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British Government to "invest" £80,000,000 in more electric car charger points

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Tilmann    1,158
2 hours ago, Smoother said:

So if you can afford a £30,000 electric car with a £5,000 government subsidy. They are willing to throw even more tax money at you,  to help you out with your road hogging, avg. 1.2 occupants, subsidised, takes 16 years to see the savings, car. While Joe Schmo on his meek, tiny, inexpensive, taking care of business, needs no parking space, euc, gets harassed and fined and banned. Nice! 

European unity @work - German government supports e-car purchase with 4000 Euro subsidy, but my Msuper got confiscated months ago for using it on public ground. Arrrrrgh.

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vladmarks    133
2 hours ago, Smoother said:

So if you can afford a £30,000 electric car with a £5,000 government subsidy. They are willing to throw even more tax money at you,  to help you out with your road hogging, avg. 1.2 occupants, subsidised, takes 16 years to see the savings, car. While Joe Schmo on his meek, tiny, inexpensive, taking care of business, needs no parking space, euc, gets harassed and fined and banned. Nice! 

Same with tax relief for Cycle to Work scheme in the UK. 

If we can put EUCs on the same scheme, given that the legal structure is in place in some time, it could be fairly scalable compared to e-car subsidies. 

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Smoother    1,005
7 hours ago, Tilmann said:

European unity @work - German government supports e-car purchase with 4000 Euro subsidy, but my Msuper got confiscated months ago for using it on public ground. Arrrrrgh.

Your msuper got confiscated!!! Omg! What happened? Are you riding something now or are  here To remember the good old days ?

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Tilmann    1,158
59 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Your msuper got confiscated!!! Omg! What happened? Are you riding something now or are  here To remember the good old days ?

Happened in July already. I used to commute 6km through the center of Berlin every day, passing zillions of police along the way. Most of them cheerfully ignored me, some approached me with curiosity, very few explained their opinion, that my vehicle was illegal, but then deliberately looked the other way. Just one man on a mission, a bicycle cop, stopped me in total 3 times and pressed charges to the greatest extent possible. On the 3rd occasion, he confiscated the Msuper (V1) to submit it to investigation by a "technical expert". I objected, reasoning that the result of any technical examination could only come to one conclusion: the EUC does not fit any legally defined category for powered vehicles. Thus, there is no template to check its technical properties against. If anything, a legal evaluation is needed.

Either my reasoning didn't convince the local judge who had to confirm the confiscation, or he did not bother reading it - so the ewheel is still in custody (bye, bye, battery).

While dear friends from the Berlin EUC community immediately helped out with a decent spare ewheel, I don't dare commuting all the way any longer. Now I use the damned car for commuting with an EUC in the trunk, which I just ride for the last mile to sneak into the back entrance of my work place. Ironically, that's a government owned company which happily tolerates me riding on campus and all the way to and from my office desk. I also do tours outside of downtown and ride on our public playground "Tempelhofer Feld".

Now I am waiting for some sort of a misdemeanor fine. As I hope for a slim chance, that I succeed with an interpretation of the law which essentially reasons "EUCs are not explicitly forbidden - consequently, it's allowed", I will try to fight such a fine.

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Smoother    1,005

That's terrible.  So sorry to hear that. But I'm afraid that various versions of @Tilmann s problem will soon become our reality in all the countries that have ruled EUCs illegal like the UK. 

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hobby16    267


@Tilmann

So bad what happened to you.

I've heard the Germans are strict with rules but I didn't know they could be strict even when there is NO rule.
What you have been submitted to is probably a world premiere. It's arbitrary and it sucks.

 

 

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Tilmann    1,158
57 minutes ago, hobby16 said:


@Tilmann

So bad what happened to you.

I've heard the Germans are strict with rules but I didn't know they could be strict even when there is NO rule.
What you have been submitted to is probably a world premiere. It's arbitrary and it sucks.

@Smoother, @hobby16, @ALinCuenca: Thanks for your empathy!

Unfortunately, the rules situation in Germany is a bit trickier (hey, we invented bureaucracy!): Essentially, when an increasing number of cars and motorcycles appeared on German streets in the early 1900's, the German Reich passed its first "Kraftfahrtgesetz" (powered vehicle law) in 1909. It defined, that anything transporting a person faster than your average pedestrian without muscle power is a "Kraftfahrzeug" (Kfz, powered vehicle) and thus subject to all subsequent rules and regulations (like technical requirements, insurance requirements, drivers license, minimum driver age, etc.). That speed limit was later refined to be 6 km/h, which is still valid today. BTW: in the same law from 1909, the upper legal speed limit for all powered vehicles throughout the country was set to 15 km/h. Obviously, that didn't promise much fun on the Autobahn and was dropped later :P.

As for restrictive biased minds, that Kfz-definition applies to EUCs even today and bans their use to private property.

Apart from wishful thinking and calls for common sense handling, I only know of one reputable legal opinion by Prof. Grosskopf, a law professor at the Bremen university. He published a lengthy paper (unfortunately behind a paywall), evaluating today's German national and EU legal situation regarding EUCs. Not sure, I understood all of it, but his bottom line is christal clear: No existing law prohibits the use of EUCs on public ground or provides a basis to fine those who do.

His reasoning: when defining "Kfz", never ever had legislation anything with less than 2 wheels in mind. Hence, the definition is not applicable to vehicles with just one wheel.

Now, don't get too excited about that. All to often, German law interpretation/application leans toward "if it's not explicitly allowed, it's verboten!!!". But maybe, just maybe, we run into a judge who honors the obvious double standards with banning EUCs while subsidizing electric cars.

I'll keep you posted.

Edited by Tilmann
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Asylsteirer    482
11 hours ago, Tilmann said:

Happened in July already.....

Sounds like if a demo of 100 EUC riders or so is necessary in Berlin.

To me this is nearly unbelievable, how silly some policemen are sometimes acting, totally lacking common sense.

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Robi Bobi    14

There is kind of right to restrict EUC, A beginer shoul not go for a public places do drive. It is very risky that the wheel can go away it self and hit some one or a property. Maybe some training wich could confirm drivers skills with a paper is ok. Like paragliding licence. So EUC clubs to pass an exam can be an option. 

How ever there is a  story with kids bikes where they drive at first with 4 whells 2 attached and later a father remove the additional 2 wheels and there is fall after fall before a kid catch the balans. So that risk is acceptable by the low?

I will ask insurance company that EUCes can be atteched to their extreme sports offer,

Edited by Robi Bobi
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