Hatchet Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Not if someone dies god forbid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodman Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Hatchet said: How much you guys think it would cost Gotway to buy a used treadmill and some rolled up newspapers to duct tape to the belt to simulate bumps? Now that's QA! There are so many hills around Shenzhen, all they need to do is take a few out for some serious test and have better results don't just go around the factory or up and down ramps. Don't release any wheels after implementing changes until they run a few wheels for full tests up to at least 500km, with the cheap labour cost it shouldn't take more than a week to complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Eisenman Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Good luck great rider. Get well. I know that Ninebot has an input for speeding up the wheel when making long radius speedy turns. You can feel the wheel pressing against the shin to keep the rider upright. Stiffness settings make the effect more or less pronounced. It's something to do with applying force to the tangent to the curve to keep the rider-euc from spiraling inwards. Maybe the EUC wobble you describe is a pulsating (rather than steady) input under such conditions. The terrible tumble sort of follows a street to curb transition too. Best wishes, Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodman Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Shabba said: Damn sorry Marty, that has to be one of the worse feeling in the world, I have the same wheel, the black and white matte version, the same day I got it I almost fell because I got chased by a bit bull and after I got away all I could think about was my brand new wheel being damaged from falling, gotway really have to get on this ASAP, in one of the comments someone said they don't know how gotway is gonna recover from this, the crazy thing is they will, all they have to do is bring out wheels with bigger motors, bigger batteries and flashy colors and consumers are right back on board, hope your msuper 1600 is back on its feet before the summer is over, sorry buddy It won't be so easy for Gotway to get away with it this time around, all the problems before were mainly due to having the best and fastest wheels on the market first. Yes there were problems with cables not soldered on properly, bad connectors used but we could all see they tried and corrected the problem with each new batch. The problem this time around is they came out and said they knew the problem and they had addressed it so the new ones that people like Marty got should not have the same issue. Sadly it would seem this was a lie or at least they haven't really given it too much of a thought assuming the best and hopefully no one else complains about the same problem. Until they can prove that this issue has been fully resolved with proper testing and implement a fix for all those that have this issue the trust will be lost no fancy bling or power to new wheels will ever bring back the trust. Gotway the balls are in your court prove what you are willing to do come out and speak to the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzypixel Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 > Gotway, the balls are in your court, but do you have the balls? fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 If i don't feel safe on a wheel, because I know the manufacturer doesn't appear to make safety a priority, no large battery, fancy shell or top speed will convince me to ride it, nor anyone I care about. it's simply too dangerous to go by what seems to be an honor system for QA(?) We're talking about some real danger here to life & limb. It reminds me of being a kid at a carnival type thing with rides. The Carney's looked so seedy, you smelled weed or booze near them, you knew they would be in a different town tomorrow and have to tear down and rebuild. No damn way would I go on those rides. The thrill should be the ride, not "Hey! Shouldn't that be bolted togeth-" *crash!!* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duf Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: Gotway has already acknowledged that there's a problem with firmware so I don't think we need to wonder about the cause. My understanding is that the ACMs are also affected, but Jason probably knows more. @Jason McNeil - If I were a gambling man, I'd trust totally in Gotway and just mail out replacement controller boards to affected users. If I were wanting to be 100% sure, I'd see if I could get Marty's wheel that demonstrated the accident couriered to me on my dime, give him a new replacement wheel from stock (+inform him to ride it cautiously if he wants or wait for a replacement control board), and verify the components of the wheel in question myself before embarking on a nation-wide control board replacement program. Verify connector issues, continuity, check inside the motor, etc. I'd get myself a new control board installed and test the stink out of it. I think the cost to courier a wheel to Florida and do a thorough breakdown analysis is likely worth it to avoid that possible "oops" condition where another recall is needed related to another reason. EDIT: Just an idea / suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 5 hours ago, Marty Backe said: I think the video says it all. I could wheel the wheel start oscillating (for a fraction of a second) before I was thrown from the wheel. Hard to describe, but I think those of us who have experienced understand the sensation. There is zero warning. I've