InMotion V8 tried to kill me Suddenly

[CaptainKBLS]

Ha!  Thank you for reporting.

This sounds like the same problem I had and posted "Did my V8 just shutoff on me??"

I'm glad you're okay.

What is with this cutoff?  Why can't the program slows you down instead of just cutoff?  I never figured out what really is the problem.

I only ride my ACM16 and the kids ride the V8 and it freaks me out every time.  That's why I yell at them to bring the speed down less than 8mph when they ride.

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, DavidM said:

I don't know about you but I would expect my wheel to NEVER shutdown when I drive it, what ever I do.

You'll be needing to adjust your expectations  All wheels cut off at some point if pushed beyond their limits - it's just one of the hazards inherent in this design, but it's only a problem if the rider is not aware of it, and continues to accelerate beyond the warnings the wheel will try to give them. Of course if you've turned off all the warnings, and aren't experienced enough to know what is a safe speed on all terrains, then a crash will be almost inevitable.

CBR

[CaptainKBLS]

18 hours ago, DavidM said:

Hello people, I reply to this message thread because today I experienced the same thing with my V8. I did more than 1000 km with it so far without a problem, but today, as in my worst nightmares, it turned back against me: the power cut off for no reason at almost full speed (probably around 25km/h?). 

This is really scary... It would have happened after 200 km with the wheel or less, I think I would have broken my neck, but being experienced I was able to start running (faster than I ever did) and fell on the side of the road on a square meter of grass...

I think I was accelerating strongly but it's not the first time for sure, and certainly not a good reason...

The low temperature can't be the problem because I live in... Singapore (must be 30 degres celsius - 86 F, and the internal temperature as indicated in the app is 39 C - roughly 100 F).

Did the diagnosis in the app: sensors ok. Uploaded the error log: no idea what it can be used for...

I feel I can't trust the wheel anymore... To be honest, I think it happened another time, when starting with the wheel at the subway exit: eventhough the wheel was on in the subway when I was pushing it with the trolley, when I put the trolley back in and stepped on the pedals I fell because the wheel had turned off... I wasn't quite sure of what happened and thought that I might have turned it off without noticing while pushing back the trolley handle... but after today's incident, I think it may have been the same kind of random shutdown...

 

Among the assumptions for the root cause, I have been thinking about the button under the handle of the wheel which is made to disable the drive when you have to lift the wheel: very practical, but what if, after being used so many times, the button was becoming.... capricious...

Not sure what to do now... A checkup at a local professional service provider for sure!

Any ideas / feedback welcome!

DEJA VU!

[DavidM]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

You'll be needing to adjust your expectations  All wheels cut off at some point if pushed beyond their limits - it's just one of the hazards inherent in this design, but it's only a problem if the rider is not aware of it, and continues to accelerate beyond the warnings the wheel will try to give them. Of course if you've turned off all the warnings, and aren't experienced enough to know what is a safe speed on all terrains, then a crash will be almost inevitable.

CBR

After more than 2000 km (1000 with a Ninebot One E+, and 1200+ with the V8, I was considering myself a bit experienced. I have ridden in all kinds of conditions. I fell several times for different reasons. But the cut off while going straight on a flat road.... that's different.

I don't know what warning you are talking about, beyond tilting, which did not occur.

[Mono]

@DavidM summarizing your posts, you were accelerating strongly at a speed of 25km/h with low battery charge status. And now you wonder why the wheel gave up under you?

Edited September 17, 2017 by Mono

[Mono]

6 hours ago, DavidM said:

I don't know about you but I would expect my wheel to NEVER shutdown when I drive it, what ever I do.

I agree. How could you differentiate between a shutdown and an outlean due to lack of torque?

Edited September 17, 2017 by Mono

[DavidM]

 

59 minutes ago, Mono said:

@DavidM summarizing your posts, you were accelerating strongly at a speed of 25km/h with low battery charge status. And now you wonder why the wheel gave up under you?

Yes, exactly.

It is written nowhere that if you are accelerating and reaching the speed of 25 km/h and your battery is under 30% the wheel will simply stop to teach you to be more careful - if you are still alive!

If you find it normal and are still riding eWheels you must be suicidal.

Beside, I did nothing different than during the last 1000 km so I don't understand why suddenly it happened.

i'd like to see what this EV market would become if the retailers would explain to the future clients that "In some occasions, for instance if your battery is low,, the wheel will shutdown, especially when you reach high speed, and it's absolutely normal, so be prepared"

[Mono]

2 hours ago, DavidM said:

I don't know what warning you are talking about, beyond tilting, which did not occur.

