Issues about Msuper V3s+ and ACMs+

[Linnea Veteran]

Dear all GotWay users, 

We got some feedback from riders that their Msuper 3s+ and ACMs+ has cut off problem when jupm kerbs or speed up suddently. With these few days efforts to gathering motor code and do more testing with different program, we found out such problem happened in the wheels which were shipped out from our factory from May 1st, 2017 to May 15th, 2017. But most parts of this batch of wheels are sold in China mainland, and the second majority part to another distributor not in China market, but he still not sold out any wheel of this batch as the wheels are still in the jouney of sea freight. We have arranging ship out new mainboard to him to replaced the old mainboard when his stocks arrive. In this batch of wheels, we set lower limited current in program to avoid riders suffer cut off during high speed riding. Before we ship out wheels, we did tests of the mainboard, and till now we still not get any feedback about this problem in China mainland even most of these wheels were sold in China. Anyhow, we have contacted distributors who has wheels within this batch to ship them new mainboard to replace the old ones. 

Wheels that has problem in cut off in high speed is normal problem. Electric unicycles has limited speed, once reach the limited speed, it will cut off as the current burn mosfets.

Some wheels vibration after fail down, it is because wheels deformed after fail down. Vibration became more obviously when ride it in high speed. Please contact distributors to change tires to solve this problem.

Here would like to note all GotWay riders who like ride fast speed to wear protection clothes and helmet to avoid any unexpected cut off. Wish all of you would have nice riding experience with GotWay!

Thanks for all GotWay riders that support us all the time!

 

Best Regards,

Linnea

 

[Jason McNeil]

@Linnea Lin Gotway thank you for being open & transparent about this fault, this is definitely the right approach for retaining the support of your loyal Customer base. 

As discussed elsewhere, it's important for Customers to be able to check what version of firmware they're using, & if necessary, load an updated release either by USB or through the App (as King Song do). It is not cost efficient for either yourselves, the Distributor, or the Customer to be shipping out replacement control-boards if there's an update that needs applying.

Personally, I think firmware updates should ONLY be offered, if there are safety considerations. Even a company as large as Ninebot has had a chequered history with insufficiently tested firmware that results in more trouble than the benefits of the firmware update. 

Every change should also be Documented & made public, this is common practice, & will likely be a legal requirement in some countries in the near future. 

[Duf]

Although I do appreciate the post from @Linnea Lin Gotway  I am confused somewhat as what she is describing does not seem to quite match the behavior that was reported, specifically the rapid oscillation after hitting VERY small patches of uneven surfaces.  As Jason said, the inability of Gotway to address firmware related issues quickly via app updates is a big flaw and something the majority of their competitors offer.  I don't really understand why they would not want a quick way to address potentially dangerous situations like this via one button press instead of slow, expensive, and inefficient board replacement.

 

[Rehab1]

 

3 hours ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

We have arranging ship out new mainboard to him to replaced the old mainboard when his stocks arrive. In this batch of wheels, we set lower limited current in program to avoid riders suffer cut off during high speed riding. Before we ship out wheels, we did tests of the mainboard, and till now we still not get any feedback about this problem in China mainland even most of these wheels were sold in China.

@Linnea Lin GotwayThank you for reaching out to the forum. 

Is there a specific code # associated with the new main boards you mentioned that would allow GW Msuper and ACM owners to determine if their boards require updating or will this be purely a program update that we can perform ourselves? Is the problem only associated with the 84v versions? Thank you kindly!

[Jason McNeil]

Linnea tell me I narrowly dodged a bullet [again] , our Wheels where shipped a couple days after the discovery—why this information was not disseminated earlier is a bit troubling. As a result of this, I'm hiring a China agent to forensically exam every shipment coming out from both the KS & GW factories, interviewing Engineers on FW/hardware changes between batches, comparing photos, & obtaining stress testing video evidence.

"We changed new program in the batch of your wheels which shipped out on May 16th, 2017. That is we change better program in your wheels. We double check and found that you don't have any wheels which was shipped out within May the 1st, 2017 to May the 15th, 2017." 

