MaxLinux Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 On 6/22/2017 at 9:19 PM, Rehab1 said: The study determined that an open circuit fault of a single hall sensor caused both speed oscillation and high acoustic noise of the BLDC motor used in the study. Does this sound familiar? If GW uses a fault tolerant control system in fheir firmware it may not be fully detecting and identifying the fault. If this is the reason, then apparently hall sensor open circuit faults are occurring WAY TOO OFTEN. I can understand firmware being "fault tolerant" of a rare, almost never occurring fault, but for faults happening this often, IT SHOULD BE PROPERLY DESIGNED SO THE FAULT DOESN'T HAPPEN, not making the firmware "tolerate" the fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 11 hours ago, Jeff_Nelson said: motor code for my ACM is 160905041, does that fall within the batch? Can't find the QC date. the motor code has nothing to do with it....it are the ones produced from late april/beginn May! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 On 6/23/2017 at 2:18 AM, meepmeepmayer said: one might think Marty is the extreme daredevil of the EUC world, doing one crazy stunt after the next (in a way he is...) Maybe he's not quite the American "EUC Extreme," but close! The upside is that EUC Extreme, Marty, and his riding companions are helping to drive EUC development. To me it's similar to how developments in racing eventually trickle into consumer cars. Marty & Co. are finding the limits of current designs, which when overcome, the result is increasingly robust wheels for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 On 6/23/2017 at 2:18 AM, meepmeepmayer said: maybe, with Cindy? +1 for more rides with Cindy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 On 6/23/2017 at 2:18 AM, meepmeepmayer said: The ultimate reason are the thin axles, which must fit the cables, so the cables can't be nearly as thick as they need to be. So this problem potentially affects every EUC manufacturer, not just Gotway. They all have these thin axles. Wouldn't it be great if somehow a new motor would be created that is especially for EUCs and has room for thick wires in the axle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 On 6/23/2017 at 6:13 AM, Rehab1 said: your tire could have lost contact with the surface a millisecond after this shot. That probably screwed with the algorithms in the firmware. The tire losing contact with the surface happens probably hundreds of times per ride as one goes over rocks and bumps, etc. That should never "screw with the algorithms in the firmware"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 1 hour ago, MaxLinux said: If this is the reason, then apparently hall sensor open circuit faults are occurring WAY TOO OFTEN. I can understand firmware being "fault tolerant" of a rare, almost never occurring fault, but for faults happening this often, IT SHOULD BE PROPERLY DESIGNED SO THE FAULT DOESN'T HAPPEN, not making the firmware "tolerate" the fault. Purely an observation at this point but I do find it interesting that when GW modified it's motors recently the oscillation issues began. Did the upgrades involve more than just increasing the wire diameter to 14awg? Did they change the hall sensors because the legs were to weak? If GW did change the hall sensors it may be possible that the sensors incompatible with the existing firmware. If this is a feasible scenario it would be much easier for GW to reprogram the firmware that to tear apart all of the motors and replace the hall sensors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 6 hours ago, Puce said: I'm affected and my motor code start with 1608. Marty motor code start with 1610. In your case, I wouldn't drive the wheel above 4 mph until we have a clear feedback about this issue Better safe than sorry. OK, so now we know motor code/motor production date (do they really still have motors from October 2016 lieing around and using them now?!) has nothing to do with it. Production date matters. Before bad firmware = good, after bad firmware = who knows. Does anybody have a specific date, and dates before it are safe as the firmware wasn't used yet? @Jason McNeil maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Rehab1 said: Purely an observation at this point but I do find it interesting that when GW modified it's motors recently the oscillation issues began. Did the upgrades involve more than just increasing the wire diameter to 14awg? Did they change the hall sensors because the legs were to weak? If the batch numbers really are dates, there are 1000 year old motors from August 2016 in affected wheels (one guy posted about problems with his 1608... wheel on the previous page). So it's not the motors. GW apparently bought a metric ton of these motors some time and is still going through that stock. For that reason, might be some time before we see the 14AWG wired motors even being used consistently. So, given this and that GW and everyone else is saying it is a bad firmware update, it's probably not the motors See this quote: 2 hours ago, KingSong69 said: the motor code has nothing to do with it....it are the ones produced from late april/beginn May! Yep, because then they started using the bad firmware. (the only connection to the new motors is, the bad firmware was apparently caused by an update to limit high currents in the high current problem that made Jason ask GW for thicker wires aka the 14AWG new motors) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 2 hours ago, MaxLinux said: +1 for more rides with Cindy I admit, I just want to see Cindy vs Alligators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Sorry to discover this horrible situation. Glad you're mostly unhurt But to tell the truth, it looks a lot like several of my Kingsong face plants. Especially my most recent after encountering a few small bumps with low battery. Some thoughts, 1. lucky there wasn't a post, tree or mail box in the " next two seconds" after the wobble started. 