You may have got acoustic warnings. I usually cannot hear them because I wear headphones 

[Mono]

25 minutes ago, DavidM said:

It is written nowhere that if you are accelerating and reaching the speed of 25 km/h and your battery is under 30% the wheel will simply stop to teach you to be more careful - if you are still alive!

If you find it normal and are still riding eWheels you must be suicidal.

Beside, I did nothing different than during the last 1000 km so I don't understand why suddenly it happened.

Then I am suicidal since 6000+km, but so far I haven't been successful. I find an overlean under these conditions not very surprising, because I know about the physical limitations of electric motors at speed. I wouldn't find it "normal" though if the wheel just switches off. Hence it would be important to make this distinction.

I also would have an explanation to offer why this did not happen to you before: your riding confidence increases over time. Then there will inevitably be a first occasion which brings you at the limit or over the top of what the wheel has to offer.

I totally agree with you that the (physically inevitable) deterioration of excess torque with increasing speed is quite a problematic feature for a self-balancing consumer product.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Mono

[DavidM]

I would prefer that I did something wrong because that would mean I can prevent it and the wheel is not at stake, but I am not 100% convinced.

does this kind of things happen with an electric scooter? Or car?

[Mono]

4 hours ago, DavidM said:

does this kind of things happen with an electric scooter? Or car?

I assume that this is a rhetorical question.

What you IMHO see the wrong way is to think you can just lean in and assume the wheel will take it. WIth the exception of emergency braking you should IMHO always be aware of the feedback you get when you are pushing and expect that you don't get the expected push back from the wheel. In any case, this is what I do.

EDIT: if on the other hand the wheel just turned off (which is not clear to me so far) it would be a completely different story as the above said wouldn't be a solution.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Mono

[Keith]

3 hours ago, DavidM said:

I would prefer that I did something wrong because that would mean I can prevent it and the wheel is not at stake, but I am not 100% convinced.

You did. You ran at high speed on low battery with the warning bleeps turned off. I, and the others replying here are astonished that you are finding this a surprise as it has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum and, indeed we have an entire section discussing wearing safety gear. 

Just to reiterate what has been said many times before:

• torque is what balances you and supports your weight.
• You lean forward, the motor torque tries to push you back upright
• that torque, almost as a byproduct, accelerates you.
• if you continue to lean forward, the wheel has only two options: accelerate you or drop you on your face.
• All electric motors have maximum torque at zero RPM. That torque drops linearly with speed, becoming zero at the wheels absolute maximum speed under no load.
• so, the faster you go, the less torque there is to keep you balanced.
• Lean a bit further forward, hit a bump, go up a slightly steeper hill at maximum speed and you can easily exceed the torque left to keep you balanced. Do that with a low battery where both voltage and current will be significantly lowered and you have removed a stinking big chunk of that safety margin.
• The wheel does not know how much you weigh so it cannot absolutely know how fast it can safely go. It has to make assumptions and those tend to be Asian assumptions where riders are much lighter. in fact a wheel whose app asks you how much you weigh and adjusts its safety margins according to weight, temperature and battery state would be a huge leap forward in safety (except many people would lie in order to go faster ?).
• The only options available to slow you down are sounds (beeps, etc) and tiltback but tilting back takes even more torque. A low battery or heavy rider can fool the software and leave the tiltback until there isn't the torque to do it.
• Riding an EUC safely, like any vehicle, requires an understanding of its limits. You wouldn't charge up to a stop sign at 30 MPH on a wet road in a car and expect it to stop in 10 feet - that is just as much a safety limit as not pushing an EUC at high speed with a low battery. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Keith

[Stan Onymous]

13 hours ago, DavidM said:

It is written nowhere that if you are accelerating and reaching the speed of 25 km/h and your battery is under 30% the wheel will simply stop to teach you to be more careful - if you are still alive!

If you find it normal and are still riding eWheels you must be suicidal.

Beside, I did nothing different than during the last 1000 km so I don't understand why suddenly it happened.

i'd like to see what this EV market would become if the retailers would explain to the future clients that "In some occasions, for instance if your battery is low,, the wheel will shutdown, especially when you reach high speed, and it's absolutely normal, so be prepared"

All of this is covered in the users manual and the app. The manual is all of 10 pages double spaced, so Kudos for you for not bothering to read about what you plunked down a grand for. Actually the part you refer to is only a paragraph. Ha! I wonder who else has the blame for your reading skills?

eWheels is probably the best full disclosure SCV retailer on the market and anyone who has gone to the website knows this. Their CS is beyond friendly and they have been knowledgable and helpful for every purchase I have made there. In fact, they stress safety on the details section of every SCV. You have shown much more blame in your mishap than anyone else for your failure to prepare yourself for something that is brand new to you. You showed no curiousity to read the manual, and when things went wrong, you decided to blame others rather than do the least to investigate your possible mistakes.

