Oscillation and cut out problem with Gotway MSuper V3, ACM, maybe Monster shipped from May 2017 onwards

[edwin_rm]

Here an image of my Monster, with factory QC date of 12 May 2017. Does anything look off?

(I have had no problem riding, but it has been riden only 9km as of this message's date)

 

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, edwin_rm said:

Here an image of my Monster, with factory QC date of 12 May 2017. Does anything look off?

(I have had no problem riding, but it has been riden only 9km as of this message's date)

 

I don't have the Monster memorized so I can't say. Are you posting it on this thread because you're concerned about the oscillation/cut-out problems?

If so, no Monsters have been cited as having this problem, and Gotway has only put out alerts regarding the ACM and MSuper. I would imagine that you're fine.

And to be clear, even if it had the problem, the failure mechanism is in the firmware so there's nothing to see.

[edwin_rm]

30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't have the Monster memorized so I can't say. Are you posting it on this thread because you're concerned about the oscillation/cut-out problems?

If so, no Monsters have been cited as having this problem, and Gotway has only put out alerts regarding the ACM and MSuper. I would imagine that you're fine.

And to be clear, even if it had the problem, the failure mechanism is in the firmware so there's nothing to see.

Just making sure every piece is where it is suppossed to be. And yeah, these recent Gotway happenings have cause quite the panic amongst the euc community, so therefore, I express my paranoia by uploading that photo. ?

Edited June 27, 2017 by edwin_rm
grammar

[esaj]

41 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't have the Monster memorized so I can't say. Are you posting it on this thread because you're concerned about the oscillation/cut-out problems?

If so, no Monsters have been cited as having this problem, and Gotway has only put out alerts regarding the ACM and MSuper. I would imagine that you're fine.

And to be clear, even if it had the problem, the failure mechanism is in the firmware so there's nothing to see.

Well, one thing's for sure after seeing that picture: Monster, ACM and MSuper all share the same board (maybe with some slight component changes, but otherwise that's exactly the same board as Rehab1's dead ACM board he sent me). So probably also the firmware code base is the same, which could potentially mean that NEW (post end-of-April) Monsters could also be affected. I'm still leaving the "maybe Monster" in the topic name...

EDIT: I was under the impression that Gotway was using TO-247's in Monsters, but those are the same TO-220's as in the ACM. I also bet that those are the exact same IRFB4110's as in ACMs and MSupers. So looks like KingSong (KS16S, IRFP4368) and Rockwheel GT16 (IRFP4110, TO-247 -version of the Gotway mosfets) are the only ones using heavy-duty mosfets..?

Not that heavier gauge mosfets would help with melting wires and firmware bugs...

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by esaj

[Marty Backe]

11 minutes ago, esaj said:

Well, one thing's for sure after seeing that picture: Monster, ACM and MSuper all share the same board (maybe with some slight component changes, but otherwise that's exactly the same board as Rehab1's dead ACM board he sent me). So probably also the firmware code base is the same, which could potentially mean that NEW (post end-of-April) Monsters could also be affected. I'm still leaving the "maybe Monster" in the topic name...

EDIT: I was under the impression that Gotway was using TO-247's in Monsters, but those are the same TO-220's as in the ACM. So looks like KingSong (KS16S) and Rockwheel GT16 are the only ones using heavy-duty mosfets. I also bet that those are the exact same IRFB4110's as in ACMs and MSupers.

Unfortunately you may be correct 

In this active thread @Demian B reports that his Monster has the MSuper board (if you believe the sticker):

What a mess 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

18 minutes ago, edwin_rm said:

Just making sure every piece is where it is suppossed to be. And yeah, these recent Gotway happenings have cause quite the panic amongst the euc community, so therefore, I express my paranoia by uploading that photo. ?

On the positive side, your board is stamped March. If that represents when the firmware was installed then you would be good. However, we really don't understand how Gotway is configuration managed.