[Duf]

3 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Linnea tell me I narrowly dodged a bullet [again] , our Wheels where shipped a couple days after the discovery—why this information was not disseminated earlier is a bit troubling. As a result of this, I'm hiring a China agent to forensically exam every shipment coming out from both the KS & GW factories, interviewing Engineers on FW/hardware changes between batches, comparing photos, & obtaining stress testing video evidence.

"We changed new program in the batch of your wheels which shipped out on May 16th, 2017. That is we change better program in your wheels. We double check and found that you don't have any wheels which was shipped out within May the 1st, 2017 to May the 15th, 2017." 

Wow talk about going above and beyond for your customers.  That is awesome Jason, thanks so much for setting the bar so high for US based EUC dealers.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Duf said:

Although I do appreciate the post from @Linnea Lin Gotway  I am confused somewhat as what she is describing does not seem to quite match the behavior that was reported, specifically the rapid oscillation after hitting VERY small patches of uneven surfaces.  As Jason said, the inability of Gotway to address firmware related issues quickly via app updates is a big flaw and something the majority of their competitors offer.  I don't really understand why they would not want a quick way to address potentially dangerous situations like this via one button press instead of slow, expensive, and inefficient board replacement.

 

We all need some answers! I just installed the new ACM 84v motor and board and am ready to take it for a test ride. I am no longer confident! Poor @Jason McNeil has a business to run. I cannot imagine what he is going through at this moment!

[Maximus]

30 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

why this information was not disseminated earlier is a bit troubling.

Agreed...can't help but wonder what other things were/are known problems with the new wheels but not yet called out by this forum...sorry for the skepticism.

33 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

I'm hiring a China agent to forensically exam every shipment coming out from both the KS & GW factories, interviewing Engineers on FW/hardware changes between batches, comparing photos, & obtaining stress testing video evidence.

Coming off of a recent wheel cutout and some recovery time, there is nothing more reassuring than hearing that your re-seller is going above and beyond to make sure that your brand new wheel will get a little extra QA to try and ensure that a second face plant is less likely , thanks @Jason McNeil!

[dalewalker]

5 hours ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Dear all GotWay users, 

We got some feedback from riders that their Msuper 3s+ and ACMs+ has cut off problem when jupm kerbs or speed up suddently. With these few days efforts to gathering motor code and do more testing with different program, we found out such problem happened in the wheels which were shipped out from our factory from May 1st, 2017 to May 15th, 2017. But most parts of this batch of wheels are sold in China mainland, and the second majority part to another distributor not in China market, but he still not sold out any wheel of this batch as the wheels are still in the jouney of sea freight. We have arranging ship out new mainboard to him to replaced the old mainboard when his stocks arrive. In this batch of wheels, we set lower limited current in program to avoid riders suffer cut off during high speed riding. Before we ship out wheels, we did tests of the mainboard, and till now we still not get any feedback about this problem in China mainland even most of these wheels were sold in China. Anyhow, we have contacted distributors who has wheels within this batch to ship them new mainboard to replace the old ones. 

Wheels that has problem in cut off in high speed is normal problem. Electric unicycles has limited speed, once reach the limited speed, it will cut off as the current burn mosfets.

Some wheels vibration after fail down, it is because wheels deformed after fail down. Vibration became more obviously when ride it in high speed. Please contact distributors to change tires to solve this problem.

Here would like to note all GotWay riders who like ride fast speed to wear protection clothes and helmet to avoid any unexpected cut off. Wish all of you would have nice riding experience with GotWay!

Thanks for all GotWay riders that support us all the time!

 

Best Regards,

Linnea

 

Im a bit worried with this diagnosis of this problem being that it was set at a lower limit and that is what caused the cut outs because half of the cut outs were at a low speeds even an airwheel can achieve. 

I have a feeling its not over yet

[Maximus]

1 minute ago, dalewalker said:

I have a feeling its not over yet

Which is exactly why I feel so good about purchasing from ewheels...at least those of us who purchased there will get some additional piece of mind that QA has actually been done.

