People in cars ignoring EUC riders right of way

[dpong]

3 minutes ago, JimB said:

Yup, funny Canadian video   But yes, I actually do this.  At one spot downtown, I'm riding on the sidewalk parallel to traffic.  I need to travel diagonally across a crowded 4-way stop.  Pedestrians should have RoW, but the poor folks in cars are just trying to navigate the crowded intersection.  So I turn left, in front of the car I'm paralleling, I slow down, and extend my arm so the driver can clearly see where I'm going.  Then I immediately turn right, crossing the other side of the intersection - same thing - extend arm.  It really helps.

Also, it works with other pedestrians.  When I'm aiming for the ramp at the end of the sidewalk, the peds see me coming and don't know where to move.  I just casually reach my arm out and point where I'm headed.  Pedestrians don't immediately realize that we can't go up or down curbs (ok, so sometimes we go down curbs).

I do the same in any situation that might seem ambiguous.  It really helps.

(Well, except for the part about traveling diagonally across a crowded 4-way stop.  That I don't do.)

[JimB]

42 minutes ago, dpong said:

I do the same in any situation that might seem ambiguous.  It really helps.

(Well, except for the part about traveling diagonally across a crowded 4-way stop.  That I don't do.)

I didn't say I travel diagonally across the intersection.  I said I NEED to travel diagonally.  I cross left, then right.

[LanghamP]

Slightly off topic; since 100% of pedestrians under the age of 25 walk while on their smartphones, I've taken to playing music over my KS14C. It does seem to work.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

4 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Slightly off topic; since 100% of pedestrians under the age of 25 walk while on their smartphones, I've taken to playing music over my KS14C. It does seem to work.

Only 100% ?

If you're playing music... Try the theme to jaws - and video it too!

[LanghamP]

Yesterday I had to bail twice when cars went into the pedestrian zebra stripes. I did manage to catch the wheel on both occasions.

I do not think these near collisions are actually the driver's fault; it's the design of the intersections that are faulty.

Specifically, here in the USA we have many intersections that have a dogleg in the right hand turns; this forces drivers to look almost entirely behind them. Physically unfit drivers cannot easily do this.

Both these drivers couldn't look behind them and also to their right front quarter panel; that's more than a 180 degree turn. It's simply not doable even by fit people but unfit people will take that much longer to spot both front and back.

In retrospect I don't ever recall having to bail from non-dogleg intersection. These dogleg intersection are becoming too popular and they are an absolutely terrible design.

[Dingfelder]

39 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Yesterday I had to bail twice when cars went into the pedestrian zebra stripes. I did manage to catch the wheel on both occasions.

I do not think these near collisions are actually the driver's fault; it's the design of the intersections that are faulty.

Specifically, here in the USA we have many intersections that have a dogleg in the right hand turns; this forces drivers to look almost entirely behind them. Physically unfit drivers cannot easily do this.

Both these drivers couldn't look behind them and also to their right front quarter panel; that's more than a 180 degree turn. It's simply not doable even by fit people but unfit people will take that much longer to spot both front and back.

In retrospect I don't ever recall having to bail from non-dogleg intersection. These dogleg intersection are becoming too popular and they are an absolutely terrible design.

That's interesting.  It never even occurred to me that some drivers might simply be physically unable to scan for traffic.

[kasenutty]

Those people sound like they're not fit to be driving. 

[LanghamP]

35 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

Those people sound like they're not fit to be driving. 

When I drove to work today I did a little experimenting. When coming to a dogleg I simply stopped the car straight. I mean, I had to turn right then left, but basically I ended up mostly pointed into the intersection.

Result: it is much easier to scan all the traffic including pedestrians as everybody is to my front.

I find it astonishing that doglegs even exist. Does no one see how dangerous these are to people attempting to cross in front of the car while the driver is looking behind him? Even more astonishing is that doglegs have a "yield" sign instead of a stop; this means the driver is encouraged to look behind him while continuing forward.

That brings me to my next point; most traffic circles are are really really good at keeping the pedestrians in full forward view of the cars at all times. However, since a traffic circle is nothing but doglegs, that must means a lot of collisions occur.

No such collisions seem to occur, and looking at utube videos, apparently European drivers have a distinct way of driving into traffic circles.

The merging cars seem to suicidally point their cars left into oncoming traffic, then at the merge they quickly crank their wheel hard right. That's a pretty sporty manuever to do, and I wonder if that's why European cars are sportier in their suspension; they have to get around traffic circles.