[esaj]

9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Unfortunately you may be correct 

In this active thread @Demian B reports that his Monster has the MSuper board (if you believe the sticker):

Ah, I read it through earlier, but missed that detail. I can see the cost-benefit point of making only a single board instead of two or three different ones, and like has been stated before, we aren't seeing boards blowing up left and right, so it's probably not that big of an issue. But it does have it's problems, like a tired worker doing an 12-hour shift or whatever, and mistakenly placing the wrong board on a wheel, as they all look the same... although I'd expect they at the very least try that the wheel turns on and balances before shipping it off

Likely it's the exact same board on every wheel, and the firmware's the same, only certain parameters are changed to match the motor inductances and other parameters. One of those parameters could be the current limit (if that's what is actually causing the bug), so it might be correct in Monsters and wrong in ACMs/MSupers.

Edited June 27, 2017 by esaj

[Marty Backe]

21 minutes ago, esaj said:

Well, one thing's for sure after seeing that picture: Monster, ACM and MSuper all share the same board (maybe with some slight component changes, but otherwise that's exactly the same board as Rehab1's dead ACM board he sent me). So probably also the firmware code base is the same, which could potentially mean that NEW (post end-of-April) Monsters could also be affected. I'm still leaving the "maybe Monster" in the topic name...

EDIT: I was under the impression that Gotway was using TO-247's in Monsters, but those are the same TO-220's as in the ACM. I also bet that those are the exact same IRFB4110's as in ACMs and MSupers. So looks like KingSong (KS16S, IRFP4368) and Rockwheel GT16 (IRFP4110, TO-247 -version of the Gotway mosfets) are the only ones using heavy-duty mosfets..?

Not that heavier gauge mosfets would help with melting wires and firmware bugs...

 

I want to add that I'm dubious that the firmware is the same. Wouldn't the wheel diameter require changes if nothing else but for the speed calibration. Also, the Monster has fans which turn on at 43 degrees. But when @Rehab1 tested his "fan port" on the ACM board it did not activate. This leads me to believe that they use the same hardware but flash different firmware based on the wheel.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Marty Backe

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, esaj said:

Ah, I read it through earlier, but missed that detail. I can see the cost-benefit point of making only a single board instead of two or three different ones, and like has been stated before, we aren't seeing boards blowing up left and right, so it's probably not that big of an issue. But it does have it's problems, like a tired worker doing an 12-hour shift or whatever, and mistakenly placing the wrong board on a wheel, as they all look the same... although I'd expect they at the very least try that the wheel turns on and balances before shipping it off

Likely it's the exact same board on every wheel, and the firmware's the same, only certain parameters are changed to match the motor inductances and other parameters. One of those parameters could be the current limit (if that's what is actually causing the bug), so it might be correct in Monsters and wrong in ACMs/MSupers.

Wouldn't it be sooo nice if someone from Gotway could drop in here and answer these basic questions without giving away any trade secrets? We can dream...

Edited June 27, 2017 by Marty Backe

[esaj]

11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I want to add that I'm dubious that the firmware is the same. Wouldn't the wheel diameter require changes if nothing else but for the speed calibration. Also, the Monster has fans which turn on at 43 degrees. But when @Rehab1 tested his "fan port" on the ACM board it did not activate. Them leads me to believe that they use the same hardware but flash different firmware based on the wheel.

Well, you probably saw my earlier post already, but what I mean by "same code base" is that the basic code driving the wheel functions is the same, but they have different builds of the same firmware where certain parameters of the firmware are changed to match each different wheel (ACM, MSuper, Monster, might be also different for 67V vs. 84V). Call it "configuration"?

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Wouldn't it be sooo nice if someone from Gotway could drop in here and these basic questions without giving away any trade secrets? We can dream...

Yeah, one can dream... Someone actually posted a shop selling Firewheel-boards (or clones of them, although apparently Firewheel board is a clone of SBU ), and the shop also mentioned that they have the firmware source code available. Didn't contact them myself (at least yet, I've got my hands full right now with all my own stuff already ), but might try in the future. It's no Gotway/KS/Inmotion/whatever-big-name firmware, but it would be interesting to see a more "professional" firmware without having to just guess how they're made. Of course it could also be that the big-names use totally different algorithms for driving the motor and calculating the balancing loop.

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by esaj

[MaxLinux]

On 6/24/2017 at 1:20 PM, Pingouin said:

Gotway doesn't get better, in 2015 the first 680Wh MCM2 was a revolution, and there weren't any major issues,

MSuper 2 is another great option. It's cheaper than MSuper 3 and avoids the MSuper 3 problems. I've had mine for a month so far with zero problems and huge amounts of enjoyment.

