it full bore yet. We do have some evidence that the wires do not get excessively hot near the axle. The engineer in me loves to see data like this Hopefully you're going to be able to find a hill that can stress the wheel to near breaking. If the Gotway telemetry isn't reporting temps in the 70's than you're probably not pushing it hard enough. Hey, here's a semi-serious suggestion. Tie a rope around your waist and attach it to your car (your truck is probably too heavy). Put the car in neutral (best have someone behind the steering wheel when you do this) and then try pulling the car. If you can get the car moving that will probably simulate a nice long steep hill. Please video it for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share Posted August 12, 2017 Finally I have some evidence based quantifiable data as I took my Gotway ACM 1600 to the auto proving grounds yesterday where I ascended and descended both 20 % and 30% grade hills for approximately 9 minutes. The Bluetooth Temperature Data Logger performed flawlessly and gathered some interesting data. Below is a video of the entire ride followed by a graph depicting the temperature data that was gathered. My drone failed miserably yesterday as it decided to stop following me numerous times. I added a shot clip at the end video. Sorry @Marty Backe. The wires exiting the axle (blue line) clearly had a greater temperature rise of over 10 degrees C. The blue line represents the probe placed inside the motor/hall sensor wire bundle exiting the axle and the black line represents a reading of one probe embedded directly next to one of the motor wire's (green wire) bullet connectors. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in temperature if a probe was insert next to the yellow and blue motor wires as @meepmeepmayer's yellow wire heated up enough to melt the heat sleeve a few days ago. For those members who may not have followed my ACM 1600 mods here is a video showing the installation of temperature probes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: ... Sorry @Marty Backe. The wires exiting the axle (blue line) clearly had a greater temperature rise of over 10 degrees C. ... Seems that you have done a great job with the bullet connectors! Temperature seems fine for this 9 minutes load test - but there is no real settling to be seen. Time ?is? limited for such loads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share Posted August 12, 2017 Many thanks! I believe if I continued pushing the envelope the temperature would continue to rise. I still do not have a good sense on the cooling fan's effectiveness.That will be my next test with the temp logger where I plan to ride up and down both hills for a specific number of times with the fan on, let the wheel cool down, and then perform the same number of runs with the fan off. Should I perform a temperature test the other 2 motor wires as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 8 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: Should I perform a temperature test the other 2 motor wires as well? Would be a test of the cennector/soldering resistance - if they are all well done or one has some "problems" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 3 hours ago, Rehab1 said: It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in temperature if a probe was insert next to the yellow and blue motor wires as @meepmeepmayer's yellow wire heated up enough to melt the heat sleeve a few days ago. Once again, thanks for the great work! My yellow wire is ok, the connector on it showed some heat damage. Pretty sure it's just the (worst of the 3) connector itself, not the wire. Also makes sense that your redone connectors are cooler than the stock wires. You could hardly have used bigger ones (an idea a certain manufacturer should learn from) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 The fact that you only got ~50° and my heat sleeve has 95° tolerance (as you measured) and still got damaged tells me the hills tests with breaks in between (turning on the flat part and the top/downhills parts) aren't too comparable to a real constant incline without breaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Did you log the wheel itself (Wheellog or so)? I'd be interested in the power values and to compare with my mountain logs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Rehab1 said: Finally I have some evidence based quantifiable data as I took my Gotway ACM 1600 to the auto proving grounds yesterday where I ascended and descended both 20 % and 30% grade hills for approximately 9 minutes. The Bluetooth Temperature Data Logger performed flawlessly and gathered some interesting data. Below is a video of the entire ride followed by a graph depicting the temperature data that was gathered. My drone failed miserably yesterday as it decided to stop following me numerous times. I added a shot clip at the end video. Sorry @Marty Backe. The wires exiting the axle (blue line) clearly had a greater temperature rise of over 10 degrees C. The blue line represents the probe placed inside the motor/hall sensor wire bundle exiting the axle and the black line represents a reading of one probe embedded directly next to one of the motor wire's (green wire) bullet connectors. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in temperature if a probe was insert next to the yellow and blue motor wires as @meepmeepmayer's yellow wire heated up enough to melt the heat sleeve a few days ago. For those members who may not have followed my ACM 1600 mods here is a video showing the installation of temperature probes. I lose my bet I guess This is disconcerting, but also a little confusing. When my motor wires melted, the melting occurred within an inch or so of the connectors. Yet there was no sign of heat stress as the wires got closer to the axle. Hmmmm Maybe since you have super-duper connectors now, they no longer represent a hot spot in the wiring. So your data may provide that beefier connectors are all that's needed to prevent cabling melt downs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share Posted August 12, 2017 12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I lose my bet I guess This is disconcerting, but also a little confusing. When my motor wires melted, the melting occurred within an inch or so of the connectors. Yet there was no sign of heat stress as the wires got closer to the axle. Hmmmm Maybe since you have super-duper connectors now, they no longer represent a hot spot in the wiring. So your data may provide that beefier connectors are all that's needed to prevent cabling melt downs It is interesting. I am not sure how much the fan contributed to lowering the temperature inside. I shut off the fan during the last few minutes of the ride. That will be my next test. Were you able to ascertain which one of your three motor wires melted first? We know @meepmeepmayer melted the yellow wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Rehab1 said: Finally I have some evidence based quantifiable data as I took my Gotway ACM 1600 to the auto proving grounds yesterday where I ascended and descended both 20 % and 30% grade