Self Defence Options when EUC Riding

[RooEUC]

In light of recent threads in which our friends here on the forum have been attacked, robbed, assaulted, threatened or pushed off their EUCs, I am starting to think more about what our options are for protecting ourselves from attack when riding our electric unicycles.  It's a sad state that we live in a world where the words "protecting ourselves from attack when riding our electric unicycles" is even a serious statement.  But it's a reality.  We have progressed technologically to the point of clean, silent, self-balancing personal transport while still being surrounded by cavemen who can only steal, beat and insult their way through life.  It's astounding. 

There are scumbags out there and there is always a small possibility, even when walking, that we may encounter some of them one day.  When riding an attention-grabbing, jealousy-provoking, self-balancing wheel from the future, that risk goes up.  In the U.S. a considerable number of attackers will be armed with guns and a considerable number of potential victims will try to defend themselves with their own guns (or at least fantasize that they will be able to in a real life gun point attack).  And so that is quite a different environment there.  In Canada, Australia, many Asian countries, and many European countries, guns are much more rare and so most attackers will come at us with just fists, knives or bats.  

So what are our real life options?  I am starting to think outside the usual proposals of learning self defence, carrying pepper spray (or dog spray), carrying a retractable baton (illegal where I am).  Here are some ideas to get started.  They are not all great ideas, just ideas.  I would like to hear your ideas, especially 'outside the box' suggestions.

1. Carrying one or two of those sound grenades that make a really loud bang when activated and thrown, to scare the attackers (they may think they are being shot at) and buy time to get away or to strike them if there's only one or two guys. 

2. Carrying a rod of thick dowel in a back pack for the purposes of recalibrating our EUCs mid-ride by hanging the EUC from the dowel between two large branches.  And if an attack happens, that dowel comes in useful for un-planned self defensive purposes.

3. Wearing motorcycle gloves with carbon fibre knuckle protectors so that if you have to get into hand to hand combat you have an advantage by protecting your fists.

4. Wearing a knife-proof vest.

5. Installing a GPS tracker in the EUC, letting them steal it and our other valuables, then tracking them with the assistance of the police to apprehend them and get our property back.

 

[kour]

9 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

5. Installing a GPS tracker in the EUC, letting them steal it and our other valuables, then tracking them with the assistance of the police to apprehend them and get our property back.

i like that idea..

you could combine these and keep it in your pocket, too:

    

[kasenutty]

I don't know about you guys, but the only way I've been able to feel safe is to shoot everyone who crosses my path. Just in case. 

[Snurre]

Hm. Maybe I'm sticking my neck out but nature provided us with bigger brains to an advantage over other animals(!) so I would say that this is your best weapon: choose wisely your time, place and modus operandi for riding. Our ancestors experienced this some 60,000 years ago when walking through leopard territory but it still holds true when moving through certain human habitats.

I'm also curious: are these threats something that just affects EUC riders or could it happen to anyone on roller-blades, skateboards or bikes?

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

Maybe just dont worry. let it go. its not worth it. No one will steal. to easy to trace. motor serial number and such, looks, scrapes are like finger prints. take picture of the scrapes and you can identified later on.

If some one wants it, let them take it and run and scream as hard and fast as possible.

You can catch them later.

Just now, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

Maybe just dont worry. let it go. its not worth it. No one will steal. to easy to trace. motor serial number and such, looks, scrapes are like finger prints. take picture of the scrapes and you can identified later on.

If some one wants it, let them take it and run and scream as hard and fast as possible.

You can catch them later. Wear a body CAM, let them take the wheel and run away.

 

[LanghamP]

I wear heavy flat rings on the first two knuckles of my left hand, as my left hook as an orthodox boxer is by far my best shot.

Basically legal knuckledusters, and no one considers those weapons, can wear them all the time, and you won't hurt yourself throwing it unlike if you did with bare knuckles.

I would recommend bowing and scrapping, being craven, running if possible, but always looking to land the knockout shot from the ambush. You're not trying to kill him but rather just get him out of there quick as you can.

Heavy metal rings would do the job.

