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HermanTheGerman

Sudden KS16 cutout ???

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Sounds like it turned off completely.

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Hi,

Is it the KS16B 680Wh ? How much do you weight ? How much battery did you have when you rode it ?

I often ride with my friend who has a KS16B, he has ridden it about as much as you, and he had the problem you mention on several occasions. Apprently, the torque of the KS16B may be insufficient when starting from a standpoint if you are a heavy rider (my friend weights 93kg). He is cautious when riding especially when the battery is low, be he still gets the "be caution, overpower" from time to time, in extreme conditions the motor can fail to balance him and the message won't even have the time to go trhough the speakers.

We have tested it on steep climbs, it failed at some occasions with him, but never with him (I weight 60kg) so we got to the conclusion that the motor is not capable of delivering enough power in some occasions. This is why as a heavy rider, my friend is highly considering the newer KS16S 1200W or GT16.

It's not a faulty unit, it's just something that seems to happen with heavy rider.

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I remember a thread on this forum about the exact same situation. Only that it was a beginner starting up with the help of a traffic light pole, and that it was a KS14 (I think). The poster reported that a more experienced guy who always does "normal" starts never had this problem, whereas he, who mounts the wheel first and then gets going the way you describe it had it happen multiple times (I think). Then there was some discussion about a firmware problem with this sort of startup.

Search the forum, I think you will be able to find this thread somewhere.

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My guess is the torque required starting from holding a pole is far greater than the torque starting from one foot on the ground. With one foot on the ground, you probably kick off, and the strain on an engine to get you from a standstill to moving is extremely high. You *probably* just overleaned.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Duf said:

Sounds like it turned off completely.

No, it was on, I just needed to pick it up, roll it by hand back and forth 2 or 3 times until it catched it's balance and could continue.

 

1 hour ago, Pingouin said:

Hi,

Is it the KS16B 680Wh ? How much do you weight ? How much battery did you have when you rode it ?

I often ride with my friend who has a KS16B, he has ridden it about as much as you, and he had the problem you mention on several occasions. Apprently, the torque of the KS16B may be insufficient when starting from a standpoint if you are a heavy rider (my friend weights 93kg). He is cautious when riding especially when the battery is low, be he still gets the "be caution, overpower" from time to time, in extreme conditions the motor can fail to balance him and the message won't even have the time to go trhough the speakers.

We have tested it on steep climbs, it failed at some occasions with him, but never with him (I weight 60kg) so we got to the conclusion that the motor is not capable of delivering enough power in some occasions. This is why as a heavy rider, my friend is highly considering the newer KS16S 1200W or GT16.

Yes, it's a KS16 680 Wh. My weight is around 80 kg. I already climbed the steepest hills with the wheel in the last months, and I accelerated REALLY heavily both on flat terrain and also uphill, and also from standstill, never had a problem, this was the 1st time just out of the blue sky.

 

1 hour ago, Christoph Zens said:

I remember a thread on this forum about the exact same situation. Only that it was a beginner starting up with the help of a traffic light pole, and that it was a KS14 (I think). The poster reported that a more experienced guy who always does "normal" starts never had this problem, whereas he, who mounts the wheel first and then gets going the way you describe it had it happen multiple times (I think). Then there was some discussion about a firmware problem with this sort of startup.

Search the forum, I think you will be able to find this thread somewhere.

Thanks, I'll try to find that.

 

1 hour ago, codersarepeople said:

My guess is the torque required starting from holding a pole is far greater than the torque starting from one foot on the ground. With one foot on the ground, you probably kick off, and the strain on an engine to get you from a standstill to moving is extremely high. You *probably* just overleaned.

From a physics point of view you are right, you need a little bit more torque.

But that cannot be the reason, because at several occasions in the past I really accelerated very strongly from holding a pole, and had no problem. This time I just wanted a very smooth acceleration, because I was in soft mood (and there were no girls around to impress).:)

Edited by HermanTheGerman
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I found it by manually browsing the history. It was a KS16 after all... 

 

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yip...sounds like "start from standstill shortly after powering on fold"....

