abinder3 Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I'm sure that he's buying the ACM because it's currently the best EUC on the planet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 30, 2017 Author Share Posted March 30, 2017 I think I'll be going back sometime and... how do you even measure inclines properly? I can at least take a few specific photos. Not sure if Google Maps is accurate enough to give some more information than we have. -- Update time: Regarding the ACM, looks like Gotway want to send a new motor (apparently because the cables are damaged, a new motor is needed?) as well as a new board (I think it is ok, but well). Unfortunately no other info, what Ian/GW think happened or so. Maybe its just their standard response to any wheel damage to send new parts for anything that could possibly be damaged. In theory I could do the repairs myself, not sure if that's a good idea never having done that before. The critical part is connecting the cables to the board (unless the board has them already connected [does it?]) and the motor cables to the board cables. Any input on that, can much go wrong? Well, looks like I'll just get the ACM repaired and then... no questionable inclines? Still not sure about the entire thing. Why didn't just the motor connectors melt (or the mosfets) if they are the usual weak points? Will try to get some more information somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 25 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: I think I'll be going back sometime and... how do you even measure inclines properly? I can at least take a few specific photos. Not sure if Google Maps is accurate enough to give some more information than we have. -- Update time: Regarding the ACM, looks like Gotway want to send a new motor (apparently because the cables are damaged, a new motor is needed?) as well as a new board (I think it is ok, but well). Unfortunately no other info, what Ian/GW think happened or so. Maybe its just their standard response to any wheel damage to send new parts for anything that could possibly be damaged. In theory I could do the repairs myself, not sure if that's a good idea never having done that before. The critical part is connecting the cables to the board (unless the board has them already connected [does it?]) and the motor cables to the board cables. Any input on that, can much go wrong? Well, looks like I'll just get the ACM repaired and then... no questionable inclines? Still not sure about the entire thing. Why didn't just the motor connectors melt (or the mosfets) if they are the usual weak points? Will try to get some more information somehow. Using a simple Inclinometer app on your phone should provide you the incline (lay the phone on the ground). Thousands of ACMs have been sold and apparently working in the vast majority of the cases. You have the bad fortune to experience one of the outliers. Get it fixed and then enjoy the wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Is the wheel the outlier or the inclined route? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Update time: Regarding the ACM, looks like Gotway want to send a new motor (apparently because the cables are damaged, a new motor is needed?) as well as a new board (I think it is ok, but well). Unfortunately no other info, what Ian/GW think happened or so. Maybe its just their standard response to any wheel damage to send new parts for anything that could possibly be damaged. In theory I could do the repairs myself, not sure if that's a good idea never having done that before. The critical part is connecting the cables to the board (unless the board has them already connected [does it?]) and the motor cables to the board cables. Any input on that, can much go wrong? Well, looks like I'll just get the ACM repaired and then... no questionable inclines? Still not sure about the entire thing. Why didn't just the motor connectors melt (or the mosfets) if they are the usual weak points? Will try to get some more information somehow. What a bummer that you are required to repair it! What other industry treats their customers in that fashion? And no mention of what exactly caused the malfunction? Did they ask for any of the components to be shipped back for inspection? As for the board, the 3 motor wire leads that exit the PCB should be attached. You will probably have to connect the those wires to the actual motor leads. Hopefully they will provide the connectors! Take lots of photos as you disassemble the wheel and use separate holding trays for each batch of screws as there are numerous sizes and styles. How does this affect your warranty? Best wishes! I will help you anyway I can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: <snip> How does this affect your warranty? <snip> Always the comedian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Rehab1 said: What a bummer that you are required to repair it! No! Ian offered to repair, but I could do it myself if I wanted. Thanks for the board clarification. I'll probably still send it to Ian, but not 100% sure yet (only 99%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: No! Ian offered to repair, but I could do it myself if I wanted. Thanks for the board clarification. I'll probably still send it to Ian, but not 100% sure yet (only 99%). With your Kind of damage i would let Ian repair that! A complete Motor and board Change you will certainly not like to do.... Very good that they Change the complete Motor, cause who knows how far the wires are melted even inside the