[WARPed1701D]

11 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

No such collisions seem to occur, and looking at utube videos, apparently European drivers have a distinct way of driving into traffic circles.

The merging cars seem to suicidally point their cars left into oncoming traffic, then at the merge they quickly crank their wheel hard right. That's a pretty sporty manuever to do, and I wonder if that's why European cars are sportier in their suspension; they have to get around traffic circles.

I'm originally from the UK and never really did what you suggest happens at "roundabouts". They are actually incredibly efficient ways to keep traffic moving. I wish there were more of them here rather than lights at every intersection, although they confuse the hell out of people where I live. It would probably be more dangerous. The UK also has very few Stop signs. Nearly every intersection that isn't light controlled is a yield (including roundabouts). I think there are a couple of problems for pedestrians in the US.

First is that they just aren't respected. They are a rarity in all but major cities. Everyone is in their cars. Drivers don't look for them because 99% of the time they aren't going to be there. In their opinion it a wasted effort and inconvenience so why bother.

Secondly, as you alluded, a lot of drivers just shouldn't be on the road (especially in Florida). If they can't look in all directions necessary to perform a safe maneuver then their ability to operate the vehicle is limited. Age, injury, or simply having 5 chins and/or bellies from too many pies reduces their ability to twist as needed. In many European countries towns are centralized with clear business and commerce areas and this makes public transport efficient and viable. Many US cities grew with the automobile and become spread out. Many euro drivers who are elderly or physically challenged give up their cars because public transport is a viable (sometimes also free) option.

Third. Cell phones. Banned from use in the UK with heavy fines. I wish to god that would happen here.

Lastly, In the UK at least you will not find pedestrian crossings right at the intersection unless it has a light. They are always set back 30 or 40 feet from the junction. This makes the act of stopping for a pedestrian a separate act from stopping for traffic at the junction and so safer. If the crossing as at the junction with a light then all directions have a red stop light when pedestrians at any crosswalk have a cross signal and there is no right (or left in the UK) on red. This is a huge help in pedestrian safety in my opinion.When people move, all cars are stopped.

You are right that there is some abysmal road design in the US cities I have been in. Priority is given to the convenience of the car. Pedestrians and their safety is very much an afterthought.

[LanghamP]

Dear Lord, I got hit by another car today, again, while in the crosswalk.

This time I was jogging, car stopped to look left, I'm thinking he doesn't see me since he's looking left. I don't get mad, he's apologetic, but, man, my wrist hurts.

I can't wait until self-driving cars predominate as humans are pretty bad at watching out for pedestrians.

Maybe those states that don't allow "right on red" are correct. 100% of my accidents and close calls are "right on red" where the car doesn't even stop.

 

[LanghamP]

...and this morning a pedestrian is killed on the road I cross every day to and from work.

Pedestrian crosses while on the pedestrian light, driver kills her, no charges at all are filed nor will they be filed. If you're a pedestrian then you have to look out for yourself as 1. cars aren't, 2. no consequences if they kill you.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pedestrian-killed-in-des-peres-crash/article_5e00ba9a-a46b-52f7-ba8b-fc093c18bad1.amp.html#ampshare=http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pedestrian-killed-in-des-peres-crash/article_5e00ba9a-a46b-52f7-ba8b-fc093c18bad1.html

[eddiemoy]

I almost got run over yesterday twice in NYC and I was going in the bike lanes.  

[Dingfelder]

19 hours ago, LanghamP said:

...and this morning a pedestrian is killed on the road I cross every day to and from work.

Pedestrian crosses while on the pedestrian light, driver kills her, no charges at all are filed nor will they be filed. If you're a pedestrian then you have to look out for yourself as 1. cars aren't, 2. no consequences if they kill you.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pedestrian-killed-in-des-peres-crash/article_5e00ba9a-a46b-52f7-ba8b-fc093c18bad1.amp.html#ampshare=http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pedestrian-killed-in-des-peres-crash/article_5e00ba9a-a46b-52f7-ba8b-fc093c18bad1.html

Ugh, sorry you got hit there.  There is that double whammy there, of not only the WHAM! but the discouraging thought that people can be so careless.

Also, re the killing, no charges filed?  Wow.  "I didn't see her" doesn't sound like a very strong defense, but I guess it was perfect ... which is pretty scary.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

The signs - take heed of them.    What do they say, fool me once, shame on you, hit me what six times, I'm taking the pedestrian overpass ramp!