2. Gloves aren't wrist guards, despite what someone told me I must assume in a not so recent survey here on this site. sorry if these topics have already been covered, but I've been away for two months and didn't read all 6 pages of this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 8 hours ago, MaxLinux said: Are you saying you think a hardware issue might be the source of the problem? All things being equal , it's most likely a firmware issue. The fact that Gotway reassured Jason that his batch of wheels was not affected, followed by Marty eating pavement, and then Jason scrambling to remedy the situation gave me a little pause to wonder how reliable or informed Gotway's answer to the problem was. Are they assuming that is the problem or is it from analyzing the collection of rider accident data and their detailed change logs that they are coming to this conclusion? Or have they a faulty wheel in their possession, loaded up the new firmware, and tested it thoroughly now and proven definitively that it was the only source of the problem? Or is it just a guess to quickly try to fix the issue? I don't know nothing, Max Linux. I just ride a Ninebot. Yet consider some other possibilities like changes to a control board batch (eg. inferior grade gyro chip sourced by their supplier), weaknesses in design (eg. unsupported hall sensor legs directly soldered to output wires, thicker wires through same diameter axle channels with sharp edges, using PC grade headers not meant for high vibration applications), and you end up with a bunch of what ifs. I kinda like my airplane crash analogy. Do you want to be the first person flying in a Gotway plane after a bunch crashed, and all that was done was a firmware tweak to solve the issue without knowing if the company thoroughly investigated an actual faulty wheel? I'm sure Jason will be doing his own tests as he has a lot invested with Gotway at this point so that's reassuring. I sincerely hope that is it just a simple firmware issue. For the safety of riders though I felt compelled to ask the tough questions. I think I'd make for a decent accident investigator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Pretty sure Gotway have simply no idea exactly which boards and produced wheels have the bad firmware and which have not. Imagine the chaos of reflashing boards in a hurry. Lacking/nonexistant record keeping made them give a wrong answer to Jason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: So, given this and that GW and everyone else is saying it is a bad firmware update, it's probably not the motors I would love to believe what GW is telling us at the moment is true as I would love to fell safe and comfortable on my new ACM. After 3 months of mods I don't like the idea of buying more equipment and putting it though a batch of tests so I can feel secure riding my expensive wheel. I ponder if GW was aware there was a serious fault with their ACM and MSuper firmware before @Marty Backe 's video and then the evidence became so overwhelming they were forced to acknowledged there was a problem? Unfortunately we will never know the answer but at this time I am not fully convinced GW is offering adequate explanations for all of the problems that have ensued over the past few months. Will the firmware modification prevent motor wires from overheating? Are GW engineers going to test the firmware updates and subject the ACM and MSuper to strenuous testing that simulate bumps overs roads traveling at 20 mph or faster? How about climbing an elevated grade in 90 degree weather with a 225 pound rider for 30 minutes? If there are specific riding conditions that GW engineers feel are unsafe they should list those restrictions. In the aviation industry limitations are always clearly spelled out in a manual for each specific aircraft! We know the acceptable passenger and baggage weight limits, stall speeds, power to weight ratios, safe flight envelopes, etc! The most I have seen in spelled out in terms of safety and restrictions in their manuals is to 'wear protection while riding' and 'Do Not Ride if you are over the age of 60 or injury or death will result!' It is time that EUC manufacturers begin providing safety envelopes for their wheels. If a rider decides to venture outside those recommendations that would be their choice. At least the customer will has some knowledge as to the wheel's limitations. Hopefully this data would be based on a series of stringent tests that the manufacturer has thoroughly conducted at their factory. We are all tired of being non paid test dummies for the manufacturers! No reference to you Marty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Rehab1 said: I would