King Song KS16S 840Wh - initial impressions

[WARPed1701D]

3 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

btw.: Did you read my signature? ;-)

For the first time I just realized that the mobile version of the site does not include a persons sig. Interesting.

To @sanman   I have read that tire liners can be more a liability than a blessing with tube being pinched between the overlapping ends of the liner. Read some Amazon reviews about them. I understand that no liners are made of the correct size for 16" or 18" wheels requiring cutting and sanding of the liner too. I have tires with Kevlar built in the rubber made by Schwabe (Marathon) on my Brompton (also a 16" tire but only 1.195 wide). Never had a puncture in 3000 miles, but I don't know of any brand that makes them wide enough for an EUC.

[sanman]

1 minute ago, WARPed1701D said:

For the first time I just realized that the mobile version of the site does not include a persons sig. Interesting.

To @sanman   I have read that tire liners can be more a liability than a blessing with tube being pinched between the overlapping ends of the liner. Read some Amazon reviews about them. I understand that no liners are made of the correct size for 16" or 18" wheels requiring cutting and sanding of the liner too. I have tires with Kevlar built in the rubber made by Schwabe (Marathon) on my Brompton (also a 16" tire but only 1.195 wide). Never had a puncture in 3000 miles, but I don't know of any brand that makes them wide enough for an EUC.

Hi, can you tell me if Kevlar tires ride as well as regular tires? Are there any issues with rolling resistance, etc?

In addition to the Kevlar tires and tire-liner, there's an additional solution of puncture-resistant (aka. "thorn-resistant") tire tubes. These tubes are thicker and thus less likely to be penetrated.

https://www.amazon.com/PACK-Money-Saver-1-95-2-35-Replacement/dp/B00OS688NI/ref=sr_1_3?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1501880591&sr=1-3&keywords=thorn+resistant+bicycle+tubes#customerReviews

 

[WARPed1701D]

30 minutes ago, sanman said:

Hi, can you tell me if Kevlar tires ride as well as regular tires? Are there any issues with rolling resistance, etc?

In addition to the Kevlar tires and tire-liner, there's an additional solution of puncture-resistant (aka. "thorn-resistant") tire tubes. These tubes are thicker and thus less likely to be penetrated.

https://www.amazon.com/PACK-Money-Saver-1-95-2-35-Replacement/dp/B00OS688NI/ref=sr_1_3?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1501880591&sr=1-3&keywords=thorn+resistant+bicycle+tubes#customerReviews

 

I read that rolling resistance is apparently a little higher compared to the other offerings for the Brompton rim but I honestly couldn't say for sure as going from a regular bike rim to a 16" changes the dynamics of energy storage in the rotating wheel massively thus requiring more effort to maintain speed. It's hard for me to judge. I wouldn't worry about it. Even with a kevlar tires and 16" rims I cruise quite happily. 

[dpong]

On 8/3/2017 at 5:16 PM, Marty Backe said:

At what battery level does the wheel turn into a Ninebot? Maybe 25%???

I tried to answer this question for myself this afternoon.  I took this screenshot as close as possible in real time to my getting my first KS16S tiltback and "Please Decelerate".   [The App shows I'm riding at 27.87kph with 23% battery.]

I'm not typically a very fast rider, so it is possible I didn't notice any speed limiting above 25%, but I don't think so.   So here, under 25% battery I got the limiting behavior at 27.87 kph which is just a hair over 17mph.   Max speed I ever did on a Ninebot E+ was 15mph.   So, yeah, approximately a NB.

I didn't ride the battery any lower than this as I'm "superstitious" about such activity.  

[steve454]

23 minutes ago, dpong said:

I'm not typically a very fast rider, so it is possible I didn't notice any speed limiting above 25%, but I don't think so.   So here, under 25% battery I got the limiting behavior at 27.87 kph which is just a hair over 17mph.   Max speed I ever did on a Ninebot E+ was 15mph.   So, yeah, approximately a NB.

So, it looks like at 25% you only lost about 2kmh, that's not much loss, so even at low battery it's still 2mph faster than NB.  Pretty good!