[Dingfelder]

TLDR: at bottom

1.  HOW WILL IT LOOK TO THE COURTS?

When it comes to legal repercussions, it's important to not look like you are someone who had an advantage or was spoiling for a fight.  In that regard, even if you are only equipped for rabbit, the other party or the authorities might say you were equipped for bear, and try to turn you from victim to predator in the eyes of the court.

But that would be harder to do if your weapon were not purpose-built.  For example, a fistful of keys can do some damage, but no judge would begrudge you merely for having one the way they would with a gun or knife.

I'd consider carrying something innocuous, anything from a roll of quarters in a sock to a small sturdy metal flashlight that could be used on its edges, which, if you're even the type with the ability to land a blow in the first place, could do notable damage.  The same could be said for steel water bottles.  They're too wide-handed and awkward to swing, but would otherwise make good short batons.  And no court could claim you were spoiling for a fight just because you had a water bottle.

2.  HOW WILL IT WORK?

Unfortunately, all such weapons that require you to engage in earnest could be of little use or even a terrible idea against someone who is your physical superior or able to intimidate you off your game ... if you even have any real game to start with.

If rather than legal repercussions you're thinking survival  or merely the ability to intimidate an aggressor enough to make him break off the attack and leave you alone, you need either distance or something that can deliver devastating damage even if you're completely untrained.  A gun or a taser are the only two reliable things in the distance category.  

Second comes a knife or mace/pepper spray.  Some people are not intimidated by sprays and even train to walk right through them.  Knives are absolutely deadly, but you have to be in the mindset to use them truly without hesitation or they can be taken away and used against you.  And if they prompt someone to pull out his own knife, you're in deadly trouble even if he is completely untrained.

Then for all weapons there is the problem of access.  You can probably get something out of your pocket or the front strap of a backpack very quickly, but a steel water bottle or other such baton in a backpack would probably be useless.  

3.  CARRYING A GUN

Nothing makes for a better defense or intimidation weapon, but I sure wouldn't want to fall on one.  So what position to carry in?

Landing hard on a gun carried behind you would be devastating to your back, and appendix carry (in front, in line with where the crotch meets your thigh) would make me worry a bit too.  Probably a cross-draw on the weak-side hip would be best, because a normal hip carry would place a gun on the side you will instinctively use to roll out of crashes on ... and a hard slam on the gun into your hip would be nasty for you and the gun both.  A gun positioned for cross-draw would probably never be hit.

There is a problem with carrying a gun that gives me pause.  What happens if you take a nasty spill somewhere and need help?  Considering you might have your ass above your ears at that point, your gun might show and intimidate people, or at least make it so that they put in a call to the police rather than an ambulance, or rather than simply giving you time to come out of a stupor and limp your way home.  

You can bet they won't keep quiet about it, because:  a) it makes for good gossip, and b ) some anti-gun folks are very happy to report anyone who has a gun in any circumstances at all, whether legal or not.  Many concealed carriers get reported to security guards or police simply because someone saw a suspicious imprint of a gun-like shape against someone's shirt.  People have been arrested for "brandishing" merely for carrying a rifle to the trunk of their car in their own driveway.  

Further, if you crash and the gun falls off you or is torn away from you ... you may be liable for whatever happens next even if you're unconscious.

Even if you merely face a stiff wind that presses your shirt against you so hard that there is a visible imprint of your gun ... life could get a lot more difficult very quickly.

SAFETY FIRST?

TLDR:

Overall, I'd rather just only ride in safe places, and unless it were my own neighborhood or one I knew like the back of my hand, I wouldn't ride at night.

And if tempted to carry a weapon, I would make it an everyday utility object that no court of law, jumpy onlooker, or aggressive cop would hold against me.

And ... carry a little money to give over, so a punk does't beat on you in a rage for not having as much money as he would prefer.  People have been killed for not having money, too.

 

[Dingfelder]

1 hour ago, kasenutty said:

I don't know about you guys, but the only way I've been able to feel safe is to shoot everyone who crosses my path. Just in case. 

A truly advanced martial artist learns to defend himself before the thought of attacking him has even occurred to anyone.  

Say, when eating dinner in a restaurant, waiting in line at the bank, at a bake sale, or sitting in church.

[Fuzzypixel]

1 hour ago, Dingfelder said:

A truly advanced martial artist learns to defend himself before the thought of attacking him has even occurred to anyone.  

