Marty Backe Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Tilmann said: How can GW demonstrate QM improvements? Just as an example, I would love to see a video showing a test rig, allowing the wheel to spin under load at any selected speed and the induce a "bump" to simulate riding over a curb, tree root, etc. I am not pretending, that's the ultimate proof of a successful fix, but I would feel much better seeing such an effort. I run large automation projects in the industry for a living. With a recent multi-million project, it was part of my job to convince a smaller supplier to trade his "it's on my laptop, would you have a USB stick for me to deliver it to you?" to adherence to the most fundamental disciplines of release management and delivery discipline... You're on the right track. The only way to gain confidence is to see some insight in how operate. Videos, discussions, etc. But all we get is silence. I work for a large aerospace company. Configuration management in all aspects is our life blood. It's mind boggling to hear your story, but there's no arguing with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Well said, and I agree. The sad thing is this is all speculation. Gotway continues to be black hole. I have my doubts that we will learn anything more. I don't know how they are going to prove to Jason or others that these news boards are "fixed". It's 2017. If they really aren't using source control for their software all hope is lost. Yip, thats it: A black hole! well said...... when you see the videos of a Go around in the GW production.....and then still think that there is some kind of like "we know" qualitycontrol/management.....you can not be helped... Source Control? i am coming from Software Development and i would hope that they have at least that....some kind of management of their stable firmware drivers.....but as this incident proves, (and GW-Linnea did not lie to Jason) they seam to be far away from this...... Unfortunatly! but there is still some hope left...even for gotway ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Marty Backe said: I'm not sending it back to Jason. What's to tear down and analyze? It's just a bunch of bits in the firmware. That's the thing - is everyone 100% certain it is just the firmware and have ruled out possibly a hardware issue? This may be what Gotway is saying, but after viewing the events I'm a little leery of trusting what they are saying. When a new jumbo jet crashes unexpectedly, they go over everything with a fine tooth comb. They don't just say yeah we did change some code in the firmware, swap that out, and all will be fine. Maybe it's just the suspicious mind in me (Elvis reference), but when a major failure like this occurs, I'd prefer to be reassured that there are no other issues rather than go on assumptions. Also from a dealer standpoint, Gotway said the wheel batch was safe to mail out. Can you imagine contacting all those customers to get them to not to ride but to wait to swap out control boards? Some may not have the skills to do so. Some may have exploding connectors when reconnecting the packs. Some may be successful and then find out oh oh the problem persists and was actually related to a hardware problem? This is like a dealer's worst nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: That's the thing - is everyone 100% certain it is just the firmware and have ruled out possibly a hardware issue? This may be what Gotway is saying, but after viewing the events I'm a little leery of trusting what they are saying. When a new jumbo jet crashes unexpected, they go over everything with a fine tooth comb. They don't just say yeah we did change some code in the firmware, swap that out, and all will be fine. Maybe it's just the suspicious mind in me (Elvis reference), but when a major failure like this occurs, I'd prefer to be reassured that there are no other issues rather than go on assumptions. I'm totally with you @Hunka Hunka Burning Love. But these are Chinese made EUCs we're talking about The fact that Gotway acknowledged some time ago that firmware changes were made points strongly in that direction. Beyond that you have a motor and batteries. You may be "a little leery", but I'm really lerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Marty Backe said: ..it'll be OK - but no gym for me for awhile. Thanks man! At least something good came of this Heartbroken to see the video Marty. Like some others, I thank god you weren't heading for a road at the time, you'd be tossed into traffic! Scary man. I hope your wrist is simply swollen. 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: You want to but a >1000Wh 18 inch wheel? Gotway, or the comparably overpriced KS18.You want a 22 incher? I don't consider the KS18s overpriced, certainly not cheap, hehe. However, I've come to the decision that if KS can deliver on the safety and QM, using qualified components etc, that is something I am willing to pay a premium for. Breaking a wrist or ankle would mean missed time at work, all kinds of hell. I don't know if KS are any better, never owned one, but they do make the effort to market the safety and improvements to components, so I'd hope it's legit. I know riding my wheel puts me at risk for an accident, but not trusting the wheel I'm standing on? Forget that man! Isn't it weird that you can't simply call Gotway and complain/feedback? A western company would be worried about lawsuits or simply a bad reputation. Hell, Gotway should reach out to Marty and