[dpong]

3 minutes ago, steve454 said:

So, it looks like at 25% you only lost about 2kmh, that's not much loss, so even at low battery it's still 2mph faster than NB.  Pretty good!

KS16S is supposed to support up to 35kph, but I promise you I can not confirm that personally.  At least, not yet. 

[Marty Backe]

49 minutes ago, dpong said:

I tried to answer this question for myself this afternoon.  I took this screenshot as close as possible in real time to my getting my first KS16S tiltback and "Please Decelerate".   [The App shows I'm riding at 27.87kph with 23% battery.]

I'm not typically a very fast rider, so it is possible I didn't notice any speed limiting above 25%, but I don't think so.   So here, under 25% battery I got the limiting behavior at 27.87 kph which is just a hair over 17mph.   Max speed I ever did on a Ninebot E+ was 15mph.   So, yeah, approximately a NB.

I didn't ride the battery any lower than this as I'm "superstitious" about such activity.  

Thanks. BTW, I semi-randomly picked 25% battery.

So we know the limiter is in affect at 25%. Now we just need to learn if that's when it starts (25, 30, 35, 40%).

[Justina]

20 hours ago, mrelwood said:

My 16S (fw 1.02) does not say "Hello", as I turned off the voices in the app version 1.4. Power on is silent, power off has one beep.

Great news 

 

20 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I dont know why you call the LG 840wh Batteries worse...they are exactly in the same range and operating as good as the Panasonic/Sanyo!

When you put a high amp draw on them they even give some wh more(LG green, Sanyo/Pana red):

I have one of the ugly illegal imported  "asia KSwheels" KS18S 1680wh...meanwhile Kingsong is using the "good" Sanyo/Panasonic GA 3500mah cell over it's complete product line, the main reason is as simple as it can be:

The cell is cheaper than the LG :-)

@KingSong69, as much as I appreciate your input, the graph proves nothing  It only shows the LG battery parameters are similar to Pana, which is certainly not a secret, and it isn't hard to achieve. Did you think they are different in terms of parameters? Of course they have to be similar, if they are going to the same wheel with the same battery option.

The fact Panasonic cells are cheaper than LG's is not a secret either. In fact, this is their goal. Why do you think they aimed to be the world's larger battery manufacturer and why do they need the Tesla Gigafactory? Both Tesla and Panasonic even officially stated (many times!) they do this to produce more batteries cheaper than ever.

The chart does not tell you anything about durability, longevity, production process and quality control. From a simple logical point of view, Panasonic is investing so much they can't risk producing bombs or poor quality batteries, to not repeat Samsung marketing fiasko. Since they will be soon able to drop the production costs even more, they can invest even more in the quality to ensure they'll stay not only the number one manufacturer, but also their brand will be recognized by reliability, quality and safety.

Personally, how many good LG products do you know? How many good products they have released? This may be harsh, but they've introduced so many low quality products, no one trusts them any more. This is my personal opinion, but whenever I have a chance to pick LG or another company product, I pick another company. I wouldn't trust LG batteries in my wheel, and Panasonic batteries are used in the world's best electric cars with a success, what makes them much more trustworthy. 

Back to the price: you haven't considered one thing. The prices you have access to are consumer prices, or international, official prices. Remember this is China, this is Shenzhen, this is KingSong. You don't know what deal they have made and what is the actual price. Maybe there are also some limitations about what batteries they can bring to which market. Maybe there is a potential law issue? I hope I don't need to remind you that European and American product quality laws are more strict than China's. KingSong probably wouldn't want troubles in case something was wrong with the batteries. But assuming that there are no other factors to consider than the cell price and parameters, I can tell you what every business owner would do: if Panasonic cells would really be cheaper and have similar performance, they would be implemented to all wheels, because it is more economical option in many ways. That is not the case in KingSong, so there must be something odd going on with the LG cells. Otherwise why would they like to keep the supply, assembly and distribution processes much more complex and expensive?

