Jump to content

New dynamometer results from http://electrotransport.ru/


Chriull

Recommended Posts

On 3 декабря 2016 г. at 8:30 PM, Chriull said:

 

At low speeds, as already stated the charts are to be looked at very cautiousely. At his first test he blew the fuses of the KS so he started to accelerate slowly to about 10-15 km/h to let the wheel survive. I have no idea if this is still true for rhe second tests he performed. But as it looks especially for the v3+ 1600 he did a very "slow" start - imho.if the low speed power/torque values have any meaning can only be verified by asking in the russian forum - maybe @Cloudwants to do this? As hard it is to read the russion to german google tranlation imho there is no chance to get a sophisticated answer from an google translated german to russian question.

There is no test of an v5f+? You mean that the v5f+ has 30% more capacity? The power increase by higher battery capacity comes from more cells in parallel! (And in some cases like in the bonus section from the more powerfull cells)

By the high load from the dynamometer most wheels shut off before reaching max speed. If you look in the bonus part of the linked site you see the v8 with better batteries reaching higher speeds, but also burned fuses after the second test.. 

with most of the charts one see a nice declining slope after the max power peak. This is imho the proportional decreasing torque with higher speeds intrinsic to bldc motors. With the high loads of the dynamometer this could lead/leads easily anytime to an "overlean" resulting in an "cut-off" similar situation. Like in many faceplant reports here far below max speed of the euc's...

the forward pitch (acceleration) in this tests is done by hand. The difficult part at low speeds is, like mentioned above to accelerate not too much to not overpower the mainboard and inflict a premature shut off or burned fuse. Also at higher speeds after the max power output one imho also has to choose acceleration not too much to not inflict an "overlean" which is a quite difficult "borderline walk".

so this charts are mainly to reveal the max power - if he managed to get a nice pitch(acceleration) of the wheel this also results in a nice speed over max power(torque) at this speed chart. If not and there are lower powers before and after the absolute max power this _does not_ proove any shortcoming (powerwise) of the wheel! So quite some sensible interpretations are needed for every test run!

ps.: its about 2 o clock in the morning over here and i had a very "happy" evening before - so i did my best and hope that everything i tried to state is ok after some rereading - if not i'll reject this after some critical comments and/or after rereading this tomorrow ?

Pps: @Cloudmaybe you have enough time and like to translate this to russian and ask ecodrift for a veridication of my statements? I'd be quite interessted in his answer!

@Chriull yes i can translate and ask ecodrift, i should be able to get to it early this weel.

also if someone needs a translation of the russian text describing test results, i can help. Probably not going to translate everything, but if there is a specific question/ model they teste that one is interested in , let me know

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Slaughthammer said:

...After watching the video, I would guess that the cutoffs are induced by draining the battery unter cutoff voltage of the BMS. Seems that the batteries are not fit to provide 20+ amps for a longer time, thus voltage drops rather quickly and hence the shutoff.

Either this or some firmware cutoff to protect the board (overpower/current/temp protection...) kicked in.

Maybe he also just stopped the test by not accelerating anymore after max power has been reached, as like you said mainly max power was intended to be measured by this setup.

Edit: As written imho the most probable cause for the shutoffs was just a "normal" overlean...

----

Regarding  v5f+ vs v5f

21 hours ago, nomad said:

I mean the cells are 30% more powerful (capacity is 50% higher)

Then by the "30% more powerful" you mean the nominal max current stated of the used battery cells, i assume?

You can get an idea of what different battery cells can bring in regard to max power by his comparison of an normal V8 and the V8 with Samsung INR 18650-30Q cells:V8-compare.gif

... but i have no idea which cells are used with the original v8 and how the compare to the Samsung cells ...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

 

... but i have no idea which cells are used with the original v8 and how the compare to the Samsung cells ...

 

When i get it right in the V8 LG MH1 are used....exactly INR18650MJ1..(or Panasonic 18650BD), with 3200mah each cell (10Amp cells)

That are the only existing 3200mah cells(with a decent Amp rate) and this also corrosponds  to  480wh...= 3,7 * 40 * 3200...

 

So the benefit of the Samsung 30Q ("just" 3000mah) here are the higher Amps, they are announced with 15Amp.