[MaxLinux]

On 6/25/2017 at 3:27 AM, em1barns said:

given that cutoffs described happened within 2 miles of usage, how the heck is Gotway testing their changes? Are they even testing it at all? Do they only use a bench? Testing should include several thousand miles usage in real and varied conditions.

This has been a glaring shortcoming of Gotway for a long time. It's hard to believe this company operates with such minimal testing, but that's what the evidence seems to show.

[Tomek]

9 hours ago, esaj said:

Well, you probably saw my earlier post already, but what I mean by "same code base" is that the basic code driving the wheel functions is the same, but they have different builds of the same firmware where certain parameters of the firmware are changed to match each different wheel (ACM, MSuper, Monster, might be also different for 67V vs. 84V). Call it "configuration"?

looks to me like some gotway engineer was tweaking the PID parameters to solve some (marginal) issue, solved it, but by accident introduced another (much more grave) issue causing oscillations. perhaps they only tested it with featherweight riders? I'm also sure GW downplaying the bug and not communicating about it is their tactic to avoid costs of recalling hundreds of units and minimise reputation loss, albeit IMO it has the opposite effect.

9 hours ago, esaj said:

Yeah, one can dream... Someone actually posted a shop selling Firewheel-boards (or clones of them, although apparently Firewheel board is a clone of SBU ), and the shop also mentioned that they have the firmware source code available. Didn't contact them myself (at least yet, I've got my hands full right now with all my own stuff already ), but might try in the future. It's no Gotway/KS/Inmotion/whatever-big-name firmware, but it would be interesting to see a more "professional" firmware without having to just guess how they're made. Of course it could also be that the big-names use totally different algorithms for driving the motor and calculating the balancing loop.

Give @lizardmech and @electric_vehicle_lover few more months and (if things move at the current pace) there will be two awesome open source alternatives .')

 

[WaveCut]

Biggest russian EUC dealer (which you may remember by funny translated to english but good quality EUC reviews - @EcoDrift) announces recall campaign on most ACM, ACMs+, Msuper v3s+ sold since 29 of April 2017. Dates of production starts from 20 April 2017. EcoDrift will return devices after replacement boards will be installed.

Here you can see no connection between motor sn/s and production dates, as we assumed earlier.

Date of shipment	Production date	Model	Color	Battery	Motor code
4/29/17	170427026	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306273
4/29/17	170427025	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306266
4/29/17	170421009	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170213160
4/29/17	170421012	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ161022188
4/29/17	170427022	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306121
4/29/17	170427023	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306176
4/29/17	170420026	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170213141
4/29/17	170427021	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306170
4/29/17	170427024	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306270
4/29/17	170420027	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170213122
4/29/17	170427027	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306312
4/29/17	170421011	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ161022097
4/29/17	170421010	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ161022164
4/29/17	170427017	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306222
4/29/17	170427015	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306286
4/29/17	170427014	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306281
4/29/17	170427013	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306303
4/29/17	170427011	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306309
4/29/17	170427009	ACMs+	B	1300	170405917HB
4/29/17	170427008	ACMs+	B	1300	170405918HB
4/29/17	170427005	ACMs+	B	1300	170405939HB
4/29/17	170427006	ACMs+	B	1300	170405907HB
4/29/17	170427007	ACMs+	B	1300	170405926HB
4/29/17	170427001	ACM	B	820	170405895HB
4/29/17	170427002	ACM	B	820	170405988HB
4/29/17	170427003	ACM	B	820	170405900HB
4/29/17	170427004	ACM	B	820	170405979HB
5/5/17	170427012	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306316
5/5/17	170427010	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306261
5/5/17	170427016	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306319
5/5/17	170427018	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306174
5/5/17	170427019	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306189
5/5/17	170505004	Msuper3	B	0	QJ170419386
5/11/17	170510042	ACMs+	B	1600	170500123HB
5/15/17	170512025	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170419428
5/15/17	170512027	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170419421
5/15/17	170512026	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170419472
5/15/17	170512023	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170306279
5/15/17	170512024	Msuper3s+	B	1600	QJ170419479
5/15/17	170513016	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170419438
5/15/17	170513022	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170419388
5/15/17	170513020	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170306280
5/15/17	170513021	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170419409
5/15/17	170513018	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ161022158
5/15/17	170513017	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170419414
5/15/17	170513013	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ161022136
5/15/17	170513019	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170419430
5/15/17	170513015	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170419445
5/15/17	170513014	Msuper3s+	Blue	1600	QJ170419440

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by WaveCut

[meepmeepmayer]

40 minutes ago, WaveCut said:

Dates of production starts from 20 April 2017.