Say, when eating dinner in a restaurant, waiting in line at the bank, at a bake sale, or sitting in church.

 

 A truly advanced martial artist doesn't have to defend himself as they give out an aura of confidence why says "don't mess with me" to any would be robber. 

 

 

[Hatchet]

I suppose it is not PC to say so, but it's usually easy to recognize who is likely to rob you, which groups of young men to avoid at all costs. Generally, it's easy to know which areas you'll find them hanging around.

On the other hand, violence and attack can come at anytime, from anywhere, that's just a fact of life. You might get beaten to death on a sunny crowded sidewalk by a meth head in psychosis.

The question is, do you carry a weapon or not. Generally, i'd rather have the option to put down attackers than not, but i would certainly go full-bore with training and safety before carrying. Here in Canada guns are still generally something rare that the "worst" gangbangers carry. 

[HeavyGoing]

I would say the best defense would be a streaming camera.  Maybe a helmet cam of some sort.

 

[Dingfelder]

On 6/1/2017 at 5:28 PM, Fuzzypixel said:

 

 A truly advanced martial artist doesn't have to defend himself as they give out an aura of confidence why says "don't mess with me" to any would be robber. 

 

 

A true martial artist is not too literal.  I was only kidding but I guess the joke feel flat. 

[meepmeepmayer]

I don't want to dismiss people's concerns (because somehow I've never been a person someone tried to pick on, so I may be talking from a privileged position), but:

• there really have been not very many attacks on EUC riders...
• I don't see how these were EUC specific...
• I don't see how self defense weapons would have changed much in the reported situations, other than some "they tried to get me but I had a weapon and so they got what they had coming" style fantasies in hindsight. What's a pepper spray or a knife really going to do against 5+ attackers or some asshole who tries to get you to fall with his car, in an attack that they know is coming but you don't expect?
  We had one guy who stabbed an alleged attacker (looks to me more like this wheeler didn't mind that escalation and may have caused it) who has now much more (legal) problems than he would if he had just said "fuck it" and ridden away.

I guess there's a point to be made about cameras, if they stream or don't get taken away, at least you can get the attackers after the fact. Other than that, I'll be with @Snurre's approach to use your brain and common sense/instincts (although mostly it will be simply bad luck when something happens).

Other thoughts: changing your clothing/appearance to look less like a target of opportunity. From @Pingouin's unfortunate tales, I'm getting the impression he might be someone who (for whatever reason and I'm not blaming him in any way) people think is an easy target, so appearance (and attitude) might be an influence. Maybe things that distract/make people think "wtf is that" (these neon LED visibility vests, colorful lights on your helmet,...) so potential attackers are delayed until you've passed.

Also: hard to make the split second decision and may be of limited use, but your speed may be your best weapon of last resort. Ramming your body/an elbow/your wrist guards into someone's face/body at 20 km/h may be a sufficient escalation to get people to think twice, realize they won't be able to run away easily/be found later etc to stop an attack in it's tracks. More of a last resort, but who knows.

Like I said, never had problems of these kind in any way, and body size (aka not being short or appearing "weak") can't be changed and might be the #1 influence factor in being attacked other than chance. So what do I know? In my view, not worth worrying about attacks until you have a history of these like @Pingouin seems to be cursed with. Then I guess it makes sense to get more concrete. Still wouldn't know any actual weapon to recommend to him that would work

[RooEUC]

19 hours ago, Snurre said:

Hm. Maybe I'm sticking my neck out but nature provided us with bigger brains to an advantage over other animals(!) so I would say that this is your best weapon: choose wisely your time, place and modus operandi for riding. Our ancestors experienced this some 60,000 years ago when walking through leopard territory but it still holds true when moving through certain human habitats.

I'm also curious: are these threats something that just affects EUC riders or could it happen to anyone on roller-blades, skateboards or bikes?

Yes, I am very careful of when and where I ride.  Never at night and never through areas I know to be rough, if I can avoid them.  But no amount of brain use can stop you from all possibilities of being attacked, unless you spend your whole life locked in a secure bunker.  This is about what to do if we are attacked and our safety is put in jeopardy.

