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Am a brand new owner of Mini Pro.  Very impressed from the first unpacking and ride.  An issue I would like some feedback on is the battery capacity.

I have only charged unit three times.  When light on charging brick turns green I unplug.  On checking in App under Battery information, it shows 100% full charge with a 25 kms range.

However, under battery capacity on top it shows only 4806 mAh while the total capacity of battery indicated is supposed to be 5700 mAh.

I have seen a utube video where some guy indicated the same issue.  I did call Segway Support today and explained this to the technician.  He did tell me that he has had some other owners 

of the Mini Pro with the same question.  His answer was that the App is indicating an erroneous capacity reading and this will be addressed in a firmware upgrade shortly.  Hmmmm.

 

I would be very interested to hear from other owners what their battery capacity reads after a complete charge.   It  is Winter or I would do some long rides to test the range I am getting on a supposed full charge.  I could ride a circle indoors but that may take a while.

Thanks for any input.

Tom

 

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15 hours ago, Fastskis said:

Am a brand new owner of Mini Pro.  Very impressed from the first unpacking and ride.  An issue I would like some feedback on is the battery capacity.

I have only charged unit three times.  When light on charging brick turns green I unplug.  On checking in App under Battery information, it shows 100% full charge with a 25 kms range.

However, under battery capacity on top it shows only 4806 mAh while the total capacity of battery indicated is supposed to be 5700 mAh.

I have seen a utube video where some guy indicated the same issue.  I did call Segway Support today and explained this to the technician.  He did tell me that he has had some other owners 

of the Mini Pro with the same question.  His answer was that the App is indicating an erroneous capacity reading and this will be addressed in a firmware upgrade shortly.  Hmmmm.

 

I would be very interested to hear from other owners what their battery capacity reads after a complete charge.   It  is Winter or I would do some long rides to test the range I am getting on a supposed full charge.  I could ride a circle indoors but that may take a while.

Thanks for any input.

Tom

 

Try to leave it on charge a little longer - til all 5 segments on battery indicator blinking. When the charger goes green it still charging but at much lower wattage rate (to balance the individual cells in battery pack).

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My battery capacity after a full charge shows 19 miles, although I have been able to go over 20 miles on a full charge.  This 20+ mile ride included riding up and over the Ringling bridge in Sarasota twice.  The problem with only getting 15 miles seems to be from the charger that comes with the minipro.  I went online and ordered a backup charger to keep in my desk drawer at work.  

Every time I charged up my minipro with the new charger, it would show my range as being 19 miles when I'd first start out.  When I'd go back and charge up with the original charger, it would only give me 15 miles.  I experimented back and forth with the 2 chargers numerous times, and got the same result each time.  Now granted, I didn't try riding the full 19 miles it would show because I was worried that it was giving me a bad reading.  Finally I just said screw it and tried riding until the battery died, to see if it was legitimate.  I kept it on flat terrain the first time, and did 20 miles.  Since then, I consistently get 20 or more miles unless I'm doing lots of bridge climbs or have strong headwinds.  

One thing I will add is that I do not know what this will do to battery life long term.  I guess it is possible that it should shorten the battery life.  There's been many times that I wonder if there was a reason that Segway shipped the minipro with a charger that doesn't utilize the full capability of the battery.

Also, I'm not going to promote the company selling the charger on here because I do not work for them and am not trying to sell anything.  Just want to share my experiences in the hopes that it may help anyone else.

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45 minutes ago, Bradford said:

One thing I will add is that I do not know what this will do to battery life long term.  I guess it is possible that it should shorten the battery life.  There's been many times that I wonder if there was a reason that Segway shipped the minipro with a charger that doesn't utilize the full capability of the battery.

Your guess is correct. Not charging the battery to 100% increases the life time of the battery quite significantly. Roughly, charging to 90% gives twice the life time, charging to 80% gives four times the life time.

Edited by Mono
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12 minutes ago, Mono said:

Your guess is correct. Not charging the battery to 100% increases the life time of the battery quite significantly. Roughly, charging to 90% gives twice the life time, charging to 80% gives four times the life time.

But if not charged to 100% (and leaving on charger for an hour or so), the balancing process between individual cells will not be triggered either and that can lead to cell failure/undervoltage...  Not good..

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Balancing is apparently not necessary each time the battery is charged. It seems entirely sufficient to do it every 10th ar 20th charge cycle, see e.g.

http://hobby16.neowp.fr/2016/11/12/autocut-adjustment/

Balancing might also be already triggered before 100% charge is reached, that is, the original charger with a lower voltage probably still balances the battery.