ridden over stuff like this all the time. The more I research BLDC motor oscillation there appears to be a common thread...Hall Effect Sensor Decoding. It appears that any failure of a hall effect sensor directly effects the applied voltages to the BLDC motor and degrades the motor's performance. There are suppose to be fault tolerant control systems built into control boards that are responsible for detecting and identifying any decoding fault, isolate the faulty section and take the appropriate remedial action to keep the system working with the maximum possible efficiency in the post-fault condition. I'm not sure if Gotway uses a fault tolerant control system. If so did something change in the firmware where the system is not fully compatible with the hall sensors or visa versa. When the new motors were redesigned, in addition to the larger wires, did GW engineers install different hall sensors that may not be fully compatible with the existing firmware? A study was conducted by an engineering firm to test the hall effect sensor faults of the BLDC motor. They tested both short circuit and open circuit faults of hall effect sensors with an experimental BLDC motor running at speeds up to 2000 RPM and then analysed the results. The study determined that an open circuit fault of a single hall sensor caused both speed oscillation and high acoustic noise of the BLDC motor used in the study. Does this sound familiar? If GW uses a fault tolerant control system in fheir firmware it may not be fully detecting and identifying the fault. Only Gotway engineers can tell us exactly what alterations they made to the new motors and or the firmware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Hatchet said: How much you guys think it would cost Gotway to buy a used treadmill and some rolled up newspapers to duct tape to the belt to simulate bumps? Now that's QA! I have looked at buying a non motorized treadmill with a 15 degree incline to test my ACM. I do like the newspaper bump idea! Actually my secretary might like your idea even more as she was going to be in charge of manually shaking the ramp up and down as I rode the wheel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Gotway has already acknowledged that there's a problem with firmware so I don't think we need to wonder about the cause. My understanding is that the ACMs are also affected, but Jason probably knows more. Well that was a quick analysis! Hopefully this is not some knee jerk explanation just to maintain sales! I hope Jason will be provided the exact cause of the firmware issue and not some watered down boiler plate statement that will only add insult to injury! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 41 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: The more I research BLDC motor oscillation there appears to be a common thread...Hall Effect Sensor Decoding. It appears that any failure of a hall effect sensor directly effects the applied voltages to the BLDC motor and degrades the motor's performance. There are suppose to be fault tolerant control systems built into control boards that are responsible for detecting and identifying any decoding fault, isolate the faulty section and take the appropriate remedial action to keep the system working with the maximum possible efficiency in the post-fault condition. I'm not sure if Gotway uses a fault tolerant control system. If so did something change in the firmware where the system is not fully compatible with the hall sensors or visa versa. When the new motors were redesigned, in addition to the larger wires, did GW engineers install different hall sensors that may not be fully compatible with the existing firmware? A study was conducted by an engineering firm to test the hall effect sensor faults of the BLDC motor. They tested both short circuit and open circuit faults of hall effect sensors with an experimental BLDC motor running at speeds up to 2000 RPM and then analysed the results. The study determined that an open circuit fault of a single hall sensor caused both speed oscillation and high acoustic noise of the BLDC motor used in the study. Does this sound familiar? If GW uses a fault tolerant control system in fheir firmware it may not be fully detecting and identifying the fault. Only Gotway engineers can tell us exactly what alterations they made to the new motors and or the firmware. Oh God, now we have two possible causes; the motor or the the control board. I'm still hoping it's just the control board because Gotway acknowledge a change in the firmware a couple of weeks ago. My hand is currently a claw, but once it returns to more normal behavior I'm going to experiment with the wheel to see if I can find a repeatable low speed scenario. If that's possible then we may feel better when installing a new board and using the test to check its effectiveness. But Gotway needs to open up some and let the community know what they changed that broke things and how they've reverted to the stable software that's been in use for the last couple of years. Without some level of transparency there will always be doubt. If all I get is a new board without any explanation I'm going to be extremely gun shy about pushing the wheel. And of course that's why I bought a MSuper - to be conservative in my riding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kour Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: If all I get is a new board without any explanation I'm going to be extremely gun shy about pushing the wheel. And of course that's why I bought a MSuper - to be conservative in my riding speed over some bumpy, grassy field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainKBLS Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 So I don't understand. Is the wheel refundable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Jason just sent out email for recalling the Msuper's and ACM's. I decided it is safer to go with King Song 16S instead... Too bad for Gotway, I'm thinking while I get better on the King Song, it gives them time to get their act together and when I hear that they have stabilized over the coming months, will consider the MSuper as the next step up from my EUC obsession. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodman Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, eddiemoy said: Jason just sent out email for recalling the Msuper's and ACM's. I decided it is safer to go with King Song 16S instead... Too bad for Gotway, I'm thinking while I get better on the King Song, it gives them time to get their act together and when I hear that they have stabilized over the coming months, will consider the MSuper as the next step up from my EUC obsession. LOL That's nice to hear at least Jason is doing something about it, hope he isn't out of pocket for the recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 It's interesting to watch my crash in slow motion. On YouTube you can change the speed to .5x (and still hear the sound). Until now I didn't realize that the wheel actually beeped once before I got thrown off, while the MSuper was still vertical. That's absolutely proof that something strange was happening to the wheel. You (me) can have self-doubt after awhile, thinking maybe I did something wrong. Yet I've ridden that same sidewalk/street crossing dozens of times. Anyway, it's interesting to watch in slo-mo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 In 0.25x slomo you can actually see the oscillation quite well. So the cause of the crash is not the wheel cutting out (as I thought) but the wheel throwing you off like a rodeo bull? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 5 hours ago, Duf said: (video) It's funny, if one watched only this video and how you talk about him, one might think Marty is the extreme daredevil of the EUC world, doing one crazy stunt after the next (in a way he is...) -- Small clarification about the cable shorting issues you mentioned: The ultimate reason are the thin axles, which must fit the cables, so the cables can't be nearly as thick as they need to be. So this problem potentially affects every EUC manufacturer, not just Gotway. They all have these thin axles. Other designs are just lower power (less heat), lucky (Monster stopping due to overheating before the cables are damaged), or the manufacturers actually care and the wheel stops you before something happens (Kingsong, I guess). But probably the Rockwheel GT16 (for example) might have the same problem when pushed up a steep hill (unless the cooling is so much better that the cables stay at a good temperature even then) - powerful wheel + thin cables = heat. -- Enjoying your videos (one more Alligator ride, maybe, with Cindy? The rest of Florida seems awfully dull compared to that), and looking forward to your thoughts on the 16S! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 @Duf very well said in your video! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: The ultimate reason are the thin axles, which must fit the cables, so the cables can't be nearly as thick as they need to be. So this problem potentially affects every EUC manufacturer, not just Gotway. They all have these thin axles. Other designs are just lower power (less heat), lucky (Monster stopping due to overheating before the cables are damaged), or the manufacturers actually care and the wheel stops you before something happens (Kingsong, I guess). But probably the Rockwheel GT16 (for example) might have the same problem when pushed up a steep hill (unless the cooling is so much better that the cables stay at a good temperature even then) - powerful wheel + thin cables = heat. its actually that the axle designs are a bit different on the producers/wheels AND that they are pushing much less current to the motor... the Monster has a wider axle, while i dont know the AWG of the wires, KS has done a bit wider axles on their S models AND use thicker wires AND mostly haven't pushed such crazy amount of amps. Only some less people now that KS have had with their first 1200Watt KS18 versions also some wire problems,(never such bad as GW now) but reacted instantly to these problems since at least KS18AY.... Its just that GW seams to have the least motivation to go on the safety road or learn from their faults and there i am with Duf, as long as people gave them their money because of their "nice" performance...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trey Lewis Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I really want this to be resolved. I think the Msuper is the best wheel on the market in a lot of ways for enthusiast. We have people asking all the time why we don't have the Msuper (probably our most asked question) and it is because everytime we have wanted to there have been concerns such as this. We wanted to get some in February and there was another issue at the time across the Facebook pages with Msuper failures. I want one so bad, but at the speeds I maintain I need it to feel confident with putting my life in Gotway's hands (Which I do everyday I guess, but not on an Msuper... yet). Hoping this is the last batch of Msuper failures. It is an incredibly impressive wheel. Glad it didn't cause you any serious damage, I have witnessed a couple of bad crashes