 

15 hours ago, esaj said:

Yeah, I checked the pictures too before opening the unit, the hard part are the plastic clips around the edges (not on the dark led-covers, they come off pretty easy). Still managed to open it without breaking any of the clips (luckily they're pretty short, so they shouldn't snap off easy).

Screwdriver left some small marks around the edges on the B when I opened it, maybe something softer (plastic?) could be better there if you're worried about it. The shell just snaps in place when putting it back in, so if you're changing to new outer shells, then it shouldn't matter that much.

 

I was wondering if they just put white B/C shells on mine, as they don't have the "Sports"-emblem on the side, just the "normal" King Song-logo... not that I mind, actually it's better if it's indistinguishable from the B, since S isn't technically legal here (too high motor power) 

 

There's a much easier way to do this. Just start from the first mark at the bottom, using a mobile phone repair tool (plastic). Pry it off and slide around the outer shell. That's it. No marks, no screwdrivers, no broken hooks. You could watch a disassembly video first to save yourself the trouble, unless you like to find out things like that yourself and do some reverse-engineering, then I totally understand and respect that 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Now we just need to learn if that's when it starts (25, 30, 35, 40%).

I like data! Based on my early morning trip today with KingSong KS-16S (fw 1.02) I was able to gather the following:

30-100% 35kph

25% 32

20% 28

15% 26 (= Lhotz)

10% 23 (= Ninebot One)

5% 21

0% (50.0V, 3.125V/cell) 20

48,0V (3.00V/cell) tilt back to stop

So if the battery dips below 48,0V, you get a tilt back regardless of speed. If it stays under 48,0V, the tilt back also stays on forcing you to stop.

No rodeo or molten wires at any speed, so no Gotway reference... 

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I like data! Based on my early morning trip today with KingSong KS-16S (fw 1.02) I was able to gather the following:

30-100% 35kph

25% 32

20% 28

15% 26 (= Lhotz)

10% 23 (= Ninebot One)

5% 21

0% (50.0V, 3.125V/cell) 20

48,0V (3.00V/cell) tilt back to stop

So if the battery dips below 48,0V, you get a tilt back regardless of speed. If it stays under 48,0V, the tilt back also stays on forcing you to stop.

No rodeo or molten wires at any speed, so no Gotway reference... 

Great set of data. Thanks for posting this. I could probably live with 28km/h at 20%

[US69]

2 hours ago, Justina said:

@KingSong69, as much as I appreciate your input, the graph proves nothing 

I would guess this graph proves that LG cells under their max continuous draw is tested as good/better than the Pana cell and giving same range/watthour, which is btw prooved in a lot other tests and over time, too. I guess that is what defines the quality of a batterie.....

Thats at least an better argument than just saying "LG cells and brand are worse" and proving it with no other argument than "thats my opinion".

2 hours ago, Justina said:

they will be soon able to drop the production costs even more, they can invest even more in the quality to ensure they'll stay not only the number one manufacturer, but also their brand will be recognized by reliability, quality and safety

Thats the first time i saw the argument that reducing costs will go in with investing in higher quality....

2 hours ago, Justina said:

But assuming that there are no other factors to consider than the cell price and parameters, I can tell you what every business owner would do: if Panasonic cells would really be cheaper and have similar performance, they would be implemented to all wheels, because it is more economical option in many ways. That is not the case in KingSong, so there must be something odd going on with the LG cells. Otherwise why would they like to keep the supply, assembly and distribution processes much more complex and expensive?

You got me, now i know something must be odd with LG cells..... 

[Justina]

18 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I would guess this graph proves that LG cells under their max continuous draw is tested as good/better than the Pana cell and giving same range/watthour, which is btw prooved in a lot other tests and over time, too.

I understand that. Like I said: I agree, obviously the range and Wh is similar, and it couldn't be different if KingSong markets both models (with Pana and LG batteries) identical (besides branding).

 

18 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

I guess that is what defines the quality of a batterie.....