Capacitors not completly loaded....but:

do you have the newest firmware? as far as i know...this fault was corrected with 1.22 or 1.23.....

 

And to keep you cool: only hapends shortly after powering on..and accelerating from a standstill.

i would advise to load newest firmware if not allready done.

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1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

yip...sounds like "start from standstill shortly after powering on fold"....

Capacitors not completly loaded....but:

do you have the newest firmware? as far as i know...this fault was corrected with 1.22 or 1.23.....

 

And to keep you cool: only hapends shortly after powering on..and accelerating from a standstill.

i would advise to load newest firmware if not allready done.

I'm not sure. @HermanTheGerman stated that he already rode 100m before reaching the light pole where he stopped for a while. So the wheel was powered and moving for quite a while before it happened.

It will be interesting to see which firmware version his wheel is running. 

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What is the serial number of your KS16? Early boards were not reliable; perhaps you should contact the your reseller & to try to purchase/replace the control-board. 

 

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It is possible that after few multiple leans forward and backward the gyro could get be crazy to switch the wheel off ?

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If the KS16 is like my 14C, the on/off switch is just a momentary pushbutton.

I don't have a schematic, but it's likely the switch just connects a pull-up resistor to 0V.  This is (probably) just a logic input to a processor or discrete circuitry that "shuts off" the wheel by turning off a series pass device.

A typical "junior engineer mistake" is to use only a resistor on a net whose state is critical--like the reset input of a processor or the on/off control (again, probably) of the entire wheel.

Without a capacitor, the net becomes very ESD sensitive.  Not sensitive in the sense the input is damaged, but rather the net's voltage can easily glitch low. 

Likely, when you are riding the wheel a static charge develops on your body and wheel relative to earth ground.  Stepping off the wheel could cause a discharge rapid enough to cause the pulled up net to glitch low.  Which would turn the wheel off just as if you pushed the button.

 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, just noticed you touched a sign.  That would cause a rapid static discharge.

It would be easy to add a tiny cap across the switch, but f this turns out to be true, it implies no ESD susceptibility testing is NOT being done on the KS design.   Not something you'd test on every board, but something that really should be done on a representative board to verify the electrical cirduit design.

Edited by DaveThomasPilot
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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

I found it by manually browsing the history. It was a KS16 after all...

Thanks, after reading that I am convinced it is exactly the same problem.

 

22 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

I'm not sure. @HermanTheGerman stated that he already rode 100m before reaching the light pole where he stopped for a while. So the wheel was powered and moving for quite a while before it happened.

It will be interesting to see which firmware version his wheel is running. 

I'm running 1.25 since 2 months, and before 1.23.

And now, I need to say I had a similar incident approximately 6 or 8 weeks ago, but at that time I thought it was my fault, because I started not holding a pole, but just as usual with stepping up the 2nd foot. I thought I lost balance, but now I believe it was the same issue, because I was wondering back then, I didn't have the feeling that I did something wrong.. 

Meanwhile I can sometimes reproduce it, only when I hold a pole, stand still for 15 seconds or so on the wheel with both feet and then lean forward very slightly. It never happens when I lean forward heavily to accelerate faster.  However, I can't reproduce it each time, I would estimate 1 out of 10 tries.

 

20 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

What is the serial number of your KS16? Early boards were not reliable; perhaps you should contact the your reseller & to try to purchase/replace the control-board.

@Jason McNeil: Serialnumber of my KS16B is "KS16 D3B0 1604 26003".  I bought it in July 2016 if I remember correctly.

 

11 hours ago, Robi Bobi said:

It is possible that after few multiple leans forward and backward the gyro could get be crazy to switch the wheel off ?

Maybe it's something like that, but as I mentioned above, I can only rarely reproduce it, and it happens only, when I try a smooth start (therefore now I'm nearly always starting like in a Ferrari :)  ).

 

5 hours ago, DaveThomasPilot said:

If the KS16 is like my 14C, the on/off switch is just a momentary pushbutton.

I don't have a schematic, but it's likely the switch just connects a pull-up resistor to 0V.  This is (probably) just a logic input to a processor or discrete circuitry that "shuts off" the wheel by turning off a series pass device.