Do we know that wheels from before this date are good (because the firmware update didn't exist yet then)? Do you have more information on this?

[WaveCut]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Do we know that wheels from before this date are good (because the firmware update didn't exist yet then)? Do you have more information on this?

I'll try to find out details of campaign and will update this thread then.

[meepmeepmayer]

Thank you! I'm trying to get a "you're safe before this date" kind of information to narrow down which wheels are maybe affected and which are definitely not.

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

6 hours ago, WaveCut said:

I'll try to find out details of campaign and will update this thread then.

@WaveCut if you can forward, tell gotway to figure out how to identify good and bad firmware.  And then gotway somehow should be able to notify all the registered wheels via their app. 

[Jason McNeil]

Gotway sent us this 'Downloader' tool yesterday. The accompanying instructions are essentially:

1. Disconnect power & discharge the capacitors
2. Remove the BT module & connect the 'Downloader' to this interface
3. Choose the board's configuration ACM/MSuper/Monster, voltage & resistors—there are two types, a R001 & 0m50, this latter is the new board type & uses v9 of the firmware, R001 loads v8.
4. After the firmware is loaded, the Wheels needs to be calibrated & that's it!

I've got about 40 of these that need this operation. Catching an early morning flight tomorrow morning to get this started on this project. Predicting I'll be quite the Expert by the time I reach the 40th Wheel... Thanks Gotway 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Jason McNeil

[Jason McNeil]

Chatting with @Vincent Bourdeau about the impact in France, seems that the French GW Distributor already had the Downloader tool, so the situation there was mostly contained.

Obviously it's an embarrassing episode for GW, but the worst of it was the lack of transparency & openness during the debacle. The information was bound to come out, why not be frank about it? When it comes to bad news about faults/defects, there's a general tendency towards wishful thinking, even when the evidence is so palpable that it smacks you in the face.

[meepmeepmayer]

Yea they really thought they could replace boards of people when they crash and that's it...

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Gotway sent us this 'Downloader' tool yesterday. The accompanying instructions are essentially:

1. Disconnect power & discharge the capacitors
2. Remove the BT module & connect the 'Downloader' to this interface
3. Choose the board's configuration ACM/MSuper/Monster, voltage & resistors—there are two types, a R001 & 0m50, this latter is the new board type & uses v9 of the firmware, R001 loads v8.
4. After the firmware is loaded, the Wheels needs to be calibrated & that's it!

I've got about 40 of these that need this operation. Catching an early morning flight tomorrow morning to get this started on this project. Predicting I'll be quite the Expert by the time I reach the 40th Wheel... Thanks Gotway 

 

 

 

 

Wow, what a pain. It was bad enough that you have to open each wheel, but to remove the Bluetooth module too? With all the silicon (or whatever that gunk is) applied across the module to hold it in place that's going to be a very time consuming operation. I really feel for you Jason.

I have my new armored wrist guards arriving in the next day so I'll be able to test my 'new' wheel with more confidence after you fix it 

[Sven]

I'll help you!! @Jason McNeil, so i can be semi expert for free!? was there a hidden gotway programming that can up the performance? Maybe enough to conquer the park in chino hills? 

[Jason McNeil]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow, what a pain.

I have my new armored wrist guards arriving in the next day so I'll be able to test my 'new' wheel with more confidence after you fix it 

Piece of cake, we'll have the process down to 5 min a Wheel  

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, Jason McNeil said:

Piece of cake, we'll have the process down to 5 min a Wheel  

I'm bringing my stopwatch...

Hey, on a totally unrelated note, I bumped into two new riders today, in the 'wild'. I was riding on the beach trail near Hermosa Beach with my KS14C and I came across a young couple wheeling on the trail. They were pretty new to everything. Brian and Kim were their names. We talked for awhile and hopefully they will join the forum (knew nothing about it) and some of our local group rides. She was riding one of the two wheeled Inmotion wheels that they bought from you (I gave them your card, when I discovered they already knew you).

See, it's spreading more and more