And here I agree to disagree  Besides the battery, let's say, "performance" (Wh, discharge etc.), there are differences in the lifetime, durability, performance under certain conditions (like weather, for which EUCs are still very vulnerable, unfortunately). Another very important factor is the quality control or even the production process accuracy. What I mean is: so what you get the same "performance", while cells made by one company can last forever and only 1/100000 would be a faulty one, while other company can produce 4 faulty units of 100000 (for example). It's more likely you'll get a faulty cell in your battery pack and it's never a good thing 

This is what the battery overall quality is.

Besides, Panasonic is well known from some optimizations in their cells to improve the battery lifetime and durability, even for exchange to a tiny bit of performance. And Li-ion is not the only kind of cells they are famous of. I'm sure you know the NiMh Eneloops, which are a great example of what they are capable of.

 

18 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Thats at least an better argument than just saying "LG cells and brand are worse" and proving it with no other argument than "thats my opinion".

This is not a bidding which argument is better. The chart is simply not an argument at all, as it's inconclusive. It doesn't say anything else we already know.

Let's separate my personal opinion from my actual arguments, logic and economics.

 

18 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Thats the first time i saw the argument that reducing costs will go in with investing in higher quality....

But it's true. If Panasonic wants people to buy their batteries worldwide, they need to care about the highest possible quality, which is no additional cost for them, as:

a. The production of the same cells in Tesla Gigafactory will be much cheaper,

b. The factory production line will use a completely new design, implemented with the best hardware possible. It will be a better production line than they have ever had. No way they didn't double check the projects and didn't improve the production accuracy,

c. They already have some completely new cell designs, like these used in Tesla Model 3.

All of the above reduces the costs of the production, while improving quality. Note they still needed to make a huge investment first, which is planned to pay off later.

 

Another good example is Samsung. No one expected such failure like the new Note batteries. It could have happened to anyone, but happened to Samsung.

Now they have better quality control than other phone manufacturers, really strict standards and requirements for new battery supplies. 

They wanted to reduce costs as everyone, and it resulted in higher quality. Of course they had to pay a lot $$$ for the Note failure, but Panasonic had to invest a lot more into Gigafactory. Two different situations, but similar outcome. 

 

 

Now, we can create Panasonic and LG fanboy clubs  but as much as I enjoy our discussion and talking about wheels overall, there's one thing I enjoy more... actually riding on EUCs, outside! 

Best regards

[US69]

@Justina

Just to say it in short:

That has nothing to do with fanboism!

to state that LG cells are lower quality than Pana/Sanyo cells is nothing more than an opinion...and needs some prove in form of test, Graphs? Report etc about failure rate, lifetime, durability etc instead of you stating it over and over again that you THINK that LG cells are bad.....

 

The reason we discuss that at all is that you said the "Chinese imported KS wheels" have "lower quality LG cells" and that that probably is the case for all KSwheel type , I guess because you want to make an argument for the "real trusted european seller deal"...fortunately available at your store?!

When i am allowed to give a tip: i would concentrate on differences where you can really stand out as a European seller...good service, more warranty, customer near, nonlanguage problems etc etc..(where I heard only good things about your store!!!)

But not by inventing some difference between cell types which are just not existing and/or nowadays these difference of celltypes in the KingSong/Kswheels even not anymore existing, if this even has ever been.

Over and out :-)

[kasenutty]

LG cells are good. 

[steve454]

On 8/4/2017 at 6:48 PM, dpong said:

I tried to answer this question for myself this afternoon.  I took this screenshot as close as possible in real time to my getting my first KS16S tiltback and "Please Decelerate".   [The App shows I'm riding at 27.87kph with 23% battery.]

I'm not typically a very fast rider, so it is possible I didn't notice any speed limiting above 25%, but I don't think so.   So here, under 25% battery I got the limiting behavior at 27.87 kph which is just a hair over 17mph.   Max speed I ever did on a Ninebot E+ was 15mph.   So, yeah, approximately a NB.

I didn't ride the battery any lower than this as I'm "superstitious" about such activity.  

Just noticed the Refrigeration On message on the lower left of the screenshot.  That's a neat feature for an app.  Nice looking app.