love to believe what GW is telling us at the moment is true as I would love to fell safe and comfortable on my new ACM. After 3 months of mods I don't like the idea of buying more equipment and putting it though a batch of tests so I can feel secure riding my expensive wheel. I ponder if GW was aware there was a serious fault with their ACM and MSuper firmware before @Marty Backe 's video and then the evidence became so overwhelming they were forced to acknowledged there was a problem? Unfortunately we will never know the answer but at this time I am not fully convinced GW is offering adequate explanations for all of the problems that have ensued over the past few months. Will the firmware modification prevent motor wires from overheating? Are GW engineers going to test the firmware updates and subject the ACM and MSuper to strenuous testing that simulate bumps overs roads traveling at 20 mph or faster? How about climbing an elevated grade in 90 degree weather with a 225 pound rider for 30 minutes? If there are specific riding conditions that GW engineers feel are unsafe they should list those restrictions. In the aviation industry limitations are always clearly spelled out in a manual for each specific aircraft! We know the acceptable passenger and baggage weight limits, stall speeds, power to weight ratios, safe flight envelopes, etc! The most I have seen in spelled out in terms of safety and restrictions in their manuals is to 'wear protection while riding' and 'Do Not Ride if you are over the age of 60 or injury or death will result!' It is time that EUC manufacturers begin providing safety envelopes for their wheels. If a rider decides to venture outside those recommendations that would be their choice. At least the customer will has some knowledge as to the wheel's limitations. Hopefully this data would be based on a series of stringent tests that the manufacturer has thoroughly conducted at their factory. We are all tired of being non paid test dummies for the manufacturers! No reference to you Marty. I gingerly took my MSuper out on the street today, slowing going over bumps, falling off curbs, etc., in the hopes that I could get it to act up. I could not get myself to go much faster than 7-8mph. Nothing. My obvious concern is that after my board is re-flashed next week, how will I know that's good. I can tell you I'll be nervous as hell riding across a street like I did. That was not a fun experience. If Gotway wasn't opaque than I would have a lot more faith. But I don't. So the reality is that it may take a long time before I don't feel nervous about riding my new MSuper. That's sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 33 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I gingerly took my MSuper out on the street today, slowing going over bumps, falling off curbs, etc., in the hopes that I could get it to act up. I could not get myself to go much faster than 7-8mph I bet you were wearing the Backe robot suit! OMG that speed must have felt extremely slow! Were people passing you walking? Hopefully if the test rig comes together as planned I can go a bit faster. 33 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: My obvious concern is that after my board is re-flashed next week, how will I know that's good. I can tell you I'll be nervous as hell riding across a street like I did. That was not a fun experience. I would think Jason is all over GW for more technical details about the proposed update. So all that is required is a re-flash of the firmware? Will you be available during the procedure? Curious about the technique and the MB port that will be used. I just might be able to conduct some interesting experiments since I have two boards and another one coming from China once the firmware is updated. I'm sure Jason will be re-flashing the board he sold me last month. Having access to both the oId and new firmware I can swap out the boards and test each of them on the rig. At least that's the plan! The treadmill arrives Monday. I need to make sure it is stable enough for higher speeds. Humans don't traditionally jog at 25 mph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 41 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I gingerly took my MSuper out on the street today, slowing going over bumps, falling off curbs, etc., in the hopes that I could get it to act up. I could not get myself to go much faster than 7-8mph. Nothing. My obvious concern is that after my board is re-flashed next week, how will I know that's good. I can tell you I'll be nervous as hell riding across a street like I did. That was not a fun experience. If Gotway wasn't opaque than I would have a lot more faith. But I don't. So the reality is that it may take a long time before I don't feel nervous about riding my new MSuper. That's sad. That's the challenge with an intermittent fault... If you could reliably make it happen, then it would be easy to confirm it was resolved. Should I suggest that you try the same location / speed that caused it the first time? With a raft of mattresses laid down in advance, of course (and 18 cameras filming from every possible angle). 