Motor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I'd vote for sending back to have it repaired if you aren't familiar with working on electronics. As well for future warranty purposes it's nicer to have the dealer work on it so they can't blame you if something fails again. Are they going to cover shipping or are they going 50-50 on it? They can also do a thorough postmortem to maybe figure out what really went wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 @KingSong69 Thanks for your opinion. I thought in the end, the only electrical thing to do would be to solder the motor wires to the board wires. But the sensor wires go to the mainboard too and I don't know what happens there as everything is under a blob of glue. Is there anything else electrical? The mechanical part seems not so complicated. Anyways, you convinced me it's better if Ian does it, even though it is probably not that hard and I'm curious. Oh well. I've already planned to use the ACM carefully until I get a newer wheel (maybe in 2 years there are much better models) and the tinkering will have to wait until then. @Hunka Hunka Burning Love It's 50-50, is that common? Well I can live with that. Ian didn't say anything about the damage so not sure if he will when looking at it, but I can ask again. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I don't know what the standard is with EUCs, but I think with most warranty work people ship their items in on their dime, the dealer fixes it, and mails it back at their cost. I don't know with a failure like yours whether they would cover shipping both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 7 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Always the comedian Are you alluding that my warranty has been compromised? 1 hour ago, KingSong69 said: With your Kind of damage i would let Ian repair that! 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: I'd vote for sending back to have it repaired if you aren't familiar with working on electronics I agree with the consensus!!! Send er Back! If you decide to send it back we may be able to speed up the shipping process. I am having trouble finding parts in the US so I am taking the Gulfstream G650 to China. There is plenty of room for you and your busted wheel and a stop over to see Ian would be no problem! Seriously, like @Hunka Hunka Burning Lovepointed out I would inquire about shared shipping costs as round trip could be expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: @KingSong69 Thanks for your opinion. I thought in the end, the only electrical thing to do would be to solder the motor wires to the board wires. But the sensor wires go to the mainboard too and I don't know what happens there as everything is under a blob of glue. Is there anything else electrical? The mechanical part seems not so complicated. Anyways, you convinced me it's better if Ian does it, even though it is probably not that hard and I'm curious. Oh well. I've already planned to use the ACM carefully until I get a newer wheel (maybe in 2 years there are much better models) and the tinkering will have to wait until then. @Hunka Hunka Burning Love It's 50-50, is that common? Well I can live with that. Ian didn't say anything about the damage so not sure if he will when looking at it, but I can ask again. Good point. You say GW will spend a new Motor...and a new board. I would guess that a new Motor, means just the Motor, no rubber tyre, no pedals! So you would not only have to completly dissasemble the ACM, also you are needing to Change the tyre and the pedals to the new Motor. As your Motor cables are burned/melted very hefty, a Motor Change is a wise Thing! Otherwise you risk that the wires are not only melted where you can see it, they couls also be defect inside the axle, where they are "packed" the most! This dont have to be, but at least -if no complete Motor Change-i would inspect inside the old Motor then.... Then also: You have had a very respectable short because of the melting...who the hell knows if not some parts of the boards are damaged now! That said...that is all work for the seller...in my opinion! Beside the shipping costs: From German law that would be the sellers part, also! But as this was a european Business...i would not insist on that..perhaps yoou pay sending to Ian...an he when sending it back to you.... What i find a bit unusual is that Ian didn't say anything more about it....after he posted the "footrest braking" photo/warning on his Website...i would exspect that he warns his customers about very hefty or Long steep inclines, also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Ian just said he does not think the same would happen again, but not why. And he'll need to look at the wheel to say more. So I think warning people now might be premature. Let's be patient (I know, that's hard, for me too, no wheel and nice weather!) I know about the shipping costs, but he'll pay for the shipping back and that's fine with me. - Any tips for shipping, concerning the batteries? His tip is not mentioning them if they don't ask, but since it will be online, I either do or do not declare them. Did anyone get a shipment returned for undeclared batteries or have any other trouble? Trouble when declaring batteries? Would probably use fedex since that's how it got shipped here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 Surprise update: lots of interesting information from Ian/Gotway! Quote: From Gotway they have confirmed that the cables were not routed properly. They have updated