From Tests in the vaping World i know that the Samsung 30Q in real Life can easily Keep up with 20Amp cells or better and that here Samsung just for Safety seams to announce them a Little lower. So the better Amperage or draw capability, also proofed in this EUC test, makes them the better choice, even with a Little lower mah-rate than the original cells.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As long time as this kind of motors will be use for electric wheels (similar to stepper motors and drivers) we are not safe. I don't know how Segway is made. How ever if Servo motors and drivers could be use for the EUCes , that what is needed. Servo motors can keep  high torque in full range rpm (up to  ~ 6000 RPM with the same high torque ) Sounds good ? :) Of course higher price .   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Robi Bobi said:

As long time as this kind of motors will be use for electric wheels (similar to stepper motors and drivers) we are not safe. I don't know how Segway is made. How ever if Servo motors and drivers could be use for the EUCes , that what is needed. Servo motors can keep  high torque in full range rpm (up to  ~ 6000 RPM with the same high torque ) Sounds good ? :) Of course higher price .   

It are not the Motors...it is the missing power from the batteries! Even a Segway is in no way better than our wheels, you can also overlean a Segway!

As you see the newest wheels generate a horsepower of upto 4,5KW...That's massive and near a small motorbike!

And they do that from batteries with "just" 1600wh.....generating upto 150Amps...But: which are even then  8-10kg of batteries!

if you want more power,more saftety, more and bigger batteries are needed...as new Batterie Technologie is unfortunatly not in sight!

 

The Inventor of EUC-solowheel....has said that about 10.000 Watts are needed to build a wheel, which in no way ever can be overleaned......

in the Moment our strongest wheels operate with a (max) 3000Watt...nominal 1500Watt!

To get the power to build an absolute safe wheel...you have to draw a truck full with batteries behind you :-) But we are going their...the new Monster with 2400wh and 30kg!!!! is the newest Evolution......

 

i guess when our wheels weight about 70-100kg...then they will be safe :blink1:

i for my part take an V3 with 19kg...and just dont do stupid things with it and stay inside its announced capabilities....safe enough for me...and when i fall...i am not killed by the wheel rolling over me B)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

It are not the Motors...it is the missing power from the batteries! Even a Segway is in no way better than our wheels, you can also overlean a Segway!

As you see the newest wheels generate a horsepower of upto 4,5KW...That's massive and near a small motorbike!

And they do that from batteries with "just" 1600wh.....generating upto 150Amps...But: which are even then  8-10kg of batteries!

if you want more power,more saftety, more and bigger batteries are needed...as new Batterie Technologie is unfortunatly not in sight!

 

The Inventor of EUC-solowheel....has said that about 10.000 Watts are needed to build a wheel, which in no way ever can be overleaned......

in the Moment our strongest wheels operate with a (max) 3000Watt...nominal 1500Watt!

To get the power to build an absolute safe wheel...you have to draw a truck full with batteries behind you :-) But we are going their...the new Monster with 2400wh and 30kg!!!! is the newest Evolution......

 

i guess when our wheels weight about 70-100kg...then they will be safe :blink1:

i for my part take an V3 with 19kg...and just dont do stupid things with it and stay inside its announced capabilities....safe enough for me...and when i fall...i am not killed by the wheel rolling over me B)

 

Ok overlean on Segways, do you have any info about cut off on Segways. I ask before don't have time to look for as I am lorry driver and  text it from mobile phone.

10 000 W !!! So how many V x A ?

In fact there are Sony vtc5 with 30A but 2500 mah capacity.

Maybe more safety high rpm servo motor with planetary gearbox which will give very high torque and can be light.

6000 rpm / 10 (gearbox) =600 rpm » 45 km/h (16" wheel), so for 45km/h if the motor has 4Nm we have 40Nm holding torque at full range of speed from 0 to 45 km/h and still light constuction.

Stepper motors don't like: high rpm with load (at more then 500 rpm let say) vibrations, shacked accelerations, bad quality bearings (axle). They can cut off it self.

More V such as 80V or 90V give more stability,  Can work at higher rpm where at 60V thay just cut off. But there is not a big difference in holding toque at high rpm.  So it look that biger wheel and higher Voltage that is improovment.

And more Amps are needed for highter torque that right. To avoid overlean.