A typical "junior engineer mistake" is to use only a resistor on a net whose state is critical--like the reset input of a processor or the on/off control (again, probably) of the entire wheel.

Without a capacitor, the net becomes very ESD sensitive.  Not sensitive in the sense the input is damaged, but rather the net's voltage can easily glitch low. 

Likely, when you are riding the wheel a static charge develops on your body and wheel relative to earth ground.  Stepping off the wheel could cause a discharge rapid enough to cause the pulled up net to glitch low.  Which would turn the wheel off just as if you pushed the button.

I don't think it's something like that, because the wheel is always running after such an incident, I just need to pick it up and move it back and forth 2 times to ride again.

Thanks all for your thoughts. To me it looks like a firmware bug, or at least an issue with the Gyro.

Edited by HermanTheGerman
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14 minutes ago, HermanTheGerman said:

I'm running 1.25 since 2 months, and before 1.23.

And now, I need to say I had a similar incident approximately 6 or 8 weeks ago,... 

That sounds like firmware 1.23 was good, but they reintroduced the problem in 1.25? Scary. 

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There are more changes in the firmwere v 1.25. My Ks16 has now after full charge, drive few hundreds meters, and during braking I hear beeps overcharge warning and slight tilt back for a moment even after braking is released. Which I didn't hear and have before with v 1.23

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23 hours ago, Christoph Zens said:

That sounds like firmware 1.23 was good, but they reintroduced the problem in 1.25? Scary. 

Maybe.

Normally it doesn't happen, I rode the whole day today without an issue.  Because I know that it only happens while starting and under very special circumstances (which I still don't completely understand), I'm a little bit cautious now when taking off, so that it cannot take me by surprise. :)

 

22 hours ago, Robi Bobi said:

There are more changes in the firmwere v 1.25. My Ks16 has now after full charge, drive few hundreds meters, and during braking I hear beeps overcharge warning and slight tilt back for a moment even after braking is released. Which I didn't hear and have before with v 1.23

That is exactly right, I noticed the same !  

It's not that disturbing (maybe the older firmware just didn't announce this overcharging, though it was still there).

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Hope King Song did not hire the Firmware-Developer formally employed at Ninebot (remember V1. 29) :efee96588e:

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Got a cut off today on my way to work, resulting in a faceplant. I was riding at low speed talking to a Cyclist and when i took off after our conversation the EUC cut off maybe after 15meters when i was accelerating to get back to my regular crusing speed( average 25 km/H)

I rode 700 km on my KS 16B and got 1.25 firmware  since it got released. Yesterday unintentionalay i got into leveling calibrating mode and tried not to fiddle with it . I did dot noticed any difference today when i rode, so i do not know if it had any impact. I got really suprised to be thrown away from the EUC as i never ever had any issues before.

 

 

 

 

 

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Well i guess that is the main problem of KS firmware... They never take in concideration the load of our engine. I trully hope they fix that soon ( @Diana@szkingsong.com :) )

@cm16600When you cut off : Did you accelerate strongly ? Did you were in uphill ?

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I checked at home an when at rest the wheel was leaning forward 3 degrees. I calibrated it back to 0.

Let's hope this was the reason to the cut off.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, cm16600 said:

I checked at home an when at rest the wheel was leaning forward 3 degrees. I calibrated it back to 0.

Let's hope this was the reason to the cut off.

I calibrated my KS16 long time ago for 3 degrees, but leaning backward (so my toes are always a little bit higher than with default calibration).

I drive it this way, because I think it is easier to ride offroad, and also easier to accelerate in sharp curves this way.

I believe if it would be tilted 3 degrees in the other direction as you describe it, I would nearly fall off. But of course the wheel should not shut off just because of such a setting.

Edited by HermanTheGerman

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It's not linked. Calibration doesn't explain your cut off... Weird

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I am Diana from King Song. I have talked with our research engineer about it. He thinks you may accelerated too much at the beginning. You'd better accelerate after you ride 2m.

If you try our KS-16S, it won't perform like this.

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