kingsong Kingsong 14D Review

[Paddylaz]

It looks like Princess Leia ?

[Jason McNeil]

Here's the specification sheet: contains a lot of errors, mostly a copy/paste job from the 14D. On balance its a positive development, despite the criticisms, I'm going to be putting an immediate order in.

Pros:

• Top speed of 30kph vs. 28kph with the KS14S
• Battery pack size (obviously)
• 4x speakers for a more robust sound
• Extendable handle on the 14D was superb. They replaced the el-cheapo plastic handle with a magnesium alloy one; feels solid, well-built  

Cons:

• Width, if the specs are to believed, it's even wider than the KS16! Until we get confirmation, I wouldn't put too much faith in what's written, espeically since their official 14D spec has the width at 400mm!! http://www.szkingsong.com/upload/file/contents/2016/12/5858f66961eca.pdf
• 16kg is pretty substantial! Recall that the KS14C (pretty much same mechanics) was 14.6kg & the KS16 is not much more than this
• KS need to wake up to the fact that 6.5hr charging is not an acceptable amount of time! There's a new generation of electric cars that are coming online which will be able to charge from 20-80% in 15 minutes; asking for official support (& warranty potential) for 4A charge rates on a Wheel is not an unreasonable demand. 

I asked to get a picture of inside the 14S shell, this is what they sent. To me, the pack looks too slim, for 32 cells per side the width will be double this.

Wheel width is obviously important. I believe there's a 'Goldilocks' (or optimum) dimension to be reasonably comfortable, probably between 12-18cm at the upper leg contact point—for those who think otherwise a elementary experiment is to simply stand up; now what is the distance between you feet, do you normally stand with your feet touching? By way of comparison the 14C was 190mm & the 16" 196mm, so if this specification is correct, it's definitely not ideal! Why is there bulbous extrusion on the upper third of the pad? What benefit could this possibly serve but for the greater discomfort of the Rider? Isn't there anyone at KS who thinks about these things? 

[Marty Backe]

38 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Here's the specification sheet: contains a lot of errors, mostly a copy/paste job from the 14D. On balance its a positive development, despite the criticisms, I'm going to be putting an immediate order in.

Pros:

• Top speed of 30kph vs. 28kph with the KS14S
• Battery pack size (obviously)
• 4x speakers for a more robust sound
• Extendable handle on the 14D was superb. They replaced the el-cheapo plastic handle with a magnesium alloy one; feels solid, well-built  

Cons:

• Width, if the specs are to believed, it's even wider than the KS16! Until we get confirmation, I wouldn't put too much faith in what's written, espeically since their official 14D spec has the width at 400mm!! http://www.szkingsong.com/upload/file/contents/2016/12/5858f66961eca.pdf
• 16kg is pretty substantial! Recall that the KS14C (pretty much same mechanics) was 14.6kg & the KS16 is not much more than this
• KS need to wake up to the fact that 6.5hr charging is not an acceptable amount of time! There's a new generation of electric cars that are coming online which will be able to charge from 20-80% in 15 minutes; asking for official support (& warranty potential) for 4A charge rates on a Wheel is not an unreasonable demand. 

I asked to get a picture of inside the 14S shell, this is what they sent. To me, the pack looks too slim, for 32 cells per side the width will be double this.

Wheel width is obviously important. I believe there's a 'Goldilocks' (or optimum) dimension to be reasonably comfortable, probably between 12-18cm at the upper leg contact point—for those who think otherwise a elementary experiment is to simply stand up; now what is the distance between you feet, do you normally stand with your feet touching? By way of comparison the 14C was 190mm & the 16" 196mm, so if this specification is correct, it's definitely not ideal! Why is there bulbous extrusion on the upper third of the pad? What benefit could this possibly serve but for the greater discomfort of the Rider? Isn't there anyone at KS who thinks about these things? 

Great info and I'm glad to hear that you will be selling it. If it indeed comes with a 840wh battery this may be my next wheel. Seems like in general it's an upgrade to the 14C which I've really enjoyed.

Is this an 84v wheel?

[Jason McNeil]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Is this an 84v wheel?

They're not interested in pursuing 84v. About a month ago I asked if they had plans, even longer term ones, & received a definitive 'NO'....