So you learned a valuable lesson the hard way, instead of following the directions for use. You weren't hurt, only scared, and rest assured, you were 100% at fault. The EUC's manual tried to warn you as seen below ⬇️

[caelus]

20 hours ago, DavidM said:

One thing is true: the battery was Low.

Does the V8 give any alarm on "overload"? My Gotway MCM V3 does give an overload alarm if high current pulls the voltage below certain value. Works quite reliably to prevent you from overleaning on lower battery levels. As far as I've read here, recent Gotway wheels wont't cut out on low voltage, fortunately (shanted low-voltage protection). Some brands seem to cut out though:

On 29.6.2015 at 8:56 PM, esaj said:

From what I've heard, Ninebot has already removed the overdischarge protection entirely from their BMS (if there ever even was one), as did Gotway on more recent models... Solowheel never had it? InMotion doesn't have it?

So maybe your V8 battery did cut out on low voltage?

As you did not get a tilt back I suppose that you weren't fast enough for the tilt back speed limit, let alone a speed-based cut out. 

 

[Stan Onymous]

You can ride out the tiltback on a V8 going downhill because it is so natural, but you do so at your own risk as stated. It probably did tiltback as he stated, and when ignored, it lost its torque. Once on its side, the V8 turns itself off after a few seconds, so it would look like a cut out as well.

You did what car enthusiasts call an understeer or oversteer cornering error. You cant blame the car manufacturer for car understeer on a front wheel drive or oversteer on a rear wheel drive around a corner. You have to listen to the machine and determine the best route to avoid the limitations of the machine. Its that simple, and you are learning, so good for you!

[Marty Backe]

20 hours ago, DavidM said:

Hi Criull,

I don't know about you but I would expect my wheel to NEVER shutdown when I drive it, what ever I do.

One thing is true: the battery was Low.

I downloaded the log in the Inmotion app but I don't know what to do with it, it is not accessible. It must be on Inmotion cloud, now, and I suspect it is only meant for after sales Engineers to check. I will contact them to see.

If you really contemplate how these wheels work, it's literally impossible for the wheel to never shutdown whatever you do.

The cardinal rule of riding is to be mellow when the battery is low. Heavy acceleration near the top-end speed of the wheel when the battery is low is really asking for trouble (unfortunately what happened to you).

Keep the faith in your wheel. There's nothing wrong with it. Just adjust your riding technique and you'll be fine. 

[caelus]

17 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

... it's literally impossible for the wheel to never shutdown whatever you do.

Marty, a wheel might be unable to balance you if you overlean. But there's no inherent necessity that a controller has to cut out the power in such circumstances. Or as Chriull has put it here: "i don't really know why the controller cuts off before this max speed is reached."

[Marty Backe]

22 minutes ago, caelus said:

Marty, a wheel might be unable to balance you if you overlean. But there's no inherent necessity that a controller has to cut out the power in such circumstances. Or as Chriull has put it here: "i don't really know why the controller cuts off before this max speed is reached."

I really don't see the difference between no longer balancing and a cutout. In both cases you fall straight forward.

The motor cutouts out during an overlean because it's expending everything it has to keep the wheel under you - huge amperes of current. When there are no more amps something has to give. Either it shutdowns immediately of the board goes up in flames.

[caelus]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

Either it shutdowns immediately of the board goes up in flames.

It can simply sustain the current (until overheating).

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I really don't see the difference between no longer balancing and a cutout. In both cases you fall straight forward.

If the required torque > delivered torque then it will gradually give way to your lean, your lean angle increases slowly and eventually you'll step off and fall.  But if the controller suddenly cuts the power off, then you will crash immediately and much harder with almost no time to react. 

[IPS Malta]

1 hour ago, caelus said:

It can simply sustain the current (until overheating).

If the required torque > delivered torque then it will gradually give way to your lean, your lean angle increases slowly and eventually you'll step off and fall.  But if the controller suddenly cuts the power off, then you will crash immediately and much harder with almost no time to react. 