all staff to make sure they are routed correctly. They have also put in place a procedure where the connectors dont run along side each other (they are in a new position, not along side it other) to help with heat dissipation. Secondly they have added heat protection sleeves to the cables. Please see attached picture. I think with these changes they have learnt from the failure and changed process to match (as well as the change in connector style - since Dec 2016), the new wiring position process has been in place for the last month apparently). end quote He believes the same problem won't happen again, I still won't do that hill again but that's good to hear, no danger (knock on wood) with newer wheels with the improved cabling. -- He also had the clever idea to try and have GW send me a new wheel (without batteries) directly, so I could just swap these (easy, just some plugs) and it's good. Less work for him and I'd have an extra battery-less wheel for playing around with (ideally, just some cables are damaged, but apparently there might be more hidden damage) so win-win customer service here, nevermind if it works or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvenOdd Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: Surprise update: lots of interesting information from Ian/Gotway! Quote: From Gotway they have confirmed that the cables were not routed properly. They have updated all staff to make sure they are routed correctly. They have also put in place a procedure where the connectors dont run along side each other (they are in a new position, not along side it other) to help with heat dissipation. Secondly they have added heat protection sleeves to the cables. Please see attached picture. I think with these changes they have learnt from the failure and changed process to match (as well as the change in connector style - since Dec 2016), the new wiring position process has been in place for the last month apparently). end quote He believes the same problem won't happen again, I still won't do that hill again but that's good to hear, no danger (knock on wood) with newer wheels with the improved cabling. Thanks for the update! I'm just hoping the kid who assembled my GW got the memo (half joking...I'm hoping they don't have kids building these things, but it is China). Still going to open it and check once I receive it! I plan on taking pictures as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Surprise update: lots of interesting information from Ian/Gotway! Quote: From Gotway they have confirmed that the cables were not routed properly. They have updated all staff to make sure they are routed correctly. They have also put in place a procedure where the connectors dont run along side each other (they are in a new position, not along side it other) to help with heat dissipation. Secondly they have added heat protection sleeves to the cables. Please see attached picture. I think with these changes they have learnt from the failure and changed process to match (as well as the change in connector style - since Dec 2016), the new wiring position process has been in place for the last month apparently). end quote He believes the same problem won't happen again, I still won't do that hill again but that's good to hear, no danger (knock on wood) with newer wheels with the improved cabling. -- He also had the clever idea to try and have GW send me a new wheel (without batteries) directly, so I could just swap these (easy, just some plugs) and it's good. Less work for him and I'd have an extra battery-less wheel for playing around with (ideally, just some cables are damaged, but apparently there might be more hidden damage) so win-win customer service here, nevermind if it works or not From all the new boards and motors that I've seen shipped from GotWay and other manufacturers, they already come with connectors and everything in place ready to plug in. They also come with tires and foot brackets installed, but not pedals. It's simply a matter of removing Motor and Motherboard, and replacing. But, you need to use new Heat Paste on the Heat Sync to Pedal Bracket, and put new glue on wires where they plug into MB. If not done correctly, you can heat up again. I would suggest Ian do this since you have not gotten into this before. He will also inspect for any other damage, and from what I've seen of his warranty work, he's pretty thorough. I'm sure he's not posting anything yet since he has not personally seen the wheel, (like you say, premature). After his inspection, if he finds a need to post, he definitely will. He's not shy about throwing things out there when they need to be. If this is a one off problem, he may not bother. It does happen. I'd be curious to see what the new routing is on the wires. That's a very simple fix for everyone to do. It probably consists of not having them lay right next to each other, or next to any metal that can short them if hot. Also, adding heat shielding is user friendly if you don't have any on there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Secondly they have added heat protection sleeves to the cables. Please see attached picture. I think with these changes they have learnt from the failure and changed process to match (as well as the change in connector style - since Dec 2016), the new wiring position process has been in place for the last month apparently). Gnaaarc...This Picture with the "added" heat protection sleeves...is nothing real new, or? :-) Fact is that they just forgot all this sleeves on your wheel ;-) Even on