[meepmeepmayer]

Very interesting info, and funny how they can't give decent information about their own product

At least for me, 84V or not does not matter, as long as the actual result (torque or power or whatever) is good. Is 84V needed for higher performance?

[JAL_GRANADA]

This is a picture of KS14D's weight that it has 800W and 420Wh. Another 420Wh extra battery will be weight 1,5 Kg, so I think maybe KS14S will weight around:

13,56Kg + 1,5Kg = 15 Kg (more or less)

[Paddylaz]

It definitely looks great - the actual width will certainly be interesting!

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

They're not interested in pursuing 84v. About a month ago I asked if they had plans, even longer term ones, & received a definitive 'NO'....

That's fascinating to hear. As someone who has owned both versions of the same wheel (ACM) I can say that the 84v one has a noticeable boost in power (acceleration, etc).

It's like portable power tools. You have to go out of your way to buy a 12v power tool. Nearly everyone has progressed up the voltage ladder because of the extra power.

At some point KingSong will have to make the jump if they want to stay competitive.

I've heard rumors of Gotway and ~100v wheels. I really hope they do because I know they will be more powerful which I think is always good with our wheels - extra margin for safety.

[Marty Backe]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

<snip>
Is 84V needed for higher performance?

84v wheels is not just marketing. It's a fact that the 84v wheels have more power then the equivalent lower voltage wheel. I can attest to that fact having owned both versions of the same wheel. Given the choice I will now always go for the higher voltage version. I'm hoping Gotway does come out with a 100v wheel. 

[Jason McNeil]

21 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Given the choice I will now always go for the higher voltage version. I'm hoping Gotway does come out with a 100v wheel. 

There's a point (perhaps already crossed) at which the voltage is considered 'too high' for a Consumer Electronics item, the bodies in opposition are the 1) LVD in Europe & 2) UL 2272. For Swagway, in order to get their rebranded Inmotion V6 UL certified, they had to drop the pack below 60v, which has also limited the top speed to 15kph—this of course is great for us. 

Although newer, the V6 is actually slightly inferior (material finish, no color choices), the objective with the design remit was to produce a 'cheaper' version of V3Pro.

[Marty Backe]

44 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

There's a point (perhaps already crossed) at which the voltage is considered 'too high' for a Consumer Electronics item, the bodies in opposition are the 1) LVD in Europe & 2) UL 2272. For Swagway, in order to get their rebranded Inmotion V6 UL certified, they had to drop the pack below 60v, which has also limited the top speed to 15kph—this of course is great for us. 

Although newer, the V6 is actually slightly inferior (material finish, no color choices), the objective with the design remit was to produce a 'cheaper' version of V3Pro.

Let's hope Gotway doesn't decide to seek certification 

Edit: Don't you love how various bureaucrats locked up in a room someplace, who probably never attempt to enjoy the things they regulate, suck the life out of what gives us joy. 

[esaj]

On 5/20/2017 at 7:45 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Very interesting info, and funny how they can't give decent information about their own product

At least for me, 84V or not does not matter, as long as the actual result (torque or power or whatever) is good. Is 84V needed for higher performance?

Not necessarily, but you can get the same amount of power with less current when using higher voltage, and that drops other costs (you can use thinner wiring for example) and the battery cells won't need to put out as much amperage. It does come with some tradeoffs too, like the more cells you put in series in the batteries to get higher output voltage, the more likely there will be cell failures eventually, especially if not balanced often, the mosfets have tradeoffs vs. current handling capacity, gate charge and maximum voltage, power stages need to be redesigned for higher voltages etc.

At least most European countries use 220-240V AC voltage in households, this makes it possible to use thinner gauge wiring (or higher power for same amperage) vs. 110-120V AC used in UK and US (and probably elsewhere too). The actual transfer grid uses hundreds of kilovolts (the highest are something like 400kV = 400000V transfer lines here), as otherwise the losses in the grid would be huge over long distances. Not taking into account any losses, at 400kV (RMS) you could transfer 400kW (RMS) of power at 1A current (probably should say "VA" instead of "W" and "apparent power" since it's AC? but anyway...). At 230V, you'd need about 1740A for the same power. The high-voltage transfer lines have enough voltage to arc a long way from the actual wire through air, if you're close enough and there's a pathway to ground, or through something you might not first think of as conductive, not something to play around with

 

 

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Let's hope Gotway doesn't decide to seek certification 

Edit: Don't you love how various bureaucrats locked up in a room someplace, who probably never attempt to enjoy the things they regulate, suck the life out of what gives us joy. 