anyone else affected personally and offer him compensation, a recall similar to car manufacturers. But as said, it's some mysterious company/small warehouse in China somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 hours ago, houseofjob said: Ummmm.... super hard to cutout on an 84V 1500W nominal wheel. Also, wobbles are super noticeable. I noticed at 3:50 pretty noticeable wobble and a couple of other times saw a wobble come and go. I've never seen wobbles like that in any of his other videos, seemed a little strange. When he started to cross the street right before the crash, hitting that small transition made it wobble a bit but it straightened right out. Then when he hit the second transition back up the the sidewalk it happened so fast that I couldn't tell what exactly happened, but freezing the video showed the feet coming off the pedals like it was some kind of mini cutout, or the bump was bigger than it looked and just bounced him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, steve454 said: I noticed at 3:50 pretty noticeable wobble and a couple of other times saw a wobble come and go. I've never seen wobbles like that in any of his other videos, seemed a little strange. When he started to cross the street right before the crash, hitting that small transition made it wobble a bit but it straightened right out. Then when he hit the second transition back up the the sidewalk it happened so fast that I couldn't tell what exactly happened, but freezing the video showed the feet coming off the pedals like it was some kind of mini cutout, or the bump was bigger than it looked and just bounced him off. As I mentioned in a previous post, this was the very first time I road this wheel faster than 10mph. So I had a few side-to-side wobbles as I was adjusting to this new (wider than my previous MSuper) wheel. Those wobbles have nothing to do with the failure. When I was riding the sidewalk I felt nice and stable. I've ridden that same sidewalk and street curb dozens of times at the same speed with all of my wheels. Really nothing special that should have caused the wheel to throw me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Marcos75 said: Yes it is like this. Take a look at my video in the fb gotway group grpm Markus polasik. There you can see it a little bit better. And imagine this at highspeed. I think that is the one I saw earlier today. Hit a small bump and the wheel started oscillating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodman Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Glad your ok Marty this is the third fall you have had in such a short time span. Let's hope this is the last, really sorry to hear the new Gotway has the problem which should have been fixed. For sure I agree with you the next step is to see how Gotway explains and repairs this major issue. Wish you a speedy recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Glad you're OK @Marty Backe, that was a nasty spill that could easily have turned ugly. The Chinese are pretty good programmers overall, at least their hackers are everywhere... But I think they're still behind the loop when it comes to fundamentals as Test Driven Development, Version Control, Continuous Integration, Automatic Testing Systems and so on on the software side. And their hardware testing and Quality Control seems very ad hoc, without a clear direction, methodology and review. I don't understand why these companies don't get the simple fact that systematic testing, review, and correction of probable points of failure are far cheaper than consumer failures. The cost is not just sending out replacement boards/motors/whatnot, but also the lost sales when people lose faith in your product. Not to mention the fact that you fail to learn from mistakes made, when you don't bother singling out those mistakes. That the Chinese CAN produce quality is obvious when they actually try. Apples production is a case in point, and so is just about every other "big tech" company whose production is in China, but where the adherence to QC is overseas. This is getting ridiculous, while this tech is advanced, it really is fairly simple. Using well known "best practise" guidelines, would save us sooooo much grief. That they tend to be cluelessly happy go lucky is obvious in every little detail. The sounds from the motor, which shows the coils are insufficiently fixated, which in turn means they're more susceptible to water damage; the hall sensors that are soldered without PCB-support; the too thin wires, insufficient isolation and flimsy connectors; the lacking heat management and power-spike management; The naked boards (KS is way ahead in this single aspect); the thin axles and rough machining of holes in the axle and so on. Wherever you study details, there is some oversight. Things that would cost a few cents to a few dollars per wheel to fix, but would mean happy customers and fewer returns in the other end. And this isn't just Gotway, it seems to be a general problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: As I mentioned in a previous post, this was the very first time I road this wheel faster than 10mph. So I have a few side-to-side wobbles as I was adjusting to this new (wider than my previous MSuper) wheel. Those wobbles have nothing to do with the failure. When I was riding the sidewalk I felt nice and stable. I've ridden that same sidewalk and street curb dozens of times at the same speed with all of my wheels. Really nothing special that should have caused the wheel