my -october 2016 V3- there have been these heatsleaves installed. Otherwise: Great News from Ian, i really hope you get a new wheel directly!!! That would be the best solution for you AND Ian. I hope they will make this decision fast....if i would be you.....my wheel would be allready in Ian's Workshop ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 31, 2017 Author Share Posted March 31, 2017 14 minutes ago, SuperSport said: I'd be curious to see what the new routing is on the wires. That's a very simple fix for everyone to do. It probably consists of not having them lay right next to each other, or next to any metal that can short them if hot. Also, adding heat shielding is user friendly if you don't have any on there now. I get the feeling it will just be fixed motor connectors heat sleeves everywhere and a minimum of cable management So nothing really new (as @KingSong69 suspects too), just the latest state of the art if the particular worker feels like it on that particular wheel But who knows... maybe GW will surprise us all (in a good way I mean) @KingSong69 Yep buying from Ian was definitely worth it (and the price was really good to, low GBP) however this goes. The cleverness of his idea made my day. By fast you mean you'd want a working wheel asap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Maybe they need to use wire separators like they do with spark plug wires to keep things separate. Or just use thicker wires from a redesigned motor to start with and not have to deal with these problems? If wires are getting that hot to warrant using heat sleeves for protection and not to protect the wires from external heat that seems to indicate something isn't quite right to me. It's sort of like buying a hair dryer, but noticing that they have a heat sleeve all the way down the cord... The cord gets warm during use, but it shouldn't be hot enough to melt or cause problems for adjacent cords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: Surprise update: lots of interesting information from Ian/Gotway! Quote: That is fantastic news! Your due diligence and wherewithal has paid off! Congrats! 4 hours ago, KingSong69 said: Gnaaarc...This Picture with the "added" heat protection sleeves...is nothing real new, or? :-) Fact is that they just forgot all this sleeves on your wheel ;-) Even on my -october 2016 V3- there have been these heatsleaves installed. Correct! @meepmeepmayer'S picture depicting the new sleeves is (or was) just like mine before the rabbit chewed on them. I hope GW makes sure your insulation on the wires is tight up against the connector! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Maybe they need to use wire separators like they do with spark plug wires to keep things separate. Or just use thicker wires from a redesigned motor to start with and not have to deal with these problems? If wires are getting that hot to warrant using heat sleeves for protection and not to protect the wires from external heat that seems to indicate something isn't quite right to me. Although it's not a bad idea from temperature-perspective, I think the actual reason for using the separators with spark plugs is that the voltage used to create the spark (electricity "jumping" over the gap) is huge: Spark plugs usually require voltage of 12,000–25,000 volts or more to "fire" properly, although it can go up to 45,000 volts. If the wires were next to each other, that high voltage can cause the arc to occur between parallel wires, rather than at the plug For dropping the heating of wires, IMHO, only going with higher gauge wire would seem like a good solution, the heat is generated by the resistance and high current in the wires (even though wire/copper resistance is low, milliohms range, the power dissipation will go up fast with high currents). EUC Extreme mentioned that the thick charging wires heat up when he fast charges the lipo-packs (he said it in Finnish in one of his videos, so most people probably could never tell). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 minute ago, esaj said: Spark plugs usually require voltage of 12,000–25,000 volts or more to "fire" properly, although it can go up to 45,000 volts. If the wires were next to each other, that high voltage can cause the arc to occur between parallel wires, rather than at the plug It can also jump from ground to your hand! Guess how I know! When getting hit with the spark from a high output coil, it's above 40,000 volts and feels like getting hit by a hammer! I've had it happen many times over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I wonder why they don't use that braided fire resistant wire like they have for stoves. I've had to replace the burner connector on my stove a couple of times, and the replacement kit comes with this pretty durable braided sort of wire insulator. I think it's meant to resist the high temperatures around stove elements, and I've seen similar wiring insulation that goes to halogen sockets. If they don't want to use a larger diameter bearing to accommodate thicker wiring to reduce heat, maybe they should use a wire that can better resist the heat coming off the wire? Take for example: Maybe something like this? http://wirescable.com/1-1-3-insulation-braided-wire.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 So expensive and cables melting , by the way sparks dont fly on so low voltage , it can only be because of underdimensioned cables , Gotway fix it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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