Marty Backe Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share Posted June 19, 2017 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: <snip> KS seems on a good way, their new mosfets are up to 350A or so (not sure if peak or sustained, probably peak), if the cabling matches that, they basically solved this problem. Through all the Gotway cabling discussions over the last few months I don't recall anyone commenting on how KingSong does it. Maybe I just missed it. What's the quality of their cabling from the control board to the motor and thru the axle? Does anyone reading this thread know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 19, 2017 Author Share Posted June 19, 2017 59 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said: Brrr, just back from vacation, what do I have to read ? Thanks God Marty was not hurt ! And thanks for the detailed infos, I think I will remove Gotway from my personal hitlist, so only Kingsong and Inmotion remain. BTW, I drove up a steep gravelroad to a location which is called "Schweizeben" (1006m) from Bruck (491m), this is 515 meters (~1500 feet) ascending on a distance of 2,5 kilometers, so the average incline is around 20% (11 degrees), which means there must be a lot steeper parts there, because there are also some more flat passages. Next time when I ride it I'll take a GPS with me to calculate the parameters in more detail. The KS16B didn't complain. It would be interesting to know the track parameters (average incline and distance) of your drive until the accident happened. BTW, I was somewhat afraid to post my experience for fear of scaring people away from Gotway. Yes, Gotway still has cable harness issues. They are far from perfect. But what happened to me occurred during a long very steep incline. 98% (I'm pulling that figure out of my butt) of EUC riders of Gotway wheels will probably never ride under the conditions that I was riding yesterday. Don't give up on Gotway folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveThomasPilot Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 What's the quality of their cabling from the control board to the motor and thru the axle? Does anyone reading this thread know? Given the wire gauge, the ampacity for an allowable temperature rise is readily available. Often the wire gauge is printed on the wire insulation. Or, with the wire diameter (without insulation) you can figure the wire gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 43 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Through all the Gotway cabling discussions over the last few months I don't recall anyone commenting on how KingSong does it. Maybe I just missed it. What's the quality of their cabling from the control board to the motor and thru the axle? Does anyone reading this thread know? Someone sometime mentioned 16AWG (20A) wiring, but not sure. I guess since they still have the thin axle, they are also limited with their wire thickness. Ironically we don't know details due to the lack of Kingsong failures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I prefer a motor without an axle and screw ports for the phases and a close by location for the motordriver(s). Would eliminate so much problems and gives room for more performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HermanTheGerman Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: BTW, I was somewhat afraid to post my experience for fear of scaring people away from Gotway. Yes, Gotway still has cable harness issues. They are far from perfect. But what happened to me occurred during a long very steep incline. 98% (I'm pulling that figure out of my butt) of EUC riders of Gotway wheels will probably never ride under the conditions that I was riding yesterday. Don't give up on Gotway folks Hmm, it will depend, e.g. on a comparison ride I'll do. After checking your track I see that your overall ascent was 317 meters with an overall descent of 180 meters on a distance of 7.8 km, where the incident happened after approximately 40 minutes riding time. The maximum incline on that distance was 27%. I mentioned in my prior posting a ride to Schweizeben, which has an ascent of 515 meters. Though these are 200 meters more in altitude difference, there is my shorter distance of only 2.5 km compared to your 7.8, and also the difference in temperature, because I believe it was quite hot during your ride, while I had around 17 Centigrade only. And I also didn't have such a long interim descent, because this may add to the temperature in the wheel while it is charging. So I will try in the next days a comparable ride to see how my KS16 reacts, and I'll also take a GPS with me to analyze the track. In any case it is very interesting to test our technology to the limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zentype Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 19 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Unfortunately no. I still need to download my GPS data so it may be embedded there. I'll