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

Im a bit worried with this diagnosis of this problem being that it was set at a lower limit and that is what caused the cut outs because half of the cut outs were at a low speeds even an airwheel can achieve. 

I have a feeling its not over yet

I agree that the Gotway description of the root cause of the problem seems strange, but I suspect it's the English translation. At the very beginning they do re-state the original problem correctly so I think they understand the issue - we just don't understand what they were doing with their mods.

This is a clear demonstration on why it's not good (or it's risky) to buy grey market wheels. Best to buy from a reputable dealer that has some level of direct communications with the factory.

But yeah, this means I can enjoy my new wheel without worries 

[dalewalker]

2 minutes ago, Maximus said:

Which is exactly why I feel so good about purchasing from ewheels...at least those of us who purchased there will get some additional piece of mind that QA has actually been done.

And pay through the nose for it too by the sounds of it.

I think its a bunch of un nessesary wank. If people stopped trying to defend gotways reputation to protect there investments all the time and were up front about these issues like i am gotway would have had no choice but to adress there below standard opperating and get there act together before this happened where several people got badly unjured.

Why spend a heap of money on this wank when the customer will be the one  paying for it through inflated prices.

Make gotway accaountable for there unprofessional business and make them sort there shit out otherwise there business will suffer along with there reputation.

 

The facts are if they listened when i was trying  to warn them then these people wouldn't be injured and ewheels customers wouldn't be paying extra for a service that shouldnt be needed in the 1st place.

If it wasnt for dealers trying to protect there investment by talking gotway up as "the best brand' when its far from the best in every aspect including how the compants run. 

I dont pay people to do the factorys job for them and add the cost onto my wheel prices.

I get my customers the best wheels at the best prices and if they have a problem i sort it out.

I recommend kingsong to my customers because i know how much better kingsongs safety and pre testing is over gotways rushed out products.

If the customer stil choses gotway then they have made the choice to take a chance on a brand they wer warned about.

Its up to the factorys to do these things to save there reputation and is not an un nessesary outside cost that the customer wina up paying

[RichieV]

@Linnea Lin Gotway mentioned that mainland Chinese costumers don't seem to be having this problem.  Is there a Chinese forum similar to ours where EUC enthusiasts can discuss related matters?  If so I would think that they, like us, would discuss safety related issues such as what we're currently perceiving.

Come to think of it, other non-English EUC forums should also see similar traffic.  Is that the case?  I sometimes go over to http://espritroue.fr which is a French language EUC forum and try to feed my EUC info addiction with my rudimentary French skills and Google translate; this issue isn't being discussed there from what I can see.

Perhaps it's worth trying to consolidate global chatter regarding EUCs to get a better sense of the scale of this problem as well as other/future problems.  Do you guys know of other non-English forums that are widely trafficked?

[Maximus]

2 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

I dont pay people to do the factorys job for them and add the cost onto my wheel prices.

I think you are making an assumption here about passing the cost onto the customer.  It may be a fair assumption, but my only point was that I paid a good price for a product that I thought was safe.  At the time of my purchase, the only problem that was known was that the gauge wires were too small in the new 84v wheels and I was under the impression that the new batch had resolved this.

4 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

I recommend kingsong to my customers because i know how much better kingsongs safety and pre testing is over gotways rushed out products

I agree that KingSong has a reputation for quality, and while it may be well deserved, I just had a cutout (my first) on a new (to me) KS-14C...my very first ride, doing the exact same things that I had done a thousand times before on my Inmotion V8...so let's not get too carried away with how great KS wheels are.

As I said in your other thread, if I were making a purchase decision today, I may be choosing the KS-16S instead, but my hope is that the net result of all of this attention on the Gotway wheels will be a better quality product.  My fingers are definitely crossed 

[dalewalker]

3 minutes ago, RichieV said:

@Linnea Lin Gotway mentioned that mainland Chinese costumers don't seem to be having this problem.  Is there a Chinese forum similar to ours where EUC enthusiasts can discuss related matters?  If so I would think that they, like us, would discuss safety related issues such as what we're currently perceiving.