[Dingfelder]

On 6/29/2017 at 8:14 AM, WARPed1701D said:

Many US cities grew with the automobile and become spread out. Many euro drivers who are elderly or physically challenged give up their cars because public transport is a viable (sometimes also free) option.

...

You are right that there is some abysmal road design in the US cities I have been in. Priority is given to the convenience of the car. Pedestrians and their safety is very much an afterthought.

You are right that many areas in the the U.S. were developed explicitly with consideration to the car.  Specifically, there was an explosion of highway growth during the Eisenhower administration that connected cities and helped prompt the growth of suburbs, which became pretty much the idealized new American way to live.  Much of the middle class fled the inner cities, which went into decline and either became increasingly ghetto-ized or were turned into commercial districts.

Some of those suburbs were built with so little consideration for pedestrians that they don't even have sidewalks.  You are either walking on the edge of someone's property -- sometimes along a dangerously narrow sliver of road shoulder, even possibly perilously close to a rain ditch or right inside one -- or on the road itself.  This is popular in some wealthy neighborhoods that don't want pedestrians in the vicinity and in which you can be rousted just for walking.

Public transportation is also often not available or competent.  Buses can be infrequent, unreliable, poorly staffed, and filthy.  In some places, waiting at a bus stop is a bit dicey, as there are too many young punks around.  Trains are largely available only in the biggest cities.

I do believe any driver can drive safely if he wants to.  There's just a carelessness toward life that seems to be fairly common now. I mean, we have always had screwballs and people who think only about themselves, but it seems to have gone mainstream.  That's why for my whole life, I have always driven very defensively.  You just can't count on other people to hold up their end of the bargain when it comes to us all keeping each other reasonably safe.  

And some final things:  Cell phone use is dangerous to be sure.  But I think putting on make-up is worse.  I have seen soooo many people doing that, even at freeway speeds, and saw someone crash into the back of another car while putting on her eye make-up and looking in the mirror at the same time.  That's crazy dangerous and absolutely non-essential.

Also, a ton of accidents are supposedly caused by people tending to their music while driving.  A big one is picking up a dropped CD or cassette (old days), but simply fiddling around with the buttons on your console can lead to the same temporary total lack of attention.  Apparently people have been tested to find that they have a drastically different idea of how long they look away from the road and how good their focus is versus what the truth about that really is.  

 

[Dingfelder]

5 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

The signs - take heed of them.    What do they say, fool me once, shame on you, hit me what six times, I'm taking the pedestrian overpass ramp!

I wish we had more of those.  I have rarely seen them in the U.S.  They're so rare they strike me as from another culture, like old-world somehow or vaguely European.

[steve454]

On 6/29/2017 at 10:14 AM, WARPed1701D said:

Lastly, In the UK at least you will not find pedestrian crossings right at the intersection unless it has a light. They are always set back 30 or 40 feet from the junction. This makes the act of stopping for a pedestrian a separate act from stopping for traffic at the junction and so safer.

In Japan the lights turn red in all directions, stopping all traffic completely and pedestrians are free to cross the intersection at any angle.  Works great when there are dozens if not hundreds of people waiting to walk across an intersection.

[steve454]

20 hours ago, LanghamP said:

If you're a pedestrian then you have to look out for yourself as 1. cars aren't, 2. no consequences if they kill you.

Yes, when crossing the street it's safest to look out for the other guy.  A pedestrian can see much better than a driver also.

[meepmeepmayer]

9 minutes ago, steve454 said:

In Japan the lights turn red in all directions, stopping all traffic completely and pedestrians are free to cross the intersection at any angle.  Works great when there are dozens if not hundreds of people waiting to walk across an intersection.

I was literally thinking about this today! Every intersection should have this, mandatory. Stop all cars, let pedestrians, cyclists etc go where they want without having to possibly wait for TWO lights if they go diagonal (no car ever has to wait for two lights at an intersection!!!).

Of course that famous Tokyo intersection comes to mind, but didn't know they have this everywhere.

20 hours ago, LanghamP said:

...and this morning a pedestrian is killed on the road I cross every day to and from work.

Pedestrian crosses while on the pedestrian light, driver kills her, no charges at all are filed nor will they be filed. If you're a pedestrian then you have to look out for yourself as 1. cars aren't, 2. no consequences if they kill you.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pedestrian-killed-in-des-peres-crash/article_5e00ba9a-a46b-52f7-ba8b-fc093c18bad1.amp.html#ampshare=http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/pedestrian-killed-in-des-peres-crash/article_5e00ba9a-a46b-52f7-ba8b-fc093c18bad1.html

Ridiculous. Maybe run over a politician's kid and "I didn't see the guy I killed" is less of an accepted excuse from then on

[steve454]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Of course that famous Tokyo intersection comes to mind, but didn't know they have this everywhere.