to throw me off. Oh, yeah, I forgot the old MSuper was 820wh battery, the new one with the double sized battery must feel considerably wider and heavier. I wonder if the extra weight played a part, it looked like you got some air right before the crash and hit the slope kind of hard. Great that you landed on your feet first and were able to roll through the fall. I hope you feel better soon, and that your wrist is okay. Man, that was a scary fall! Thanks for alerting us to this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, steve454 said: Oh, yeah, I forgot the old MSuper was 820wh battery, the new one with the double sized battery must feel considerably wider and heavier. I wonder if the extra weight played a part, it looked like you got some air right before the crash and hit the slope kind of hard. Great that you landed on your feet first and were able to roll through the fall. I hope you feel better soon, and that your wrist is okay. Man, that was a scary fall! Thanks for alerting us to this problem. Yes, the wheel feels much more substantial. When it's not throwing me off, it has a really nice feel to the ride. Someday I hope it's going to be a great wheel to ride. There was a little bounce at that sidewalk transition. Always is. But this was not extreme riding. If a wheel can't handle that kind of transition with a little speed, well, it's a sucky wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Tilmann said: How can GW demonstrate QM improvements? Just as an example, I would love to see a video showing a test rig, allowing the wheel to spin under load at any selected speed and then induce a "bump" to simulate riding over a curb, tree root, etc. I am not pretending, that's the ultimate proof of a successful fix, but I would feel much better seeing such an effort. I run large automation projects in the industry for a living. With a recent multi-million project, it was part of my job to convince a smaller supplier to trade his "it's on my laptop, would you have a USB stick for me to deliver it to you?" to adherence to the most fundamental disciplines of release management and delivery discipline... When I read your signature that said Gotway MSuper V1 (680wh, MS, confiscated, at first I thought it said, osscilated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 20 minutes ago, Scatcat said: Glad you're OK @Marty Backe, that was a nasty spill that could easily have turned ugly. The Chinese are pretty good programmers overall, at least their hackers are everywhere... But I think they're still behind the loop when it comes to fundamentals as Test Driven Development, Version Control, Continuous Integration, Automatic Testing Systems and so on on the software side. And their hardware testing and Quality Control seems very ad hoc, without a clear direction, methodology and review. I don't understand why these companies don't get the simple fact that systematic testing, review, and correction of probable points of failure are far cheaper than consumer failures. The cost is not just sending out replacement boards/motors/whatnot, but also the lost sales when people lose faith in your product. Not to mention the fact that you fail to learn from mistakes made, when you don't bother singling out those mistakes. That the Chinese CAN produce quality is obvious when they actually try. Apples production is a case in point, and so is just about every other "big tech" company whose production is in China, but where the adherence to QC is overseas. This is getting ridiculous, while this tech is advanced, it really is fairly simple. Using well known "best practise" guidelines, would save us sooooo much grief. That they tend to be cluelessly happy go lucky is obvious in every little detail. The sounds from the motor, which shows the coils are insufficiently fixated, which in turn means they're more susceptible to water damage; the hall sensors that are soldered without PCB-support; the too thin wires, insufficient isolation and flimsy connectors; the lacking heat management and power-spike management; The naked boards (KS is way ahead in this single aspect); the thin axles and rough machining of holes in the axle and so on. Wherever you study details, there is some oversight. Things that would cost a few cents to a few dollars per wheel to fix, but would mean happy customers and fewer returns in the other end. And this isn't just Gotway, it seems to be a general problem. All those things are just complete Engineering incompetence or no engineering. It just looks like they just put stuff together and see what happens. Simple calculations would have told them all these issues ahead of time. And if they did the dimple calculations, then they shipped the product with the assumption that no one would side it on long hills, or fat people or acrobats jumping of curbs and stairs. But in all seriousness, the issues are simple Engineering principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abinder3 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: KS18S 1680Wh looks might fine, Marty I'm totally happy with my KS18AY. Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Yes, the wheel feels much more substantial. When it's not throwing me off, it has a really nice feel to the ride. Someday I hope it's going to be a great wheel to ride. There was a little bounce at that sidewalk transition. Always is. But this was not extreme riding. If a wheel can't handle that kind of transition with a little speed, well, it's a sucky wheel I agree, it should be able to handle a transition like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Michael Vu said: Wow I'm glad you're ok @Marty Backe! Good that you were able to capture it on video. Interesting for you that it was almost instant while for me I was able to ride the wobble for about a second before I fell off. What was your battery level at by the way? For me it was around 50% and since I've charged it back up, I haven't been able to recreate the issue even when dropping off curbs although I do feel like is almost on the verge of doing so. But maybe I need to get the battery level down to 50% again for this behavior to happen. I'm really new to the EUC scene, but from my limited observation, I've notice that when the wheel is really high in pressure, there is more of a tenancy for there to be a wobble. But it could also be that I'm in experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Marty Backe said: It's with sad news that I'm here to say that my brand new (now scratched to hell) MSuper V3s+ is afflicted with the now infamous Gotway oscillation syndrome. I had just picked it up personally from @Jason McNeil a couple of days ago while he was out in California inspecting his latest delivery from Gotway. He's a great guy to hang with btw, and we (Jason, myself, and @Sven) had a fun little ride in some local hills. Andy, you need to post that video you made! Of course I tested mine a day ago by riding (slowly - which is key to remember) over various bumps, curbs, etc. No problems. Yeah! But this morning was my first opportunity to take it for a serious ride. I setup my camera and filmed a short mini-review introduction to my new MSuper (God I wanted to love this wheel) and then took it out on the road. As you'll see in the video below, about 3 minutes into the ride I'm on a sidewalk, probably not going faster than 15mph. I travel across a street and up on to the sidewalk, and that transition was enough to cause it to instantly oscillate and throw me off the wheel. My take away is that the wheel has to be traveling at a fairly good clip for this to happen. But as you can see, I was not exactly traveling at an extreme speed. Jason is screwed with his recent shipment, and I must say anyone who has received a unit within the last month or so is risking their skin if riding the wheel faster than 10mph. Even though I say in the video that I'm probably going to ride it, I'm not. As I rode home I couldn't make myself go faster than 10mph for fear of the oscillation. There is zero warning. There's absolutely no fun riding a wheel under those conditions. I have no clue how Gotway is going to prove any recent wheel delivery is without the problem. They clearly lied to Jason regarding his shipment, and he must be one of their best dealers. When I get a new control board (I assume), how will I know Gotway did anything. Who wants to gear up and ride 15 - 20 mph into a bump to test it? I'm sure I'll be more open to the idea after a few days, but not now. My left wrist and hand is getting worse as I type this Well guys, I only have my Monster and KS14C to ride now, and summer months are upon us. What a bummer. Enjoy the video The thumbnail is 1 second before the crash - ouch. Marty, glad to see you are not hurt more than you are. I had a wrist injury from riding the Segway mini Pro a year ago and it still hurts. I'm also one of the guys waiting for my ACMs+ from Jason's recent shipment. I almost had him change it from the ACM to the MSuper, but in the end I changed stuck with my initial gut choice. I hope the ACM doesn't have this issue... I was also thinking it could be a loose connector? Maybe the impact causes a momentary loss of power/connection inside the unit? When I watched your video it cleared the curb about 2 feet before you fell off. Does the oscillation feel like the unit putting on the breaks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, eddiemoy said: Marty, glad to see you are not hurt more than you are. I had a wrist injury from riding the Segway mini Pro a year ago and it still hurts. I'm also one of the guys waiting for my ACMs+ from Jason's recent shipment. I almost had him change it from the ACM to the MSuper, but in the end I changed stuck with my initial gut choice. I hope the ACM doesn't have this issue... I was also thinking it could be a loose connector? Maybe the impact causes a momentary loss of power/connection inside the unit? When I watched your video it cleared the curb about 2 feet before you fell off. Does the oscillation feel like the unit putting on the breaks? Gotway has already acknowledged that there's a problem with firmware so I don't think we need to wonder about the cause. My understanding is that the ACMs are also affected, but Jason probably knows more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Marty Backe said: It's not a cut out. Hard to describe, but the wheel was still balancing at some level. I've experience a cutout (a generic wheel) and this is not it. Who knows, may only a random number of boards are affected. Since Gotmay may not have any kind of configuration management, there could be good wheels among the bad wheels. Wouldn't it be nice to call up the app and see the firmware version??? It reminds me of the video where the KS14C hit the hole in the trail and stopped dead and threw you off. (but at a much slower speed) Are you going to try KingSong? Your reviews are great! BTW, at my skill level, I could probably ride the MSuper and never have a problem. 