Have you ever considered a "stop balancing situation" or "cut-out" that it's also a form of safety measure? EUC inertia will keep it long going with high speed and possibly balancing sideways on its own because of rotational equilibrium.... or what you call it... I forgot what was that called in Physics. If that happens when you lean too forward and you fall in front, the wheel will ride on you crashing into your head... that would be deadly. The wheel can also crash into passers-by if it won't cut-out. If it doesn't "cut-out", you're still .going to faceplant anyway. As many of you stated above, an EUC has its limits and you need to respect them.

In my sales, I always stress that we (or someone experienced) should give training. All training given to the younger ones tried to see its limit while we had to slow them down and explaining to them. If they don't take the training they will have to take full responsibility. Never the less, trained or not, they are always responsible but with training, they are more knowledgeable in riding it safely and respecting the others.

[DavidM]

7 hours ago, Mono said:

I assume that this is a rhetorical question.

What you IMHO see the wrong way is to think you can just lean in and assume the wheel will take it. WIth the exception of emergency braking you should IMHO always be aware of the feedback you get when you are pushing and expect that you don't get the expected push back from the wheel. In any case, this is what I do.

EDIT: if on the other hand the wheel just turned off (which is not clear to me so far) it would be a completely different story as the above said wouldn't be a solution.

Yes that's what happened : the wheel stopped, it just went off, simply. Conditions were not special, as far as I remember (speed, me leaning, ... nothing unusual)

[DavidM]

4 hours ago, Stan Onymous said:

All of this is covered in the users manual and the app. The manual is all of 10 pages double spaced, so Kudos for you for not bothering to read about what you plunked down a grand for. Actually the part you refer to is only a paragraph. Ha! I wonder who else has the blame for your reading skills?

eWheels is probably the best full disclosure SCV retailer on the market and anyone who has gone to the website knows this. Their CS is beyond friendly and they have been knowledgable and helpful for every purchase I have made there. In fact, they stress safety on the details section of every SCV. You have shown much more blame in your mishap than anyone else for your failure to prepare yourself for something that is brand new to you. You showed no curiousity to read the manual, and when things went wrong, you decided to blame others rather than do the least to investigate your possible mistakes.

So you learned a valuable lesson the hard way, instead of following the directions for use. You weren't hurt, only scared, and rest assured, you were 100% at fault. The EUC's manual tried to warn you as seen below ⬇️

Thanks, it confirms what I said: what happened to me is not covered on this page.

no tilt up, I was not over leaning, no over speed... 

nowhere here it is said there is a risk that the wheel will turn off.

but thanks anyway.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

What's your charging routine?  Do you charge up to 100% and allow the charger to continue charging sometimes to balance charge the cells?  I wonder if you have some bad cells in your pack that aren't pulling their weight at higher speeds.

There is an unwritten fact that a few bad cells in the bunch can lead to rider ejection.  Just ask @noisycarlos.  I've always hoped for smarter battery tech that can monitor individual cells for out of spec events.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

[Stan Onymous]

19 hours ago, DavidM said:

Yes, exactly.

It is written nowhere that if you are accelerating and reaching the speed of 25 km/h and your battery is under 30% the wheel will simply stop to teach you to be more careful - if you are still

I thought you said this is what you did? Now you say you did nothing wrong and were not accelerating?

and yes the rest is covered in Legal section 7. So it is covered.

and just incase you forgot what you wrote, here it is from the earlier post...

"I think I was accelerating strongly but it's not the first time for sure, and certainly not a good reason..."

so if you were accelerating at 30% power or less and you reached 25kph which is the top speed at that point, and you think you should be going faster, you will lean over the tiltback, not really feel it try to press on and no more power to balance you. I have no idea why people turn off the warnings anyway.

You still havent even read the top paragraph on that manual that I just posted earlier. You did exactly what it told you not to do and you missed the point that said if you do ignore these warnings and push it after it gets to 40% you are the cause of the fault. Now grow up and learn something about the machine instead of blaming others for your misdeeds. It is very irresponsible of you and @caelus to suggest otherwise and it negates the REAL information written for YOUR benefit in the manual.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Stan Onymous

[WARPed1701D]

4 hours ago, caelus said:

Does the V8 give any alarm on "overload"?

Yes it does. Mine has shouted at me several times for this. Normally at higher speeds with a lower battery and when I got a big bump/depression in the road. Looking at the log from wheellog confirms high current draw at speed alert. If the warnings are turned off then obviously you won't know this alert was given. It hasn't so far be accompanied by tiltback which makes sense as the act of causing tiltback would increase the current draw even further and risk a cutout when one wasn't necessary. these events have also only happened on bumps so the high current event is over almost as soon as in begun so there is no time to cause tiltback. Such overload conditions on a hill might be different.