post something later if I find it. What's funny (I have a strange sense of humor) is that we were testing this route for your ride when you join us in July. Needless to say, we will not be taking you on these trails Hi Marty, Just hopped on today after years of being gone. But your post immediately caught my attention since I was seriously thinking of "updating" my current stable with an ACM.. That's a real bummer... On something that isn't cheap. I haven't read the whole thread yet but hopefully you'll be able to get some decent repair service for it... Still a hassle considering what these things weigh. I'm now thinking of possibly getting a monster OR the msuper v3 because of your recent experience. On another note: I saw you and @Sven are local (!) Do you guys have room for another fellow Gotway rider join your group ride one of these weekends? I current run with an msuper2.. Which hillariously is now the "little wheel" compared to what you guys run with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Anyone notice at 5:20 the dialogue goes : Andy: "Do you see that?" Marty: "Go for it?" Andy: "Yeah sure, why not? Heh heh heh heh..." Marty: "Famous last words..." Note to self: Anytime one says "Famous Last Words" out loud, turn around immediately and head home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Ignore temperature, if it gets too high the ACM will beep and stop you anyways. Watch the current. Per spec, roughly, maximum sustainable current is 20A (old ACM and msuper V3 motors with the 16AWG wires, dunno what the Monster uses) and 30A (new motors with the 14 AWG wires) so that's a guideline. Problem is the heat not being dissipating fast enough, so the wheel gets hotter and hotter. Both cables and mosfets won't (just) blow from a higher current, but from overheating. So the key is to make breaks accordingly, to allow cooling down. If you're in the spec, you can probably go on forever. After all, fast riding (in the flat) can produce 20A and nobody reported any meltdowns just due to fast riding in the flat. If you're above spec, just make more and more breaks the higher the sustained (average, peaks don't matter) current gets. Here's some numbers that worked for me with my ACM(I have the old 20A wires): Around 15% incline gives me (80kg and with my riding style) between over 30A average (sometimes up to 40, some higher peaks, but average matters for heat), and this can be done for several minutes (3,4, even 5) without any visible heat damage (opened the wheel several times to check). Then a few minutes break, then again. More or less 1:1 riding/break time (this may be overcautious, but since there is no other way to see what is too much without stressing the wheel too much = heat damage starting, I'd rather be cautious). So even with the old wires, 30A for 4 minutes is ok. With the new wires, 40 should be good (no guarantee! Maybe the heat will collect faster in the thicker wires? Just added the 10A difference). The hill I melted my first ACM's 20A cables on (exactly like Marty) produced probably something like 50A sustainably (guessed number!), if not more. Even then, it was over 5 minutes (closer to 10) before the meltdown happened, maybe 1 or 2 minutes before that you'd have heat damage. So even 50A for a minute or two should easily be fine. I will go back to the hill and see what current it produces, as I know 2+ minutes can be done without damage and so 30s or 1 minute is enough to safely read the current there. More numbers then. So the (sad) summary is, you can only check currents on hills and see if your wheel survives. It's a bit stressful and can ruin your ride's enjoyment, but if you want to do hills, some experience which "feeling of being elevated" produces which current is needed so you can go on rides (with according breaks) later without having to always watch your current numbers religiously. Also, the steeper the hill or the heavier the rider (higher current, which is all that matters for the cabling), the faster everything happens. I don't think Marty had 5 minutes on his 25% incline. So either the ACM was pre-heated from the lesser inclines, or he had like 80A current that quickly melted everything down. TLDR: watch current, slowly build towards testing what you can safely do, and in the end, EUCs aren't ready for real mountain riding (no breaks, no second thoughts, just go) yet. Or at least the Gotways are not, maybe Kingsong would be better. That reminds me of the duty cycle for my portable wire fed welder. In the manual it says it can run for two minutes max, and then cooled down for eight minutes. 