first hand and it is the most frightening thing, makes me take some time off my wheel each time and reflect on riding even though I am not even the one crashing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trey Lewis Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 8 hours ago, Hatchet said: Not if someone dies god forbid. It is fortunate that the issue shows itself at lower speeds. If it wasn't evident until 20mph+ this would be a total nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 12 hours ago, KingSong69 said: @meepmeepmayer The "oscillating " problem is that after a bump o small jump or street imperfection the wheel starts to roll/oscillate uncontollable in one direction, forward/backward, and that so heavy and fast that you are -not able to controll the wheel anymore and-in the end it then cutsout... thats how i understand and learned it from another conversation. 11 hours ago, Tilmann said: How can GW demonstrate QM improvements? Just as an example, I would love to see a video showing a test rig, allowing the wheel to spin under load at any selected speed and then induce a "bump" to simulate riding over a curb, tree root, etc. I am not pretending, that's the ultimate proof of a successful fix, but I would feel much better seeing such an effort. ... A first step should be a mathematical model of the whole system (motor, physics, control loop) to design a stable controller. That's a well understood topic easy to accomplish by experts. A PID controller is nothing magic and can be perfectly designed... An oscilation as a response to a step function input to a controller is not at all necessary - just a one time investment into one who knows what he does. The test-rigs are a great second step to proof and fine-tune the model empirically. The test-rigs would also be great to test/show max continous load situations and so show weak links in the system to the designers... No more burned cables, fried mosfets, etc... There are thermal probs with the actual wheels - they cannot provide their 1200W continously. Not to speak from the peak values (3600w?) With this test data firmware limits could be implemented to get the wheels really safe - something like 3600W for max 10sec, 1200W for 5 min, 800W for 10 min, etc with a time constant to simulate the recovery of the system ... Quite an easy task with solid simulations and test data at hand. 7 hours ago, Rehab1 said: The more I research BLDC motor oscillation there appears to be a common thread...Hall Effect Sensor Decoding. It appears that any failure of a hall effect sensor directly effects the applied voltages to the BLDC motor and degrades the motor's performance. There are suppose to be fault tolerant control systems built into control boards that are responsible for detecting and identifying any decoding fault, isolate the faulty section and take the appropriate remedial action to keep the system working with the maximum possible efficiency in the post-fault condition. I'm not sure if Gotway uses a fault tolerant control system. If so did something change in the firmware where the system is not fully compatible with the hall sensors or visa versa. When the new motors were redesigned, in addition to the larger wires, did GW engineers install different hall sensors that may not be fully compatible with the existing firmware? A study was conducted by an engineering firm to test the hall effect sensor faults of the BLDC motor. They tested both short circuit and open circuit faults of hall effect sensors with an experimental BLDC motor running at speeds up to 2000 RPM and then analysed the results. The study determined that an open circuit fault of a single hall sensor caused both speed oscillation and high acoustic noise of the BLDC motor used in the study. Does this sound familiar? If GW uses a fault tolerant control system in fheir firmware it may not be fully detecting and identifying the fault. Only Gotway engineers can tell us exactly what alterations they made to the new motors and or the firmware. pfff... That would be quite another huge design fault - they should get the signal transmission from the sensors to the mb safe - again nothing magic. Maybe @electric_vehicle_loveror some others from "our firmware members" can help them out to implement a sensorless control (or some mixed mode model to use the sensors just for "calibration"/startup or whatever...), if the interference with the motor cables are not be handled... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingfelder Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Saw this thread a while ago, took a while to get through it too. Sorry you had this accident, Marty, and this disappointment with your (our!) wheel(s). What really surprises me is how small the curb was. I didn't even register it as an obstacle on my first watch. Also, how suddenly you got thrown and how little apparent oscillation there is. I saw another video or two in which the oscillation was quite pronounced ... so I thought you'd get more warning all around. Your video certainly shows a crash could happen to anyone riding one of these affected MSupers. Best of luck on getting well quickly. I can empathize with your not wanting to wear wrist guards. I got some and they are way bulkier than the ones I used to use for rollerblading, and make it impossible for me to grip anything or even lean against a wall with a flat hand. But they are indeed very very important. It will be interesting seeing how this all turns out. And I hope nobody loses any money, including Jason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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