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30 minutes ago, Mono said:

Your guess is correct. Not charging the battery to 100% increases the life time of the battery quite significantly. Roughly, charging to 90% gives twice the life time, charging to 80% gives four times the life time.

I Will certainly continue to update what I experience with degradation of battery life over continued use with the other charger.  To me the extra range is worth replacing the battery completely down the road, but I know others may not be of the same opinion, so I won't encourage it.  That's a choice only people can make on an individual basis.

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Yes, If we charge the battery 100% than battery life is reduced. and if we charge it to 80% or 90% battery life may increase. UL certified lithium batteries are used in the new models of hoverboard. Hoverboard amazon aslo started selling them. 

 

Now there are no such battery problems with the new models.

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i will definatly check on mine what the voltage is,a i ride quite a lot... i hate to ride on low battery as it slows down and then due to that u get them anoying blips...

Anyways is it better then to kill the battery and then so called fully charge it or is it okish to top it up quite often from 2bars up to 5 as I do that?

 

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7 hours ago, Wojciech Plocharski said:

i will definatly check on mine what the voltage is,a i ride quite a lot... i hate to ride on low battery as it slows down and then due to that u get them anoying blips...

Anyways is it better then to kill the battery and then so called fully charge it or is it okish to top it up quite often from 2bars up to 5 as I do that?

 

With Li-Ion you can charge the battery any time you want.

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On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 8:53 PM, Bradford said:

My battery capacity after a full charge shows 19 miles, although I have been able to go over 20 miles on a full charge.  This 20+ mile ride included riding up and over the Ringling bridge in Sarasota twice.  The problem with only getting 15 miles seems to be from the charger that comes with the minipro.  I went online and ordered a backup charger to keep in my desk drawer at work.  

Every time I charged up my minipro with the new charger, it would show my range as being 19 miles when I'd first start out.  When I'd go back and charge up with the original charger, it would only give me 15 miles.  I experimented back and forth with the 2 chargers numerous times, and got the same result each time.  Now granted, I didn't try riding the full 19 miles it would show because I was worried that it was giving me a bad reading.  Finally I just said screw it and tried riding until the battery died, to see if it was legitimate.  I kept it on flat terrain the first time, and did 20 miles.  Since then, I consistently get 20 or more miles unless I'm doing lots of bridge climbs or have strong headwinds.  

One thing I will add is that I do not know what this will do to battery life long term.  I guess it is possible that it should shorten the battery life.  There's been many times that I wonder if there was a reason that Segway shipped the minipro with a charger that doesn't utilize the full capability of the battery.

Also, I'm not going to promote the company selling the charger on here because I do not work for them and am not trying to sell anything.  Just want to share my experiences in the hopes that it may help anyone else.

can You post a picture of this charger specyfication?  is it 2.5A max?

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Are you still getting good results? I ordered one of these chargers today and look forward to testing it out. My minipro runs out of steam about a mile from my work. I can limp it the rest of the way there but it's very slow. An extra 5 miles would be amazing. 

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Posted (edited)

Well, it should be here today, so I'll see for myself :D

 

eta- I tried it and it really worked. 5700 mah and 19 miles in the app.

 

 

IMG_1796.PNG

 

Edited by kasenutty
Pics n info

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One more follow up before I move on.....

This charge is real. The range is real. I've put 20 miles on it since the new More4Mini charger, and the range and charge really work. 

Point of interest:

The max stated charge is 5700, but using this charger brings me up to 5770. While this is good, I do worry about the cells failing prematurely. I do think if the lifetime charge cycles are 2000 instead of 3000 or something, it's worth the extra performance. The added range is phenomenal if range is your goal. 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎26‎.‎03‎.‎2017 at 11:46 PM, kasenutty said:

One more follow up before I move on.....

This charge is real. The range is real. I've put 20 miles on it since the new More4Mini charger, and the range and charge really work. 

Point of interest:

The max stated charge is 5700, but using this charger brings me up to 5770. While this is good, I do worry about the cells failing prematurely. I do think if the lifetime charge cycles are 2000 instead of 3000 or something, it's worth the extra performance. The added range is phenomenal if range is your goal. 

What charger are we talking about? This one? Looks just like mine but without green ninebot logo

So if it matches the OEM chargers that came with my minipros, then I wouldn't worry about premature cells wear as it's totally normal capacity and they are quality cells.

Does your original charger look like this?: https://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/Original-Scooter-Charger-70w-63v-Adapter-Carregador-for-xiaomi-Scooter-Ninebot-Mini-Electric-Skateboard-Hover-Board/32775473813.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000017.2.eS0WNb

If yes, then it could be the reason, cause it's the charger for xiaomi mini (chinese Version with smaller capacity)

Edited by Vik's

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Yes, that's the one, but if you're getting such exceptional charging, I don't think you need it :D

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Just now, kasenutty said:

Yes, that's the one, but if you're getting such exceptional charging, I don't think you need it :D

And I don't need it ;) Just trying to find out why you are getting poor results with stock charger.