In this case, I'd think it's not (only ) about ruining people's hobbies, the higher the voltage, the more likely it can give you a (possibly lethal) electric shock just by touch. Although probably the voltage levels chosen as "safe" (something like 42V AC and 60V DC is mentioned often as thresholds) are somewhat arbitrary and conservative, plus it makes a big difference what body parts are touching, whether things are wet or not etc. Human skin (when dry) has relatively high resistance, but if your hands (for example) are sweaty or wet, or a conductor pierces your skin, things can change a lot. Under "right" conditions, 12V can be deadly or 100V can be perfectly safe, but the higher the voltage, the higher current it can cause to flow through your body at same resistance, and thus the risk goes up with voltage... it's the current that kills in the end.

But it's not like "normal" wheel owners stick their hands into the powered circuits or batteries usually   I'm not familiar with the standards, but I'd expect that mostly the problem is with the charger sockets, as they're (more) exposed, rather than the electronics and batteries enclosed safely within the shells?

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, esaj said:

Not necessarily, but you can get the same amount of power with less current when using higher voltage, and that drops other costs (you can use thinner wiring for example) and the battery cells won't need to put out as much amperage. It does come with some tradeoffs too, like the more cells you put in series in the batteries to get higher output voltage, the more likely there will be cell failures eventually, especially if not balanced often, the mosfets have tradeoffs vs. current handling capacity, gate charge and maximum voltage, power stages need to be redesigned for higher voltages etc.

At least most European countries use 220-240V AC voltage in households, this makes it possible to use thinner gauge wiring (or higher power for same amperage) vs. 110-120V AC used in UK and US (and probably elsewhere too). The actual transfer grid uses hundreds of kilovolts (the highest are something like 400kV = 400000V transfer lines here), as otherwise the losses in the grid would be huge over long distances. Not tanking into account any losses, at 400kV (RMS) you could transfer 400kW (RMS) of power at 1A current (probably should say "VA" instead of "W" and "apparent power" since it's AC? but anyway...). At 230V, you'd need about 1740A for the same power. The transfer lines have high enough voltage to arc a long way from the actual wire, even through air, if you're close enough and there's a pathway to ground, not something to play around with

 

 

In this case, I'd think it's not (only ) about ruining people's hobbies, the higher the voltage, the more likely it can give you a (possibly lethal) electric shock just by touch. Although probably the voltage levels chosen as "safe" (something like 42V AC and 60V DC is mentioned often as thresholds) are somewhat arbitrary and conservative, plus it makes a big difference what body parts are touching, whether things are wet or not etc. Human skin (when dry) has relatively high resistance, but if your hands (for example) are sweaty or wet, or a conductor pierces your skin, things can change a lot. Under "right" conditions, 12V can be deadly or 100V can be perfectly safe, but the higher the voltage, the higher current it can cause to flow through your body at same resistance, and thus the risk goes up with voltage... it's the current that kills in the end.

But it's not like "normal" wheel owners stick their hands into the powered circuits or batteries usually   I'm not familiar with the standards, but I'd expect that mostly the problem is with the charger sockets, as they're (more) exposed, rather than the electronics and batteries enclosed safely within the shells?

I don't know if that animate GIF is real, but I love it 

Our wheels are mostly plastic so we're not likely to get a shock from touching them, and while riding, our tires provide lots of insulation from ground. But I get your points 

[Diana@szkingsong.com]

On 2017-5-20 at 7:06 PM, JAL_GRANADA said:

It's not bad. Do you know something about de weight?

The weight is about 16 KG.  

[Diana@szkingsong.com]

On 2017-5-20 at 6:22 PM, JAL_GRANADA said:

ohhhhh, It really great. What is the engine power of KS14S?

The engine power is 800w

[steve454]

Not my video, recent review of the KS14D.