10 MPH is my max comfortable riding speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, steve454 said: It reminds me of the video where the KS14C hit the hole in the trail and stopped dead and threw you off. (but at a much slower speed) Are you going to try KingSong? Your reviews are great! BTW, at my skill level, I could probably ride the MSuper and never have a problem. 10 MPH is my max comfortable riding speed. You want to buy my MSuper? Just kidding I still have high hopes for a fix. Actually I'm seriously thinking about getting the upcoming KS14S. But I'm still a Gotway fan of the 16" thru 22" wheels. If there was a 1600wh version of the KS16S I would consider it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: You want to buy my MSuper? Yes, but I can't afford it. It's too new. Put about 50 eleven miles on it and I offer 700 dollars. 3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I still have high hopes for a fix. I think you will get it fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatcat Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 46 minutes ago, eddiemoy said: I'm really new to the EUC scene, but from my limited observation, I've notice that when the wheel is really high in pressure, there is more of a tenancy for there to be a wobble. But it could also be that I'm in experienced. There are wobbles and then there are wobbles. The sideways squirrely wobbles when accelerating seems to be something many of us newer riders experience. The reasons AFAIK are that experience makes you more relaxed, which means tense muscles don't aggravate the situation - and not standing with one foot slightly behind the other, or too far back on the pedals. I find that I wobble a bit more if I'm uncomfortable. It can be because of gusts of wind, a bad road, or just being tired in my legs. Then I tend to press my feet and legs too hard against the shell, and that creates the conditions for a wobble. But this wobble/oscillation seems more like rapid changes in motor power, pulling forward or back relative to your speed in the direction you're going, then cutting out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchet Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 How much you guys think it would cost Gotway to buy a used treadmill and some rolled up newspapers to duct tape to the belt to simulate bumps? Now that's QA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shabba Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 4 hours ago, Marty Backe said: It's with sad news that I'm here to say that my brand new (now scratched to hell) MSuper V3s+ is afflicted with the now infamous Gotway oscillation syndrome. I had just picked it up personally from @Jason McNeil a couple of days ago while he was out in California inspecting his latest delivery from Gotway. He's a great guy to hang with btw, and we (Jason, myself, and @Sven) had a fun little ride in some local hills. Andy, you need to post that video you made! Of course I tested mine a day ago by riding (slowly - which is key to remember) over various bumps, curbs, etc. No problems. Yeah! But this morning was my first opportunity to take it for a serious ride. I setup my camera and filmed a short mini-review introduction to my new MSuper (God I wanted to love this wheel) and then took it out on the road. As you'll see in the video below, about 3 minutes into the ride I'm on a sidewalk, probably not going faster than 15mph. I travel across a street and up on to the sidewalk, and that transition was enough to cause it to instantly oscillate and throw me off the wheel. My take away is that the wheel has to be traveling at a fairly good clip for this to happen. But as you can see, I was not exactly traveling at an extreme speed. Jason is screwed with his recent shipment, and I must say anyone who has received a unit within the last month or so is risking their skin if riding the wheel faster than 10mph. Even though I say in the video that I'm probably going to ride it, I'm not. As I rode home I couldn't make myself go faster than 10mph for fear of the oscillation. There is zero warning. There's absolutely no fun riding a wheel under those conditions. I have no clue how Gotway is going to prove any recent wheel delivery is without the problem. They clearly lied to Jason regarding his shipment, and he must be one of their best dealers. When I get a new control board (I assume), how will I know Gotway did anything. Who wants to gear up and ride 15 - 20 mph into a bump to test it? I'm sure I'll be more open to the idea after a few days, but not now. My left wrist and hand is getting worse as I type this Well guys, I only have my Monster and KS14C to ride now, and summer months are upon us. What a bummer. Enjoy the video The thumbnail is 1 second before the crash - ouch. Damn sorry Marty, that has to be one of the worse feeling in the world, I have the same wheel, the black and white matte version, the same day I got it I almost fell because I got chased by a bit bull and after I got away all I could think about was my brand new wheel being damaged from falling, gotway really have to get on this ASAP, in one of the comments someone said they don't know how gotway is gonna recover from this, the crazy thing is they will, all they have to do is bring out wheels with bigger motors, bigger batteries and flashy colors and consumers are right back on board, hope your msuper 1600 is back on its feet before the summer is over, sorry buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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