Don't know if they have them everywhere, and am not remembering for sure where I saw this, but am pretty sure it was in Yokosuka.  But did visit Tokyo while in the Navy, so that could have been it.  It made so much sense, I never forgot it.

[Flavour]

On 22/04/2017 at 11:02 PM, JimB said:

So I follow these rules:

• Make sure you're highly visible, especially at night.  I wear a flashing light band on my helmet, and a solid one across my back.  I don't care if people think I look dorky - light me up like a Christmas tree!

This is actually very silly and proven by research that can get you killed more likely.

Ready about target fixation - this is the phenomena, which also explains why drunk drivers often crash into police cars when they see them.

Another thing is there are no blinking lights in the nature. Because of that, it is very hard for a driver to estimate the distance to you and your speed. Research also show, a one rear red lamp is all you need (steady mode ofc.), unless you are driving at night - then the front lamp is for your convenience (you want to see the road in front of you, don't you?).

I didn't mention that you will make people on the road confused, because you admitted it yourself.

 

Remember, most people driving cars shouldn't have a licence, because they can't focus, observe and predict. Most bicyclist also aren't too smart to be allowed on the road. Unfortunately, many EUC riders are feather-heads, too. I've seen myself some nasty stuff EUC riders did, because of not thinking.

My point is, it is not certain the situation from the first post here was related to the EUC in any way. The driver could do the same with a bicycle rider, pedestrian or whoever else.

Issues like this are so common in the drivers and bicyclist world, that you shouldn't change everything because of that, especially for worse (flashing like a Christmas tree). And it wouldn't matter if a driver has actually seen you - he could have, but still could do a stupid manoeuvre. 

 

My advice is: on the road always use your brain and trust no one. Be careful and focus instead of assuming other users of the road are 100% focused and know what they're doing.

http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/1342-blinking-lights/#comment-13429

 

[Dingfelder]

1 hour ago, Bat said:

Remember, most people driving cars shouldn't have a licence, because they can't focus, observe and predict. Most bicyclist also aren't too smart to be allowed on the road. Unfortunately, many EUC riders are feather-heads, too. I've seen myself some nasty stuff EUC riders did, because of not thinking.

 

I feel the same way about parents.

[WARPed1701D]

4 hours ago, steve454 said:

In Japan the lights turn red in all directions, stopping all traffic completely and pedestrians are free to cross the intersection at any angle.  Works great when there are dozens if not hundreds of people waiting to walk across an intersection.

 This is how it works in the UK too, but no diagonal crossing. Pedestrians press a button, wait for the current green light to go out and then all lanes have red and the pedestrian can cross while there is no traffic moving anywhere (no turning on Red either...red means you stop behind the line regardless of where you want to go). Despite the inconvenience this needs to be instituted in the US and right on red should be abolished.

[Dingfelder]

2 hours ago, WARPed1701D said:

 This is how it works in the UK too, but no diagonal crossing. Pedestrians press a button, wait for the current green light to go out and then all lanes have red and the pedestrian can cross while there is no traffic moving anywhere (no turning on Red either...red means you stop behind the line regardless of where you want to go). Despite the inconvenience this needs to be instituted in the US and right on red should be abolished.

Right on red is one off the main benefits of civilization.  It saves an enormous amount of time.  You guys may have bumped into bad luck, but in 20 years in Los Angeles, with lots of daily walking and driving, I don't recall personally witnessing any problems.  Same in Oregon and Hawaii.  

I get where you're going, but I don't think you can legislate stupidity out of the human equation, or that it necessarily makes sense to dumb down all society to the lowest level just because some people live at the lowest level.  That just infantilizes adults, most of who fall into the average rather than the extreme.

[Flavour]

On 20/07/2017 at 4:52 AM, WARPed1701D said:

 This is how it works in the UK too, but no diagonal crossing. Pedestrians press a button, wait for the current green light to go out and then all lanes have red and the pedestrian can cross while there is no traffic moving anywhere (no turning on Red either...red means you stop behind the line regardless of where you want to go). Despite the inconvenience this needs to be instituted in the US and right on red should be abolished.

Pedestrians wait for a green light in the UK? In an alternative Universe, maybe