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I'm new to the forum (this is my first post) and I signed up to be able to chime in on this as I received a definitive explanation today and I think some of you will appreciate knowing.  I have learned quite a bit from reading threads (thank you) and would like to offer something back. 

I just bought my MiniPro last week and on mine a full charge quotes me a range of 25km and it only charges to 4813mah.  Seeing that some of you get 30km and 5700mah on yours, I at first bought into the theory that depending on how recently manufactured the particular unit is, some MiniPros only charge to 80% capacity in order to extend the number of charge cycles.  Tesla does this, so perhaps Segway have recently used the same principle.  Then reading on this forum that an aftermarket charger can extend the range, sent alarm bells ringing in my head, as I have experience working in the electric skateboard industry and when it comes to personal electric vehicles where weight reduction is important, it is not common practice to design a system like this to leave 20% of the capacity unused.

I contacted Segway about this and they told me that depending on the batch, some MiniPros display 25km range and around 4800mah charge and some display 30km and full charge but in actual fact all the units do charge fully.  It's just that some units have a BMS error that wrongly reports the charge level and an incorrect maximum range.  They also said that a firmware update is coming out very soon to fix this.

Judging by my experience riding it so far, their explanation does seem plausible.   

I'm sorry to say it but those who have bought an aftermarket charger and think you're getting more range out of your MiniPros may be disappointed, as if we go by what Segway tells us, it is not the case.  Having said that, this still does not explain why the aftermarket charger is able to correct the BMS error and get the BMS to report a more full charge.  The only way to properly test this would be to take one of the units that only appears to charge to 4800mah, charge it fully with the stock charger, then run it on a treadmill until it's completely out of power.  Then repeat the process with the aftermarket charger and compare the resulting ranges.  Testing it on the roads is not going to get accurate, definitive results as so many variables are at play.  I will be interested to see if my unit reports 30km and 5700mah when the update comes.

 

 

 

 

 

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So you think a firmware update will get them all on the same page? They've been spooning the firmware line for a long time now, even before the most recent update.

 

Lets consider this. If it works correctly on half of units all using the same firmware, how it could it be the firmware? It's the same. Is the hardware different? Something is different in these units or perhaps the firmware is randomly generated when updated. I don't believe ninebots answers. It doesn't make any sense.

 

Something is different and I don't believe it's different versions of the same firmware. 

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7 hours ago, RooMiniPro said:

Having said that, this still does not explain why the aftermarket charger is able to correct the BMS error and get the BMS to report a more full charge. 

Or the aftermarket charger overcharges the cells to above safe voltages. Can anyone check the output ("open circuit") voltage of the aftermarket charger and compare it to the stock charger?

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, kasenutty said:

So you think a firmware update will get them all on the same page? They've been spooning the firmware line for a long time now, even before the most recent update.

 

Lets consider this. If it works correctly on half of units all using the same firmware, how it could it be the firmware? It's the same. Is the hardware different? Something is different in these units or perhaps the firmware is randomly generated when updated. I don't believe ninebots answers. It doesn't make any sense.

 

Something is different and I don't believe it's different versions of the same firmware. 

The BMS has its own firmware that is separate from the main unit's firmware.  You can check the BMS firmware version under Battery Information.  My MiniPro is one of the batch that only charges to 4800mah and it's on firmware 1.4.  The BMS firmware is on 2.1.7.  If someone with a unit that charges to 5700mah on the stock charger could check their BMS firmware version and let us know, it might give us another clue.  Even the people using the aftermarket charger, if they could post their BMS firmware version that might help, provided that they are running MiniPro firmware 1.4.

 

 

Edited by RooMiniPro

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, esaj said:

Or the aftermarket charger overcharges the cells to above safe voltages. Can anyone check the output ("open circuit") voltage of the aftermarket charger and compare it to the stock charger?

I think this is unlikely.  Above safe voltage would be higher than 4.2v per cell and I have never seen a charger do that for standard cells .  There are high voltage cells on the market but these are special cells that require special chargers that charge to 4.35v.  The cells in our MiniPros are standard 3.7v nominal cells (4.2v fully charged).

