Jason McNeil Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 With the addition of the Gotway lineup, I'm a bit concerned that number of available choices could be overwhelming, especially for new buyers. V3Pro, 4x color options V5F, 2x color options + V5Fwith 2x color options V8, just in black KS16: 3x battery options + 4x color choices & now the KS16S variant! KS18: 4x battery options ACM: up to 3x battery options ACMs+: 2x battery options MSuper 3: 4x battery options Monster 2x color options & 2x battery options L6 Scooter: 2x color options Lively Scooter, just one, thankfully By trying to keep it simple and stocking just one or two battery capacities of each Wheel type still results in 30 unique different model/color/battery combinations! Question: do you guys think that beyond 1kWh battery size that another 20% capacity is worth another 25% in cost? The reason why is because GW offer the ACM 1300Wh at a pretty decent price but the 1600Wh is significantly more expensive because the unit cell price for the Sanyo GAs is quite a lot steeper than the LGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 33 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: Question: do you guys think that beyond 1kWh battery size that another 20% capacity is worth another 25% in cost? The reason why is because GW offer the ACM 1300Wh at a pretty decent price but the 1600Wh is significantly more expensive because the unit cell price for the Sanyo GAs is quite a lot steeper than the LGs. I went with the 1300Wh model as the distance it offers between charges were more than sufficient for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 43 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: With the addition of the Gotway lineup, I'm a bit concerned that number of available choices could be overwhelming, especially for new buyers. V3Pro, 4x color options V5F, 2x color options + V5Fwith 2x color options V8, just in black KS16: 3x battery options + 4x color choices & now the KS16S variant! KS18: 4x battery options ACM: up to 3x battery options ACMs+: 2x battery options MSuper 3: 4x battery options Monster 2x color options & 2x battery options L6 Scooter: 2x color options Lively Scooter, just one, thankfully By trying to keep it simple and stocking just one or two battery capacities of each Wheel type still results in 30 unique different model/color/battery combinations! Question: do you guys think that beyond 1kWh battery size that another 20% capacity is worth another 25% in cost? The reason why is because GW offer the ACM 1300Wh at a pretty decent price but the 1600Wh is significantly more expensive because the unit cell price for the Sanyo GAs is quite a lot steeper than the LGs. Of course I can only offer one mans opinion (mine), but I am now opting for the largest capacity that I can get. This is because I love to ride long distances and not have to be wondering if I have enough juice to make it - range anxiety. Many people are buying the MSuper V3s+ (1600wh), but Gotway sells a 1300wh version too, right? Is the price difference between those two the same as the ACM? Maybe the ACM is unique in that because of space limitations they needed to go with the more expensive cells, whereas the MSuper has the space to use regular cells? I'm pretty sure I'm going to upgrade my 820wh MSuper to the 1600wh version. I won't buy the 1300wh one. Maybe for the enthusiast wheels, offer the highest capacity for each voltage version - just a thought. When someone is considering the very expensive high end wheels, they are probably more willing to pay the premium for the extra capacity. I'll close by saying, "Choice is a wonderful thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 BTW, I bought the 1300wh version of the ACM, but at the time 1600wh was nowhere to be seen. I know of three people who recently purchased the 1600wh ACM because now it's available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Are there any plans to bring lower-end wheels like the IPS line? The Lhotz with its wide wheel was my first choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetpapi Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Double wheel design should go away in my opinion, unless there is a justifiable demand, which I doubt. All other wheels you carry are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Customizable options are always nice, but I wonder if it makes business sense though to stock lower or mid-range items that may not sell that well. People always have that need for the latest and greatest, and with these EUCs most likely do some research for the wheels they really want. Maybe breaking them down into groups for beginner/intermediate/expert and medium/long-range might be good to help people distinguish between the wheels. In addition maybe light/medium/heavy weight classifications would help in decision making. Maybe offer the lower end models, but put a caveat that they need to be special ordered and take longer for delivery. That way if someone really wants to save a few bucks by going down a level, you can still provide it to them, but they will just have to wait for it. Say for a buyer who wants a wheel to commute to the train and to work and back who needs to carry it, unless they are a pro-weight lifter, they might not want to lift a 44 pound behemoth around even though it has the range they want. Maybe incorporate a flow chart template on the website asking questions about range needed, maximum weight expectations, agility, rider experience, etc and then from that data show a list of wheels that fit the rider? Maybe ordering some parts to customize the wheel at your facility might be better. Ever see how Dell computers are made to order and only assembled once the order is placed? That way it's cheaper to stock various shell colours and batteries rather than have complete units sitting around waiting to be bought. You would also have greater control of quality checks during assembly along with testing to avoid DOA shipments. How many people here who don't solder / know about electronics would prefer to have a trusted seller deal with all that stuff rather than do it themselves? If someone is paying over $2000 for a wheel, I don't think they want to have