Come to think of it, other non-English-speaking EUC forums should also see similar traffic.  Is that the case?  I sometimes go over to http://espritroue.fr which is a French language EUC forum and try to feed my EUC info addiction with my rudimentary French skills and Google translate; this issue isn't being discussed there from what I can see.

Perhaps it's worth trying to consolidate global chatter regarding EUCs to get a better sense of the scale of this problem as well as other/future problems.  Do you guys know of other non-English forums that are widely trafficked?

 Its probably not being discussed there because its us that made the problem known. Gotway didnt inform us there getting alot of faulty wheels.

The only one of my customers effected by this problem already had his replacement board when all these people were badly injured and he wasnt the only one sent a replacement board by that stage so gotway DID KNOW there was a potential threat of injury caused by this issue before these people were hurt.

Im assuming they were just treating it like all there other faults and only replacing parts on the wheels that do fail and keeping it quietto avoid a very expensive product recall

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

And pay through the nose for it too by the sounds of it.

I think its a bunch of un nessesary wank. If people stopped trying to defend gotways reputation to protect there investments all the time and were up front about these issues like i am gotway would have had no choice but to adress there below standard opperating and get there act together before this happened where several people got badly unjured.

Why spend a heap of money on this wank when the customer will be the one  paying for it through inflated prices.

Make gotway accaountable for there unprofessional business and make them sort there shit out otherwise there business will suffer along with there reputation.

 

The facts are if they listened when i was trying  to warn them then these people wouldn't be injured and ewheels customers wouldn't be paying extra for a service that shouldnt be needed in the 1st place.

If it wasnt for dealers trying to protect there investment by talking gotway up as "the best brand' when its far from the best in every aspect including how the compants run. 

I dont pay people to do the factorys job for them and add the cost onto my wheel prices.

I get my customers the best wheels at the best prices and if they have a problem i sort it out.

I recommend kingsong to my customers because i know how much better kingsongs safety and pre testing is over gotways rushed out products.

If the customer stil choses gotway then they have made the choice to take a chance on a brand they wer warned about.

Its up to the factorys to do these things to save there reputation and is not an un nessesary outside cost that the customer wina up paying

I can only speak to the American market, but when I look at the various dealer prices they all seem comparable, give or take. I don't see any evidence of inflated prices.

There is something called service, which does not come for free. Some people enjoy and appreciate the benefits that come from a dealer (and I'm not just talking about EWheels) that provides great service, and we understand that there's a cost associated with that service. For people who want to buy the cheapest (cost) wheel they can find, then they will go direct to China to bypass the inflated prices. But those people need to understand that they are on their own.

This is not specific to EUCs. Buy a grey market Canon lens and then try and get service later. You're out of luck.

And I see little evidence that dealers are pushing Gotway wheels. I think it's the other way around. There's a fervent community of Gotway users that are agitating for newer wheels, etc. The dealers see all of this enthusiasm and then decide to sell Gotway because that's what customers want.

There have been a handful of wheels exhibiting this new problem. I just don't see the sky as falling. Everything will work itself out and people will continue to enjoy their Gotway wheels. Let me know when KingSong sells a wheel that can perform like the ACM, MSuper, or Monster. I actually would welcome that day (I do also ride a KS14C and love it) because real competition is the best means to achieving better products in the market place. But until that day comes my primary wheels will continue to be Gotway.

[dalewalker]

I sell both kingsong and gotway and i make a fair bit more off gotway sales than i do on kingsong sales but im not going to hide my feelings on these issues just because i make more money if my customer buy's a gotway when the truth is i wouldnt buy a gotway for someone i really care about because i dont want them to be one of the unfortunate ones that is injured because of gotways poor prw testing

[Jason McNeil]

20 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

And pay through the nose for it too by the sounds of it.