20% duty cycle. So like you said before, probably the wheel can climb steep hills for a couple of minutes, then should be allowed to cool down for about 8 minutes, then can climb again for two and so on. Maybe @Marty Backe like you said, you could probably climb that hill again with no damage if you stopped for cool down after each couple minutes climb. A built in tiltback based on load would be nice. But like you said Marty, it's the wire design that needs to be improved also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 14 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Gotway also eliminated the melting black caramel () plastic connector covers Oh Hunka, only you can make a total electrical failure seem mouth-wateringly delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 29 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Anyone notice at 5:20 the dialogue goes : Andy: "Do you see that?" Marty: "Go for it?" Andy: "Yeah sure, why not? Heh heh heh heh..." Marty: "Famous last words..." Note to self: Anytime one says "Famous Last Words" out loud, turn around immediately and head home. Yeah if there was a "Hold my beer" in there it could have been fatal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zentype Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Anyone notice at 5:20 the dialogue goes : Andy: "Do you see that?" Marty: "Go for it?" Andy: "Yeah sure, why not? Heh heh heh heh..." Marty: "Famous last words..." All recorded on video for posterity While it definitely sucked frying the wheel, I'm glad it didn't result in any serious injuries. Though for the majority of us fellow enthusiasts, I'm almost positive our first reaction after a crash is "is my wheel OK???" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 5 hours ago, FULspeed said: This kind of thing would not happen if we had a proper information about what happens in our wheel. In each of my normal means of transport (car, or motorbike, or plane) I have tools telling me if the engine works correctly (oil pressure, water temperature, voltmeter ...) why not on my wheel? Marty's failure was on the wiring harness, which should be one of the parts you just don't need to worry about. Things like wires and connectors should be properly sized so that they rarely fail and are protected/monitored by some other weak link in the path. We shouldn't need to measure everything inside the wheel because some things just shouldn't fail. Imagine if your car could get hot enough that the coolant could melt the radiator hoses before you received a temperature warning! In any design there must be something that is the weakest link. A good design should ensure that the weak link fails as softly as possible and with sufficient advance warning. The EUC makers just don't have this part figured out yet. Over the years we have seen almost every part of the EUC fail in unpredictable ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zentype Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 15 minutes ago, dmethvin said: Yeah if there was a "Hold my beer" in there it could have been fatal! haha if this happened in Florida... that would have almost definitely been in the video! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 That hill that @Marty Backe and @Sven climbed makes the Kingsong test ramp look ridiculous. I think Gotway is fine the way they are, that hill was extreme. Still. it would have been so cool to have a Kingsong 16 or 18 on that ride to see what would the Kingsong do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, steve454 said: That hill that @Marty Backe and @Sven climbed makes the Kingsong test ramp look ridiculous. I think Gotway is fine the way they are, that hill was extreme. Still. it would have been so cool to have a Kingsong 16 or 18 on that ride to see what would the Kingsong do. I agree, and that's why people shouldn't jump the Gotway ship because of my failure. &*@! happens. We need a KingKong test dummy to see if their wheel will burn up on that hill I know that my KS14C would not burn up, but it would have overheated every few minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 2 hours ago, zentype said: <snip> Though for the majority of us fellow enthusiasts, I'm almost positive our first reaction after a crash is "is my wheel OK???" That was my first thought - is my ACM OK. Sadly it wasn't Only the next day (today) does my body ache from being thrown to the ground and rolling. Another reason I always wear padding when riding trails - no bruises and scrapes today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Anyone notice at 5:20 the dialogue goes : Andy: "Do you see that?" Marty: "Go for it?" Andy: "Yeah sure, why not? Heh heh heh heh..." Marty: "Famous last words..." Note to self: Anytime one says "Famous Last Words" out loud, turn around immediately and head home. That's hilarious @Hunka Hunka Burning Love. I totally forgot that sequence. We had predicted our fate but didn't know it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 1 hour ago, zentype said: Hi Marty, Just hopped on today after years of being gone. But your post immediately caught my attention since I was seriously thinking of "updating" my current stable with an ACM.. That's a real bummer... On something that isn't cheap. I haven't read the whole thread yet but hopefully you'll be able to get some decent repair service for it... Still a hassle considering what these things weigh. I'm now thinking