 Where is from the cut off  if all parts are ok? It come when drvier puch to much (or brake) breaking max avaible torque and the wheel come to be at not proper position ad should to be by CB order and maybe controling sensors, than CB go to cut off.  That is how see how its works at low speed. 16 inch wheel need 520 rpm for 40 km/h . But for drive safe 40 km/h we need least 50 km/h safe speed. It look that some above 300 rpm strange things occur.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Slaughthammer said:

The problem at higher rpms is, that the voltage induction caused by the magnets moving past the coils reduces the actual effective voltage applied to the motor, thus limiting the maximum current and the torque.

agreed.

17 hours ago, Slaughthammer said:

I would guess that the cutoffs are induced by draining the battery unter cutoff voltage of the BMS

which seems to contradict the first point, if you refer to the high speed cutoffs.

2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

It are not the Motors...it is the missing power from the batteries!

It is rather counterintuitive, but when speed approaches max speed the battery drain approaches zero. That is, lack of battery power is a rather unlikely reason for any high speed incident.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Robi Bobi said:

Ok overlean on Segways, do you have any info about cut off on Segways. I ask before don't have time to look for as I am lorry driver and  text it from mobile phone.

10 000 W !!! So how many V x A ?

In fact there are Sony vtc5 with 30A but 2500 mah capacity.

Maybe more safety high rpm servo motor with planetary gearbox which will give very high torque and can be light.

6000 rpm / 10 (gearbox) =600 rpm » 45 km/h (16" wheel), so for 45km/h if the motor has 4Nm we have 40Nm holding torque at full range of speed from 0 to 45 km/h and still light constuction.

Stepper motors don't like: high rpm with load (at more then 500 rpm let say) vibrations, shacked accelerations, bad quality bearings (axle). They can cut off it self.

More V such as 80V or 90V give more stability,  Can work at higher rpm where at 60V thay just cut off. But there is not a big difference in holding toque at high rpm.  So it look that biger wheel and higher Voltage that is improovment.

And more Amps are needed for highter torque that right. To avoid overlean.

 Where is from the cut off  if all parts are ok? It come when drvier puch to much (or brake) breaking max avaible torque and the wheel come to be at not proper position ad should to be by CB order and maybe controling sensors, than CB go to cut off.  That is how see how its works at low speed. 16 inch wheel need 520 rpm for 40 km/h . But for drive safe 40 km/h we need least 50 km/h safe speed. It look that some above 300 rpm strange things occur.

ok, so i wont go into much discussion...just some thing:

You are not getting energy from nowhere...so whatever motor you take, you need a certain amount of power(Watts) to have aperson balancing and running 30kmh....that is not changed on whatsoever motor, at least our direct drive motors use energy very "direct" while gearboxes have a loss of energy...also there have been tried those gearboxes, rockwheel did that! it was no success..

and also also: Yes, Segway got cutouts...they were just not that worse, as Segway was redundant (and weighing around 80kg, because of that)

Cutouts on our unicycle, if they are not because of a failure, they most have one reason:

people pushing the wheel behind its declared envelope! ignoring the beeps and warnings and tiltbacks!

If you dont do that, its all fine...if you think a self balancing vehicle can take all  responsibilities....you will never get that, sorry :-)

and now i am out of that...as this has been discussed again, and again....and again....

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

II full agree with you regarding current motors, Sorry did not included losses on gearbox because is minimal if mean 40 Nm. These tests shows max 16 Nm at 27 km/h for Msuper V3+ 1600Wh that  big progress :). Discussed again ... yes , and will be , because more and more topics about. No body read 10 000 post before will put one. I understand that you can be tired by my ideas (repeated already maybe) Sorry that I am, I am new one, I don't know many things. 

Some time ago CNC heavy machines used stepper motors, now servos. Which is big step forward. 

Do you think that servos are not applicable ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5.12.2016 at 4:16 AM, Cloud said:

@Chriull yes i can translate and ask ecodrift, i should be able to get to it early this weel.

also if someone needs a translation of the russian text describing test results, i can help. Probably not going to translate everything, but if there is a specific question/ model they teste that one is interested in , let me know

Thanks - i just found out, that @EcoDriftseems to be also a member here in this forum. If he speaks english (or german) and is not dependend on google translate we could maybe make this directly?