It sounds likely to me that all our MiniPros charge to the same capacity, regardless of what the app tells us.  I did a test run with mine and got 29km on a single charge despite the app starting out by telling me I had 25km in the tank.  To find more clues it would be good if someone with a unit that only appears to charge to 4800mah would charge their battery fully, then remove the battery and check the voltage.  I would do it myself, but I'm not yet willing to remove the warranty stickers and void my warranty.  Perhaps someone here has already removed theirs and could check for us.  If the unit is truly only charging to 80%, the voltage should be lower.  To work it out you would take the voltage readout you get and divide it by the number of cells.  Does anyone know the number of cells?  If it's only charging to 80% the cell voltage should be around 3.9v rather than the 4.2 that it should be if 100% charged.  A simpler way is to just compare the fully charged voltage of a unit that reports 5700mah to a unit that reports 4800mah.

Edited by RooMiniPro
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I'll try pulling it off if I get around to it. I'm not a big warranty kinda guy, but I'm also pretty lazy so I might not get to it for a while :)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RooMiniPro said:

I think this is unlikely.  Above safe voltage would be higher than 4.2v per cell and I have never seen a charger do that for standard Lipos.  There are high voltage Lipos on the market but these are special cells that require special chargers that charge to 4.35v.  The lipos in our MiniPros are standard 3.7v nominal cells (4.2v fully charged).

I have Firewheel battery packs that use Sony US18650V3 -cells (NMC, lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide) that are said to be able to be charged up to around 4.3V, and the charger puts out 67.8V (which would make it 4.2375V per cell for 16S-packs, but could also be to overcome a voltage drop if there are actual diodes used for reverse polarity protection in the BMS). It's true that most typical chemistries are good only for up to around 4.2V, with the exception of LiFePo4 and Li-titanate.

At least the single-wheel -devices (EUCs) use 18650 cylindrical Li-Ion cells, and not actual  "LiPos", as in pouch cells (AFAIK real lithium polymer uses a solid electrolyte that isn't even commercially available yet, it was just used as a shorter marketing term for the Li-ion polymer -pouch cells and has stuck? But that's nitpicking ;))  Basically the difference is just the "packaging", similar chemistries are used on both (NMC, NCA, LCO etc whathaveyou, probably with manufacturer specific proprietary mixtures and additives that change the properties one way or the other)...

EDIT: Actually, if memory serves, there's one wheel that was at least rumored to use LiPo-pouches, the F-Wheel Dolphin.

 

Quote

It sounds likely to me that all our MiniPros charge to the same capacity, regardless of what the app tells us.  I did a test run with mine and got 29km on a single charge despite the app starting out by telling me I had 25km in the tank.  To find more clues it would be good if someone with a unit that only appears to charge to 4800mah would charge their battery fully, then remove the battery and check the voltage.  I would do it myself, but I'm not yet willing to remove the warranty stickers and void my warranty. Perhaps someone here has already removed theirs and could check for us. 

I was just curious as to whether the difference is due to voltage or just something to do with the app or whatever. Probably not worth it to tear down the thing just to check the voltages, unless you have other reasons to do it :P

 

Quote

If the unit is truly only charging to 80%, the voltage should be lower. 

That would also make sense, the original charger could charge the cells to a lower voltage to expand the lifetime. The last 0.1-0.2V or so usually doesn't add up that much capacity into the cell, as the voltage doesn't change linearly near full or near totally depleted, but the app could use a linear function to calculate the estimated mAh based on voltage alone, maybe with some averaging to prevent it from jumping up and down while riding.

 

Quote

To work it out you would take the voltage readout you get and divide it by the number of cells.  Does anyone know the number of cells?  If it's only charging to 80% the cell voltage should be around 3.9v rather than the 4.2 that it should be if 100% charged.  A simpler way is tom compare the fully charged voltages of a unit that reports 5700mah and a unit that reports 4800mah.

Not sure on the MiniPros, most wheels (as in electric unicycles) use 16S (around 67.2V at full charge), although some newer wheels use 20S (around 84V at full charge). Could be that they're 16S also, but I don't really know. Actually, considering that Ninebot One's use 15S unlike any other wheel, it could also be 15S. But better if someone actually checks instead of me making guesses :D

Edited by esaj
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Nitpicking, yes haha.  To be fair though you are right.  I just tend to call most lithium batteries Lipos for short.  I do a lot of RC model flying and I used to work in the PEV industry so the word "Lipo" is right up there with "the" and "ouch" in my list of most frequently used words haha.   I have since edited my post to say "cells" to avoid confusion. 

When I first got my MiniPro and saw that it only appeared to charge to roughly 80% capacity I was pleased about it.  I thought it was a design choice to greatly increase the number of charge cycles.  I was happy with my 25km+ range and was looking forward to getting many years out of this battery as a result of the 80% charge design.  But now I don't think it is the case.  I think we will solve this mystery fairly soon, either when the firmware update comes or someone who has no warranty stickers can take the battery off and measure it.

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