to mess with it to ensure it is safe. It would be like paying the big bucks for a Porsche to race around in, but then having to take apart the engine to make sure it doesn't blow up. I think people generally want it to work from the get go considering the money they are sinking into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 @Jason McNeil your topic 'Too Many Wheels' smacked me in the face! It could easily have been titled "I Have Too Many Wheels"! I myself love the numerous brands and models to select from as it keeps the competition constantly pushing the R&D envelope striving to outperform their peers! I only wish improvements in safety were factored into the increased performance/ design paradigm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddylaz Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 @Jason McNeil is the v5f+ speed upgrade dead in the water? If so, no big deal but sometimes I do lust after a coupla extra mph. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer" Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 One of the reasons I just created the 2040ACM was the hope that it would encourage Gotway to make a 84v 2400wh version of the ACM.To me,that would be the "ultimate wheel". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abinder3 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Jeff, How much does your 2040ACM weigh ? Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swvision Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 2 hours ago, jrkline said: One of the reasons I just created the 2040ACM was the hope that it would encourage Gotway to make a 84v 2400wh version of the ACM.To me,that would be the "ultimate wheel". I think so too jeff. The ACM is the best wheel ever made in my personal opinion but it could use more range and power. I checked on what you said in Griffith Park about the batteries being 2900mah panasonics in our wheels. If they just changed the batteries to the 3400mah- 3500mah panasonics then we would have a lot more range, or perhaps even the 2170 that teslas coming out with. Speculation"Tesla's new 2170 battery cells reported to have 5175 mAh capacity - an increase of 52% from the current 3400 mAh of the 18650 cell. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 @Marty Backe there is no difference in the ACM and V3 cell types...space available is also the same on both wheels... 680wh/1300wh are 64/120 of 2900mah cells, which is a good amount cheaper than the 64/120 cells in the 820/1600wh used 3500mah Sanyo Cell. Hell knows why they first only offer the 1300wh ACM...perhaps they need to balance theiir warehouse :-) So it comes to nearly 300bucks difference for the 300wh difference in the 1300/1600wh version. Normally with this amount of money you get a bigger Wh jump :-) @Jason McNeil i personally would on all versions go with the 1300wh type, as -the power/drawable amps are the same -its just a bit more range - and the "real" , not rounded wh numbers are 1287wh and 1554wh...so not even 300....and just only 267 difference in wh :-) nitpicking, haha - to much price difference But i guess you will not get a clear vote on that question, as i understand that range is all for some :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I suspect this forum tends to be biased towards torque and travel distance -- i.e., larger battery capacity and motors, thus fat and heavy. I personally set priorities of (1) carry-ability (thus my choices of IPS Zero and Inmotion V8), (2) torque, and (3) minimum travel of 20 miles. The larger Gotways and KS's are I'm sure wonderful to ride, but they are noisy compared to the V8 (and especially Zero which is dead quiet), and they are fat and heavy, so a bit of a chore to carry. The V8 is slim has the "defeat" button under the handle, and a trolly handle builtin, so even at 30 lbs is very carry-able. I also think the larger the wheel, the more difficult that they are to turn and manipulate at low speed. The beauty of the Zero is that it is very flickable; you can 180 without being particularly good. That said, it is best for flat surfaces, and I would not take the Zero off road. Just my personal biases, but these probably will dictate future purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: - and the "real" , not rounded wh numbers are 1287wh and 1554wh...so not even 300....and just only 267 difference in wh :-) nitpicking, haha With my weight, that "just only 267Wh difference" means about 20km (264Wh Firewheel could carry me between about 20-25 km, depending on temperature, uphills etc) 5 minutes ago, Chris Westland said: I suspect this forum tends to be biased towards torque and travel distance -- i.e., larger battery capacity and motors, thus fat and heavy. I personally set priorities of (1) carry-ability (thus my choices of IPS Zero and Inmotion V8), (2) torque, and (3) minimum travel of 20 miles. The larger Gotways and KS's are I'm sure wonderful to ride, but they are noisy compared to the V8 (and especially Zero which is dead quiet), and they are fat and heavy, so a bit of a chore to carry. The V8 is slim has the "defeat" button under the handle, and a trolly handle builtin, so even at 30 lbs is very carry-able. I also think the larger the wheel, the more difficult that they are to turn and manipulate a low speed. Just my personal biases, but these probably will dictate future purchases. The trend seems to be bigger and bigger battery packs, but there's probably some "cut-off point" where it makes no sense anymore. Like who's going to ride, say, 150km (about 95 miles) in one go? Of course the actual range depends on many factors, but when you start measuring the battery packs in kilowatthours, the range probably isn't that much of an issue anymore, but the wheel weigh and size starts to be a burden. Personally my riding is just (mostly) recreational, so long range is a plus, but I doubt my feet could take something like 5 hours of riding in one go Not to mention that, being light-weight myself (<60kg), wrestling a 20+kg wheel might become quite problematic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 @Jason McNeil You could make an additional 2D grid overview (aka "all the wheels we sell" picture). Sort the wheels by tire size (Luffy to Monster) and by manufacturer, and distinguish between models, not battery sizes (and colors etc, just show there are battery and other options - so all ACMs under one item, all msupers, etc). Then everything will be much more clear, a max of 5 or so models per manufacturer for 3 and a half manufacturers. As for your question, sell what makes economical sense to you. You have to know. I bought my 1300Wh ACM because 1600 was not available then. I'm pretty sure otherwise I would have paid even more for the 1600Wh version (even if I was already above budget). It's a peace of mind thing, even if you're unlikely to need it (or you could plan around it). I don't think anybody is going to complain about options, just don't confuse first time interested people with too many wheels, make it as simple as possible (maybe make your original model comparison picture just show some "example wheels", not all - and "sort" by price, just like you did until now). So one model with different options (battery, etc) should just be one item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 5 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Many people are buying the MSuper V3s+ (1600wh), but Gotway sells a 1300wh version too, right? Is the price difference between those two the same as the ACM? On speedyfeet, the msuper V3 820Wh is more expensive than the V3s 1300Wh, and the former uses higher capacity cells! Not sure if that price is due to batteries, but possibly! Crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 15 minutes ago, esaj said: With my weight, that "just only 267Wh difference" means about 20km (264Wh Firewheel could carry me between about 20-25 km, depending on temperature, uphills etc) The trend seems to be bigger and bigger battery packs, but there's probably some "cut-off point" where it makes no sense anymore. Like who's going to ride, say, 150km (about 95 miles) in one go? Of course the actual range depends on many factors, but when you start measuring the battery packs in kilowatthours, the range probably isn't that much of an issue anymore, but the wheel weigh and size starts to be a burden. Personally my riding is just (mostly) recreational, so long range is a plus, but I doubt my feet could take something like 5 hours of riding in one go Not to mention that, being light-weight myself (<60kg), wrestling a 20+kg wheel might become quite problematic... I have a Monster. It weighs a ton. I only lift it (with my engine hoist) to put it in my truck when going for a ride someplace distant. So whether it weighs 70 pounds or a 100 pounds, it's a "don't care" with me. Range is king with something like the Monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, esaj said: With my weight, that "just only 267Wh difference" means about 20km (264Wh Firewheel could carry me between about 20-25 km, depending on temperature, uphills etc) Yip...but the thing is it are 267 of 1300wh :-) this 1300wh are bringing me about 80km ...as i need about 16wh per km. As i have never rode more than 50-60 km in one trip, i dont need more! exactly like you said...who is going to stand such a long time on a EUC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 17 hours ago, swvision said: I think so too jeff. The ACM is the best wheel ever made in my personal opinion but it could use more range and power. I checked on what you said in Griffith Park about the batteries being 2900mah panasonics in our wheels. If they just changed the batteries to the 3400mah- 3500mah panasonics then we would have a lot more range, or perhaps even the 2170 that teslas coming out with. Speculation"Tesla's new 2170 battery cells reported to have 5175 mAh capacity - an increase of 52% from the current 3400 mAh of the 18650 cell. " So, the 18650 is 18 millimeters wide by 65 millimeters long, does that mean the 2170 Tesla battery cell is 21 millimeters wide by 70 millimeters long? That is a significantly larger battery cell. Maybe that is the wave of the future, larger cells but fewer cell to make a battery pack with more power. Cool new avatar, I wish I could put that as my screensaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: Yip...but the thing is it are 267 of 1300wh :-) this 1300wh are bringing me about 80km ...as i need about 16wh per km. As i have never rode more than 50-60 km in one trip, i dont need more! exactly like you said...who is going to stand such a long time on a EUC? I do 50km in my sleep now. I've done 90km a couple of times with the Monster. I guess you can never have enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: On speedyfeet, the msuper V3 820Wh is more expensive than the V3s 1300Wh, and the former uses higher capacity cells! Not sure if that price is due to batteries, but possibly! Crazy! if you click on the 1300 V3 it gets to a higher price than the 820wh....(same warranty) the cheaper 1300wh v3 price is the price with "low" warranty...and not available ....while with the expensive warranty you can buy it ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Oh, ok... I was confused. The site simply lists the wrong price for the 820. 5 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: As i have never rode more than 50-60 km in one trip, i dont need more! exactly like you said...who is going to stand such a long time on a EUC? You're right, who goes 50 km in one go. But: as soon as you get out of the flat (mountains!) suddenly a high capacity battery makes a difference again. 20% more is 20% more, and in mountains you can realistically use the bigger battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 16 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I do 50km in my sleep now. I've done 90km a couple of times with the Monster. I guess you can never have enough Haha...Monster doesn't count...its from outer space and more car than EUC ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 9 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: Haha...Monster doesn't count...its from outer space and more car than EUC ;-) Haha, I guess that's why they call it the Monster. Monster smash! Monster smasn Kingsong! Monster smash all puny wheels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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