BTW: @EcoDrift- grats to the dynamometer tests! I like them alot! And so that you know what this post is about - i asked @cloud before if he could translate my summary/statements of your dynamometer tests (first post of this thread) to russian and ask you for verification of the content. (i just read the google translated blog of yours from russian ... so it is hard to really get every detail... ;( )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5.12.2016 at 10:35 PM, Robi Bobi said:

II full agree with you regarding current motors, Sorry did not included losses on gearbox because is minimal if mean 40 Nm. These tests shows max 16 Nm at 27 km/h for Msuper V3+ 1600Wh that  big progress :). Discussed again ... yes , and will be , because more and more topics about. No body read 10 000 post before will put one. I understand that you can be tired by my ideas (repeated already maybe) Sorry that I am, I am new one, I don't know many things. 

Some time ago CNC heavy machines used stepper motors, now servos. Which is big step forward. 

Do you think that servos are not applicable ?

I do not really get why you mean servos could be advantageous? According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servomotor:

"A servomotor is a rotary actuator or linear actuator that allows for precise control of angular or linear position, velocity and acceleration.[1] It consists of a suitable motor coupled to a sensor for position feedback. It also requires a relatively sophisticated controller, often a dedicated module designed specifically for use with servomotors.

Servomotors are not a specific class of motor although the term servomotor is often used to refer to a motor suitable for use in a closed-loop control system."

So by this definition each EUC already uses a servomotor?!

Maybe some of the servomotors you experienced have more sophisticated Motors than the motors by now used for EUCs?

But the underlying characteristics of the BLDC motors (torque/rpm curve) are the same for all....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Thanks - i just found out, that @EcoDriftseems to be also a member here in this forum. If he speaks english (or german) and is not dependend on google translate we could maybe make this directly?

BTW: @EcoDrift- grats to the dynamometer tests! I like them alot! And so that you know what this post is about - i asked @cloud before if he could translate my summary/statements of your dynamometer tests (first post of this thread) to russian and ask you for verification of the content. (i just read the google translated blog of yours from russian ... so it is hard to really get every detail... ;( )

Sorry, but I dont have enough time to make english version((

http://airwheel.ru/test-monokoles-na-dinostende/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, EcoDrift said:

Sorry, but I dont have enough time to make english version((

http://airwheel.ru/test-monokoles-na-dinostende/

No Problem - that would be also a bit overdone. Imho I understood the basics behind the test - it was just meant as verification of my summary here...

Just one "main" point i could not find in your article - with your first tests you published at http://electrotransport.ru/ you mentioned that because accelerating from zero blew the fuses of many KingSongs you did "slow starts" - not fully accelerate until approximately 10-15 km/h were reached. Is this also true for your new tests?

Also, did you ever think of also measuring the power(torque)/speed curve for braking, if this is possible with your dynamometer/test setup? Would be a very interesting graph too - every EUC driver has to brake too while driving. And there is imho not too much known by now in regard of braking capabilities of the wheels...

But maybe there is the risk that you destroy your wheels (fuse, motherboard) by testing this - at least with the previous generation of wheels many reports existed that the motherboard got fried by emergency braking... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, EcoDrift said:

Sorry, but I dont have enough time to make english version((

http://airwheel.ru/test-monokoles-na-dinostende/

It would be nice to test some old EUCs such as Msuper V2, as this is one of the not-many-18-inchers, some are considering upgrade to V3.

It would be also very nice to re-test some of the most popular ones as well, as it seems that the results are different for each test. In theory, the peak power is achieved at around 45% of the no load speed(lift test speed)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, zlymex said:

It would be nice to test some old EUCs such as Msuper V2, as this is one of the not-many-18-inchers, some are considering upgrade to V3.

It would be also very nice to re-test some of the most popular ones as well, as it seems that the results are different for each test. In theory, the peak power is achieved at around 45% of the no load speed(lift test speed)

It doesn't have mind((

Msuper v2 out of stock

other old model - out of stock

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Wagtenor said:

@Chriull Wow, this is great information!  According to this the Gotway ACM non-84V is a torquey, speed demon.  Also shows that King Song (KS-16) has more active control over the motor slowly unleashing its power.

 

Or perhaps, after reading a bit closer this thread, the testing of the KS-16 was performed more gradually due to blowing fuse - I'm not sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...