That's interesting Dale. Your prices are quite a bit higher than mine for the same products. Let's examine the KS16S, converted to USD you have it for $1600USD without any fast-charger or other options. We're offering the same Wheel with a $120 fast-charger for $1475. You might want to consider before making certain assumptions.

https://www.thewheeldeal.net.au/ks16s.html

21 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

I recommend kingsong to my customers because i know how much better kingsongs safety and pre testing is over gotways rushed out products.

How do you know Dale? How many times have you visited China? Been to any of the factories? Interviewed the Engineers? Besides riding the Wheel, do you do any testing yourself with a datalogger or thermal camera? Do you have any hard statistics on what the defect rate really is in large volumes? How many Wheels have you sold? From your interview in Australia, I think you said it was 15 total? Is that a sufficiently large number to make a categorical pronouncement? 

27 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

Its up to the factorys to do these things to save there reputation and is not an un nessesary outside cost that the customer wina up paying

Yes Dale, but we are intelligent beings given the powers to set our own destinies. If you were better familiar with Business in that part of the world, having an agent inspect product is not very exceptional. 

[dalewalker]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I can only speak to the American market, but when I look at the various dealer prices they all seem comparable, give or take. I don't see any evidence of inflated prices.

There is something called service, which does not come for free. Some people enjoy and appreciate the benefits that come from a dealer (and I'm not just talking about EWheels) that provides great service, and we understand that there's a cost associated with that service. For people who want to buy the cheapest (cost) wheel they can find, then they will go direct to China to bypass the inflated prices. But those people need to understand that they are on their own.

This is not specific to EUCs. Buy a grey market Canon lens and then try and get service later. You're out of luck.

And I see little evidence that dealers are pushing Gotway wheels. I think it's the other way around. There's a fervent community of Gotway users that are agitating for newer wheels, etc. The dealers see all of this enthusiasm and then decide to sell Gotway because that's what customers want.

There have been a handful of wheels exhibiting this new problem. I just don't see the sky as falling. Everything will work itself out and people will continue to enjoy their Gotway wheels. Let me know when KingSong sells a wheel that can perform like the ACM, MSuper, or Monster. I actually would welcome that day (I do also ride a KS14C and love it) because real competition is the best means to achieving better products in the market place. But until that day comes my primary wheels will continue to be Gotway.

You wont find 1 customer of mine thats not happy with my service and im one of the cheapest on the planet.

I give my customers a good range of wheels to chose from, all the HONEST information they want, great prices, and i resolve any problems they may get thats covered by warranty.

They always get fresh batterys too because i dont have 50 sitting in my garage aging and there warranty starts when they buy there wheel not when the dealer bought the stock.

My customers have all been happy with my service and they didnt have to pay through the nose for it. 1 customer has already bought 3 wheels off me and i haven't even been going a year yet.

Another customers  even gave me 50 euro for my birthday he WA as so happy with my service.

So no.. good service doesnt cost more.

Every part of the dealers business expences ends up as part of the price to the customers otherwise youd lose money and i dont think its nessesary to pay for things that arent needed if its going to bring the customers price up.

My business cost me $20 a month to run and its because of that my customers get a great deal

I even spend alot of time trying to help other people's customers at no benifit to myself because they come to me for advise because they know there not going to be bullshitted.

[Mono]

7 hours ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Wheels that has problem in cut off in high speed is normal problem.

So sad.

[dalewalker]

I only had 1 customer effected by this problem but it was stil me posting on my fb page and in my group warning about the issue and sharing it through the euc communitys that people actually know about it.

Gotway werent going to tell.

 

The difference with me is im not in the business for the money, im in it because im passionate about euc and i want everyone to be able to experience these marvelous wheels that changed my life for the better.

My motive is for the greater good and not motivated by my wallet. I have nothing to gain by this unless gotway start making better quality better tested wheels as a result.

I gain from that happening by my customers being safer

[vladmarks]

"I'm just an observer" type of comment below. So if you feel like quoting anything of this and replying "you don't know crap", you're totally right in advance, please don't waste your emotional energy.