hills for approximately 9 minutes. The Bluetooth Temperature Data Logger performed flawlessly and gathered some interesting data. Below is a video of the entire ride followed by a graph depicting the temperature data that was gathered. My drone failed miserably yesterday as it decided to stop following me numerous times. I added a shot clip at the end video. Sorry @Marty Backe. The wires exiting the axle (blue line) clearly had a greater temperature rise of over 10 degrees C. The blue line represents the probe placed inside the motor/hall sensor wire bundle exiting the axle and the black line represents a reading of one probe embedded directly next to one of the motor wire's (green wire) bullet connectors. It would be interesting to see if there is a difference in temperature if a probe was insert next to the yellow and blue motor wires as @meepmeepmayer's yellow wire heated up enough to melt the heat sleeve a few days ago. For those members who may not have followed my ACM 1600 mods here is a video showing the installation of temperature probe Good video btw. Always interesting how the hills don't seem that steep from the camera, but those side views of the hill really show how 30% is very steep (you were saying 'degrees' in the video, which are different of course). When I burned up my ACM it was on a ~30% incline, for probably a minute. Now you can relate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: It is interesting. I am not sure how much the fan contributed to lowering the temperature inside. I shut off the fan during the last few minutes of the ride. That will be my next test. Were you able to ascertain which one of your three motor wires melted first? We know @meepmeepmayer melted the yellow wire. I did much pay attention, but clearly two melted together and from my perspective (memory) they looked like they both melted. @meepmeepmayer had the advantage that the wires weren't touching. Once they touch any melt together it's difficult to know which cable was doing the melting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share Posted August 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Marty Backe said: Good video btw. Always interesting how the hills don't seem that steep from the camera, but those side views of the hill really show how 30% is very steep (you were saying 'degrees' in the video, which are different of course). When I burned up my ACM it was on a ~30% incline, for probably a minute. Now you can relate Yes I met to say %. I just became familiar with the difference between degrees and percentages for hill grades.Still have a mind block....probably forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Rehab1 said: My drone failed miserably yesterday as it decided to stop following me numerous times. I added a shot clip at the end video. Great aerial video at the end, the drone was following perfectly and even turned around when you did then just stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: I lose my bet I guess This is disconcerting, but also a little confusing. When my motor wires melted, the melting occurred within an inch or so of the connectors. Yet there was no sign of heat stress as the wires got closer to the axle. Hmmmm I really believe the cable insulation melting has NOTHING to do with any connectors. When there were the older (non-crimped) connectors, these failed relatively shortly before the (old 16AWG) cabling (we know because @zlymex showed a case where the old connectors failed but there was clear heat damage on the fat motor sleeve so it was close to the cables failing too). But other than that, I don't think there's any connection (no pun intended). My latest little damage gives me the suspicion that the cables or connectors TOUCHING anything (the shell's side pad e.g.) might be an influence - even a little "pressure spot" might make a difference. Same for cables touching each other etc. And of course random weak spots with higher resistance (bends) or simple production/assembly inhomogenities. I'm going to carefully close my wheel and see there's as little contact between the cables and the shell as possible (not cramming the cables into place with the closing side pad, but fixating them beforehand). 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Maybe since you have super-duper connectors now, they no longer represent a hot spot in the wiring. So your data may provide that beefier connectors are all that's needed to prevent cabling melt downs Beefier connectors will prevent connector meltdowns. Cables are still vulnerable and the weakest spot then. I would not know how better connectors could influence what happens to the cables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 12, 2017 Share Posted August 12, 2017 Just to clarify, my latest thing is NOT AT ALL cable-related, but one of the connectors has some minor heat damage, that's all. If there's a reason besides chance (both for only one connector being damaged, and the connector being damaged instead of any cables), I'm saying it's because this (and only this) connector was against the side pad (with the white sleeve thing between them for half the contact area). The other two connectors were hanging freely (*insert Hunka style joke here*). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted August 12, 2017 Author Share Posted August 12, 2017 3 hours ago, steve454 said: Great aerial video at the end, the drone was following perfectly and even turned around when you did then just stopped. Unfortunately out of 50 minutes of aerial footage that is the best I could use. Most of the footage is me attempting to convince Mavic to follow me. I should put a bloopers video together. 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: My latest little damage gives me the suspicion that the cables or connectors TOUCHING anything (the shell's side pad e.g.) might be an influence - even a little "pressure spot" might make a difference. Same for cables touching each other etc. And of course random weak spots with higher resistance (bends) or simple production/assembly inhomogenities. I'm going to carefully close my wheel and see there's as little contact between the cables and the shell as possible (not cramming the cables into place with the closing side pad, but fixating them beforehand). Given that scenario I would also be worried about the motor wires pulled through the narrow axle shaft. I remember the rough surface at both ends of the shaft that sliced my silicone wire insulation on my first attempt pulling the new wires through the shaft. Unless someone tears apart one of new 14 awg motors and inspects the ends of the shaft we will never know if GW removed the sharp edges in those regions. I agree... try and separate the wires as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted August 13, 2017 Share Posted August 13, 2017 My (16 AWG wires) motor cable has a metal spiral around it where it comes out of the axle. A plastic lip (not the axle) actually cut into the plastic around it there (due to vibration I guess), but the spiral stopped it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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