10 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: I just might be able to conduct some interesting experiments since I have two boards and another one coming from China once the firmware is updated. I'm sure Jason will be re-flashing the board he sold me last month. Having access to both the oId and new firmware I can swap out the boards and test each of them on the rig. At least that's the plan! The treadmill arrives Monday. I need to make sure it is stable enough for higher speeds. Humans don't traditionally jog at 25 mph. @Rehab1 - if you can get a stable test rig, and work through to confirm stability, you will be a legend! I reckon you could even buy wheels, test them and then on-sell (for a small profit). I know I'd sign up for that security blanket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodman Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 40 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I gingerly took my MSuper out on the street today, slowing going over bumps, falling off curbs, etc., in the hopes that I could get it to act up. I could not get myself to go much faster than 7-8mph. Nothing. My obvious concern is that after my board is re-flashed next week, how will I know that's good. I can tell you I'll be nervous as hell riding across a street like I did. That was not a fun experience. If Gotway wasn't opaque than I would have a lot more faith. But I don't. So the reality is that it may take a long time before I don't feel nervous about riding my new MSuper. That's sad. You will need full motorcycle gear with a full face helmet and expect you can fall at anytime. Otherwise look for a young test dummy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, Goodman said: Otherwise look for a young test dummy <sigh> Send me some plane tickets*... I'll do it! * Fat Unicyclists are required to fly business class (or better) at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 8 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: Should I suggest that you try the same location / speed that caused it the first time? With a raft of mattresses laid down in advance, of course (and 18 cameras filming from every possible angle). Oh I would pay high admission to witness that stunt! 9 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: @Rehab1 - if you can get a stable test rig, and work through to confirm stability, you will be a legend! I reckon you could even buy wheels, test them and then on-sell (for a small profit). I know I'd sign up for that security blanke IF! That is the major question! I deal mostly in biomechanics. The harness to hold me up if something goes wrong should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, Goodman said: You will need full motorcycle gear with a full face helmet and expect you can fall at anytime. Maybe we should be contacting @EUC Extremefor testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 26 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: I bet you were wearing the Backe robot suit! OMG that speed must have felt extremely slow! Were people passing you walking? Hopefully if the test rig comes together as planned I can go a bit faster. I would think Jason is all over GW for more technical details about the proposed update. So all that is required is a re-flash of the firmware? Will you be available during the procedure? Curious about the technique and the MB port that will be used. I just might be able to conduct some interesting experiments since I have two boards and another one coming from China once the firmware is updated. I'm sure Jason will be re-flashing the board he sold me last month. Having access to both the oId and new firmware I can swap out the boards and test each of them on the rig. At least that's the plan! The treadmill arrives Monday. I need to make sure it is stable enough for higher speeds. Humans don't traditionally jog at 25 mph. I believe that I will be there to watch. Depends on my schedule and Jason's. I hope you're right and Jason can squeeze some additional information out of them. My hand won't be in any condition to try and real-world testing, regardless of how padded up I'll be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: <snip> Should I suggest that you try the same location / speed that caused it the first time? With a raft of mattresses laid down in advance, of course (and 18 cameras filming from every possible angle). <snip> I've actually thought of that, but it's just not practical to get the 18 cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Just now, Marty Backe said: I believe that I will be there to watch. Depends on my schedule and Jason's. I hope you're right and Jason can squeeze some additional information out of them. My hand won't be in any condition to try and real-world testing, regardless of how padded up I'll be. That would be great! I know how much you hate taking video but could you please record the process? Tell me more about your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 25, 2017 Author Share Posted June 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: Oh I would pay high admission to witness that stunt! IF! That is the major question! I deal mostly in biomechanics. The harness to hold me up if something goes wrong should be interesting. Of course you guys do realize that to be valid, first the original crash must be replicated so that we have a known repeated test. Than we re-flash the wheel and do it again. I'm too old for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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