of possibly getting a monster OR the msuper v3 because of your recent experience. On another note: I saw you and @Sven are local (!) Do you guys have room for another fellow Gotway rider join your group ride one of these weekends? I current run with an msuper2.. Which hillariously is now the "little wheel" compared to what you guys run with Don't give up on the ACM. It's still a great wheel (my favorite), and I can't wait to get it back in working order. Learn from my experience and don't stress the wheel on excessive climbs for long durations. I have over 1400 miles on three different ACM's (sold the first two for upgrades). Today was the first failure, and only because of the hill I tackled. I also have a Monster and MSuper V3, which are great machines too. Keep an eye on the Local Groups forum. I post group rides there all the time. I just added your name to my distribution list so you should see the next announcement. We've had 7 people in one recent ride. We might break 10 this summer. Welcome back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: <snip> Ironically we don't know details due to the lack of Kingsong failures Only because nobody pushes the KingSong wheels, because they know that they aren't up for the task Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I will say that when I was into sportbikes we'd have a couple guys each season have terrible accidents. Hardly a year went by that a riding buddy didn't die, it was uncommon yet regular. I'm so glad I got into wheels as they have the feel of sportbikes but we can just laugh at Marty's misfortune, he can complain about aches the next day, and there might be the occasional injurious faceplant. Yet I don't really see the injuries I see from sportbikes and sportbikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 1 minute ago, LanghamP said: I will say that when I was into sportbikes we'd have a couple guys each season have terrible accidents. Hardly a year went by that a riding buddy didn't die, it was uncommon yet regular. I'm so glad I got into wheels as they have the feel of sportbikes but we can just laugh at Marty's misfortune, he can complain about aches the next day, and there might be the occasional injurious faceplant. Yet I don't really see the injuries I see from sportbikes and sportbikes. That's my attitude. I've yet to hear of a single fatality.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 43 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: That's my attitude. I've yet to hear of a single fatality.. Compare that to the Segway, even the company owner died. Clearly, adding wheels increases the chance of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 21 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Totally agree @KingSong69. The connector issue may be resolved, but they need a total rethink on their wiring harness design. I used to think it required a heavier person, but I'm 170 pounds, not very heavy (I think). So no more super steep hills for me. If I find myself struggling to keep any of my Gotway wheels moving, I'm going to stop and walk the wheel. Maybe in a few years this will all trickle down to Gotway and their wiring will be A+ (or maybe just A) You are such a GOTWAY kiss ass. Just be mad. They deserve your wrath. These a all well know engineering principles. Motors bigger than your car exist and for many decades and they don't burn up or melt. The issue is they have crap for engineers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 11 hours ago, DaveThomasPilot said: It's pretty simple--for a given power output, the current required is inversely proportional to the voltage. So, yes, the lower the battery voltage (or increased voltage drop through series resistance) the more current is drawn. This is true for all electric motors. That's why 240 volts is preferred for motors instead of 120 volts. It's why higher voltage is always better for driving a motor (it has to be designed for it) than lower voltages. Power = Volts * Amps. Constant power, lower voltage requires more amps. No. All wrong. Motors are special animals and although the V=I*R principles are relevant, it is not adequate to make the inferences you make. This is because a motor has inductance, capacitance and resistance. Or reluctant since and resistance. As such the calculations are different that just using a purely resistive circuit. The motor is also a generator. So when it starts to spin it generates a voltage inversely proportional to the battery voltage applied to phase-a,b,c. The controller only applies enough current to the motor coils to induce enough torque to counter the tilt angle induced by the rider. So that being said, if I am going at fixed speed, fixed wind resistance and fixed grade the amount of current through the Motor will be the same no matter if the battery volts is 80 or down to 50. so please understand motors before making stammers that are incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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