I'm not sure if your question is serious or in jest.  If you live in the world you will be aware that every day innocent people are attacked, robbed, mugged, through no fault of their own.  It is not exclusive to EUCs, no. But when on an EUC there is somewhat of a spectacle and it catches people's attention, for better or for worse.  I have never been attacked on my EUC but I have had some rare, stupid, disrespectful comments thrown at me which would never have been said if I had been just walking, cycling or rollerblading. 

[RooEUC]

19 hours ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

Maybe just dont worry. let it go. its not worth it. No one will steal. to easy to trace. motor serial number and such, looks, scrapes are like finger prints. take picture of the scrapes and you can identified later on.

 

I would encourage you to grow past this level of naivety. 

[RooEUC]

18 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I wear heavy flat rings on the first two knuckles of my left hand, as my left hook as an orthodox boxer is by far my best shot.

Basically legal knuckledusters, and no one considers those weapons, can wear them all the time, and you won't hurt yourself throwing it unlike if you did with bare knuckles.

Kunckle dusters work because they divert the force into the palm, protecting the fingers.  Punching with rings on will potentially hurt the opponent more but it puts just as much force on your fingers as punching without.  They can actually focus the force onto a smaller area of the fingers and cause higher risk of breakage. Unless of course the rings are so large that the back securely rests against the palm, taking pressure off the fingers during impact.  Maybe these rings of yours are massive. 

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

18 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

TLDR: at bottom

1.  HOW WILL IT LOOK TO THE COURTS?

When it comes to legal repercussions, it's important to not look like you are someone who had an advantage or was spoiling for a fight.  In that regard, even if you are only equipped for rabbit, the other party or the authorities might say you were equipped for bear, and try to turn you from victim to predator in the eyes of the court.

But that would be harder to do if your weapon were not purpose-built.  For example, a fistful of keys can do some damage, but no judge would begrudge you merely for having one the way they would with a gun or knife.

I'd consider carrying something innocuous, anything from a roll of quarters in a sock to a small sturdy metal flashlight that could be used on its edges, which, if you're even the type with the ability to land a blow in the first place, could do notable damage.  The same could be said for steel water bottles.  They're too wide-handed and awkward to swing, but would otherwise make good short batons.  And no court could claim you were spoiling for a fight just because you had a water bottle.

2.  HOW WILL IT WORK?

Unfortunately, all such weapons that require you to engage in earnest could be of little use or even a terrible idea against someone who is your physical superior or able to intimidate you off your game ... if you even have any real game to start with.

If rather than legal repercussions you're thinking survival  or merely the ability to intimidate an aggressor enough to make him break off the attack and leave you alone, you need either distance or something that can deliver devastating damage even if you're completely untrained.  A gun or a taser are the only two reliable things in the distance category.  

Second comes a knife or mace/pepper spray.  Some people are not intimidated by sprays and even train to walk right through them.  Knives are absolutely deadly, but you have to be in the mindset to use them truly without hesitation or they can be taken away and used against you.  And if they prompt someone to pull out his own knife, you're in deadly trouble even if he is completely untrained.

Then for all weapons there is the problem of access.  You can probably get something out of your pocket or the front strap of a backpack very quickly, but a steel water bottle or other such baton in a backpack would probably be useless.  

3.  CARRYING A GUN

Nothing makes for a better defense or intimidation weapon, but I sure wouldn't want to fall on one.  So what position to carry in?

Landing hard on a gun carried behind you would be devastating to your back, and appendix carry (in front, in line with where the crotch meets your thigh) would make me worry a bit too.  Probably a cross-draw on the weak-side hip would be best, because a normal hip carry would place a gun on the side you will instinctively use to roll out of crashes on ... and a hard slam on the gun into your hip would be nasty for you and the gun both.  A gun positioned for cross-draw would probably never be hit.

There is a problem with carrying a gun that gives me pause.  What happens if you take a nasty spill somewhere and need help?  Considering you might have your ass above your ears at that point, your gun might show and intimidate people, or at least make it so that they put in a call to the police rather than an ambulance, or rather than simply giving you time to come out of a stupor and limp your way home.  