It does seem that Gotway is going a bit more aggressive while trying to serve the speed-hungry market segment. This aggression in the recent releases had to backfire at some point, cause you can't make a step up this drastic without the strong backing of QC. You're just simply increasing the speed limit at which the accident may happen. What surprises me is that several Gotway owners I spoke to actually keep in mind the risks of inherently faulty mechanics and buy into it anyway. 

Of course there is no clear way to compare and benchmark brand's reliability to others without cross-inspecting products in large volumes. Yet, I hardly see a Kingsong owner going "my wheel tipped off at maximum speed", not to mention Inmotion. Gotway is all over this forum - mosfet issues, motor issues, pcb issues. If I were a small dealer, I wouldn't for a second think putting my eggs near Gotway's basket simply based off the feedback. Nor would I get agents in China to run errands, cause statistically they would provide data closely correlated with customer feedback.

Mainly cause of that Gotway has to step up their game in terms of sourcing and QC in general, as the majority of the market consists of such dealers who can be knocked down on their feet after a single customer accident.

[LanghamP]

7 minutes ago, vladmarks said:

It does seem that Gotway is going a bit more aggressive while trying to serve the speed-hungry market segment. This aggression in the recent releases had to backfire at some point, cause you can't make a step up this drastic without the strong backing of QC. You're just simply increasing the speed limit at which the accident may happen. What surprises me is that several Gotway owners I spoke to actually keep in mind the risks of inherently faulty mechanics and buy into it anyway.

Is this why Gotway is so popular in Russia? 

People who want fast wheels buy Gotways. Gotways attract those riders, same way people who buy sportbikes have an inkling they want fast. High performance costs.

That's why I never considered, and probably won't consider, buying a Gotway for some time, as that style of riding doesn't attract me. I'd prefer to cruise half on and half off the sidewalk, averaging 8-10 mph, faster than jogging but slower than a bicycle.

But that also doesn't mean I don't respect Gotway; I certainly do not want them punished or put out of business. And, frankly, with this new technology, I see them working responsibly to address problems as they come up. I liken wheels to the 1930's Golden Age of Aviation whereby the basic technology was understood but the real work of making flight high-performance and safe(er) was being done.

I'd say at this stage of the game you really need a local mechanic on the ground. I say that despite owning two wheels where one is a grey-market (gotway with no problems so far) and the other is a "as is" closeout wheel. Expect there to be lots of bugs in this experimental technology and dress accordingly, although I personally often wear no protection at all.

I suspect riders here would be a lot better off emotionally and mentally if they treated their wheels like wives; at any time for any or no reason it may cut out on you with little to no warning. That's why it's best to own several wheels.

 

[Sketch]

I've purchased 4 wheels from Jason at ewheels and I have experienced nothing but outstanding service.  He has gone way over and beyond to make me happy as a customer.  I hate reading comments trying to tear down his character saying he is just selling Gotways or any wheel for the money.  If you read the many posts from him on this forum you will find that he has been an advocate for EUC riders and has pressed companies like Kingsong and Inmotion to make changes for the safety of the riders.  Many of the safety characteristics raved about in Kingsongs was from Jason's constant input over the last couple of years. I'm glad to see ewheels selling Gotways now so maybe we can see the benefits of his tireless efforts in improving the QC at this company as well.

We all love riding wheels and we all want to be safe of course.  Let's keep our focus and efforts on pushing these companies to make the right improvements.

 

[houseofjob]

@dalewalker Think you should stop now, you're only making yourself and your store look bad.

 

Many of us on here who have experienced @Jason McNeil's exemplary service via eWheels.com & WheelGo.com know he goes above and beyond just being a seller; he proves he truly cares about the betterment of EUC and EUC culture in general, when other EUC middle-men distributors leave you in the dust post-purchase.

Jason helped me with my KS18A issues when I hadn't even purchased a single thing from him, let alone the KS18. Through my many subsequent purchases through him, I've only experienced the same A+ service, nothing less.

I don't know what level of dealer you are, and you might be an excellent one, but your posts do not reflect this when you go after such a highly vetted, highly regarded contributor / distributor on these forums.