You can bet they won't keep quiet about it, because:  a) it makes for good gossip, and b ) some anti-gun folks are very happy to report anyone who has a gun in any circumstances at all, whether legal or not.  Many concealed carriers get reported to security guards or police simply because someone saw a suspicious imprint of a gun-like shape against someone's shirt.  People have been arrested for "brandishing" merely for carrying a rifle to the trunk of their car in their own driveway.  

Further, if you crash and the gun falls off you or is torn away from you ... you may be liable for whatever happens next even if you're unconscious.

Even if you merely face a stiff wind that presses your shirt against you so hard that there is a visible imprint of your gun ... life could get a lot more difficult very quickly.

SAFETY FIRST?

TLDR:

Overall, I'd rather just only ride in safe places, and unless it were my own neighborhood or one I knew like the back of my hand, I wouldn't ride at night.

And if tempted to carry a weapon, I would make it an everyday utility object that no court of law, jumpy onlooker, or aggressive cop would hold against me.

And ... carry a little money to give over, so a punk does't beat on you in a rage for not having as much money as he would prefer.  People have been killed for not having money, too.

 

If you carry a gun and you get injured on a fall, a mercifull pedestrian can stop and put you out of your misery. LOL.

[LanghamP]

19 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

Kunckle dusters work because they divert the force into the palm, protecting the fingers.  Punching with rings on will potentially hurt the opponent more but it puts just as much force on your fingers as punching without.  They can actually focus the force onto a smaller area of the fingers and cause higher risk of breakage. Unless of course the rings are so large that the back securely rests against the palm, taking pressure off the fingers during impact.  Maybe these rings of yours are massive. 

Massive and square.

I've never used them.

I tried to Google them and all the rings available are just designed to injure because they have spikes. These aren't mine; I just like to have a bit of mass on the end and I think all these spiked tools are highly inappropriate.

I would try to just do a slap though I'm not sure if I would be able to do that in the heat of the moment. Still the energy generated from a left hook is huge.

[RooEUC]

20 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

TLDR: at bottom

1.  HOW WILL IT LOOK TO THE COURTS?

When it comes to legal repercussions, it's important to not look like you are someone who had an advantage or was spoiling for a fight.  In that regard, even if you are only equipped for rabbit, the other party or the authorities might say you were equipped for bear, and try to turn you from victim to predator in the eyes of the court.

But that would be harder to do if your weapon were not purpose-built.  For example, a fistful of keys can do some damage, but no judge would begrudge you merely for having one the way they would with a gun or knife.

I'd consider carrying something innocuous, anything from a roll of quarters in a sock to a small sturdy metal flashlight that could be used on its edges, which, if you're even the type with the ability to land a blow in the first place, could do notable damage.  The same could be said for steel water bottles.  They're too wide-handed and awkward to swing, but would otherwise make good short batons.  And no court could claim you were spoiling for a fight just because you had a water bottle.

2.  HOW WILL IT WORK?

Unfortunately, all such weapons that require you to engage in earnest could be of little use or even a terrible idea against someone who is your physical superior or able to intimidate you off your game ... if you even have any real game to start with.

If rather than legal repercussions you're thinking survival  or merely the ability to intimidate an aggressor enough to make him break off the attack and leave you alone, you need either distance or something that can deliver devastating damage even if you're completely untrained.  A gun or a taser are the only two reliable things in the distance category.  

Second comes a knife or mace/pepper spray.  Some people are not intimidated by sprays and even train to walk right through them.  Knives are absolutely deadly, but you have to be in the mindset to use them truly without hesitation or they can be taken away and used against you.  And if they prompt someone to pull out his own knife, you're in deadly trouble even if he is completely untrained.

Then for all weapons there is the problem of access.  You can probably get something out of your pocket or the front strap of a backpack very quickly, but a steel water bottle or other such baton in a backpack would probably be useless.  

3.  CARRYING A GUN

Nothing makes for a better defense or intimidation weapon, but I sure wouldn't want to fall on one.  So what position to carry in?

Landing hard on a gun carried behind you would be devastating to your back, and appendix carry (in front, in line with where the crotch meets your thigh) would make me worry a bit too.  Probably a cross-draw on the weak-side hip would be best, because a normal hip carry would place a gun on the side you will instinctively use to roll out of crashes on ... and a hard slam on the gun into your hip would be nasty for you and the gun both.  A gun positioned for cross-draw would probably never be hit.

There is a problem with carrying a gun that gives me pause.  What happens if you take a nasty spill somewhere and need help?  Considering you might have your ass above your ears at that point, your gun might show and intimidate people, or at least make it so that they put in a call to the police rather than an ambulance, or rather than simply giving you time to come out of a stupor and limp your way home.  

You can bet they won't keep quiet about it, because:  a) it makes for good gossip, and b ) some anti-gun folks are very happy to report anyone who has a gun in any circumstances at all, whether legal or not.  Many concealed carriers get reported to security guards or police simply because someone saw a suspicious imprint of a gun-like shape against someone's shirt.  People have been arrested for "brandishing" merely for carrying a rifle to the trunk of their car in their own driveway.  

Further, if you crash and the gun falls off you or is torn away from you ... you may be liable for whatever happens next even if you're unconscious.

Even if you merely face a stiff wind that presses your shirt against you so hard that there is a visible imprint of your gun ... life could get a lot more difficult very quickly.

SAFETY FIRST?

TLDR:

Overall, I'd rather just only ride in safe places, and unless it were my own neighborhood or one I knew like the back of my hand, I wouldn't ride at night.

And if tempted to carry a weapon, I would make it an everyday utility object that no court of law, jumpy onlooker, or aggressive cop would hold against me.

And ... carry a little money to give over, so a punk does't beat on you in a rage for not having as much money as he would prefer.  People have been killed for not having money, too.

 

Excellent Post!  And I was totally with you right up to the point where you brought the guns in.  For most of us outside America, we are not legally able to or personally willing to ride around with a gun.  So we have to think of other strategies.  You made a lot of excellent points about the skills and mentality to be able to defend ourselves.  This is hard.  As generally good, honest, peaceful citizens we are automatically at a disadvantage to the attacker because, unlike him, most of us are not prepared for or experienced in intentially causing other people serious bodily harm.  And we are concerned about consequences. They, on the other hand, have been in plenty of fights, stolen from plenty of people before, and have little regard for the law, for our personal safety or for consequences that might arise after the attack.  Just overcoming that is tough.  I don't want to have to smash someone's face in with a metal water bottle when I'm out and about, but some of the bad guys out there are actually looking for an opportunity to fight and hurt a stranger.  I have been attacked in my teens by total strangers who just wanted to somehow impress their degenerate friends by hurting someone they didn't know.    

[RooEUC]

16 hours ago, Hatchet said:

I suppose it is not PC to say so, but it's usually easy to recognize who is likely to rob you, which groups of young men to avoid at all costs. Generally, it's easy to know which areas you'll find them hanging around.

On the other hand, violence and attack can come at anytime, from anywhere, that's just a fact of life. You might get beaten to death on a sunny crowded sidewalk by a meth head in psychosis.

The question is, do you carry a weapon or not. Generally, i'd rather have the option to put down attackers than not, but i would certainly go full-bore with training and safety before carrying. Here in Canada guns are still generally something rare that the "worst" gangbangers carry. 

Great points.

[kasenutty]

I doubt you would ever fall on the small of your back

[RooEUC]

7 hours ago, HeavyGoing said:

I would say the best defense would be a streaming camera.  Maybe a helmet cam of some sort.

 

I think they would just break it off and steal that too.  As for live streaming, well, technically it could be of use.  But I'm not willing to carry 12 batteries around and stream my whole outdoor life via my phone's LTE network just to try to share a live capture of my attacker some day in the near or very distant future.

[RooEUC]

7 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Massive and square.

Can you link me to similar rings?  This might actually be a viable tool if they work as you say.  I know with some knuckle dusters you can punch a tree, put a hole in it and feel almost nothing.

7 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

I doubt you would ever fall on the small of your back

What is the small of your back?

[kasenutty]

Seriously?

[RooEUC]

1 hour ago, kasenutty said:

Seriously?

Without you using the quote tool it's not clear who you were referring to when you said you doubt someone would fall on the small of their back. 

I have never heard that term.  I'm guessing it's an American term.  To me it's just called the lower back.  What's small about it?