Popular Post Smoother Posted November 9, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) I've been reading various threads about ' my wheel is doing this, my mini pro is doing that', heck I've even started one myself. Not to mention hover board charges catching fire. Which got me remembering the "good ol' days" when Segway was the only game in town Just my opinion. Aside from liability insurance and high manufacturing costs due to being based in a country where workers have rights and social security/pension schemes, I observed a few points myself. i once owned the main body of a Segway, no wheels, no transmission, no batteries, no handle, but the body was intact. Because it was superfluous to requirements ( and malfunctioning) I took it apart. I posted pictures on a Segway forum years ago. Twin circuit boards (beautifully crafted btw), rows of MOSfets screwed directly to the aluminium body to dissipate heat, with full redundancy; One board dies, the other takes over and slows device to a stop. four motors, apparently. Two motor housings, but each one contained two separate motors, so no wheel could suddenly die and fling the rider under a bus. If one of the four died, the computer would know, and slow/ stop etc. High speed motors with gearbox to reduce rotational speed but multiply torque X fold ( I forget the ratio) I once tried climbing a seriously steep, concrete, freeway embankment. There was no way to walk or even crawl up it. It was easily 45* or more. I climbed about 3 feet (1m) vertically and then stopped. I looked down, and up the remaining 20 feet of embankment and chickened out. The Segway had no problem holding still or continuing, I bottled it. not one gyro but four ( I think) mounted in a beautiful little cage between the motors. Each gyro was mounted at a 45* angle to any other, and all communicated with the twin motherboards. If any gyro disagreed with the other three (think "Minority Report"), actions were taken ( I'm not sure what exactly, probably slow/stop. twin batteries. Mostly to get the power needed and to fit the available space, but I'm sure if one died, ...slow/stop, etc. four foot sensing Hall effect sensors, mounted to a moving foot pad, reinforced with metal so pad moved in a flat plane. In other words, if you applied foot pressure unevenly, the sensors would still depress and activate. the thing was a work of art, even the inside of the casing was beautiful CNC machined ally. yeah it cost a ton, but my God it was well made. now we all want the cheapest and fastest things China can churn out with, what appears to be little or no product testing, and this is what we get; wheels that dump us off at high speeds with no warning, miniPRO s that stop balancing with no warning, wheels that stop balancing if we do too much forward and back, wheels that switch off if we go down hill for too long. like I said, there's a reason Segways were so expensive; safety, and quality. to paraphrase a saying I head in the building trade... " you can have safe, you can have cheap, and you can have fast, but only two out of the three" Edited November 9, 2016 by Smoother Spelling 2 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Spalding Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 That is a great post I had an opportunity to ride a couple of the original segways and they were amazing pieces of technology.... Still are, quite frankly. I like your last statement, most of all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 15 hours ago, Smoother said: .....with full redundancy; One board dies, the other takes over and slows device to a stop. I honestly don't think so. Two boards are necessary for two motors, and if one dies, then the rider lost balance. This will double the chance of failure than single-boarded EUC of the same quality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted November 10, 2016 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 10, 2016 With all due respect, I don't know why you @zlymex resorted to opinion, when facts are so easy to obtain. It's obvious you have a computer. I used MY computer to do a search, to see if I had remembered something wrong from my time when I owned 2.5 Segways, and to decide if I had to correct my statements or apologise, for my faulty memory. No I hadn't, on either count. from science.howstuff works.com All of the tilt information is passed on to the "brain" of the vehicle, two electronic controller circuit boards comprising a cluster of microprocessors. The Segway has a total of 10 onboard microprocessors, which boast, in total, about three times the power of a typical PC. Normally, both boards work together, but if one board breaks down, the other will take over all functions so that the system can notify the rider of a failure and shut down gracefully. even without this, easy to find quote, the concept of FULL redundancy should have been a clue. There is absolutely no point in PARTIAL redundancy. oh, but the same article did prove me wrong, on another point, the Segway had 5 gyros not 4. Sorry about that. 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post zlymex Posted November 10, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted November 10, 2016 3 hours ago, Smoother said: With all due respect, I don't know why you @zlymex resorted to opinion, when facts are so easy to obtain. It's obvious you have a computer. I used MY computer to do a search, to see if I had remembered something wrong from my time when I owned 2.5 Segways, and to decide if I had to correct my statements or apologise, for my faulty memory. No I hadn't, on either count. from science.howstuff works.com All of the tilt information is passed on to the "brain" of the vehicle, two electronic controller circuit boards comprising a cluster of microprocessors. The Segway has a total of 10 onboard microprocessors, which boast, in total, about three times the power of a typical PC. Normally, both boards work together, but if one board breaks down, the other will take over all functions so that the system can notify the rider of a failure and shut down gracefully. even without this, easy to find quote, the concept of FULL redundancy should have been a clue. There is absolutely no point in PARTIAL redundancy. oh, but the same article did prove me wrong, on another point, the Segway had 5 gyros not 4. Sorry about that. 1. Microprocessor's power is very small, which works in low voltage and low current thus very small in power(= volt * current), reliability is usually not an issue. What they failed to mention is that there are 12 MOSFETs on each board, and each of any 24 MOSFETs is a Single Point of Failure(SPoF) elements. Therefore, there is no such thing as full redundancy in a Segway. 2. More important things are the power devices, such as the motor(s), the drives(MOSFETs), which undergone a tremendous voltage and current hence power. If you've ever seen photos from @EUC Extreme, you will know what easily get fried, 3. It's true there are 5 separate gyros in a Segway, that because it was primitive. Now days balancing wheels use 6, and all integrated in a much smaller, much cheaper, but more reliable QFN package. 4. Human-machine interaction is more important than a buautiful hardware, and that should be what those microprocessors are really for. Segway was the 1st balancing wheel and was still primitive in the software/firmware, sometimes making bizarre movement. Well known troubles include too soft for idling, and won't stop even if the rider is off board. There are many videos demonstrated these. Furthermore, I'm sure you know how the owner of Segway died riding his own Segway. 5. It is an Unicycle section, posting Segway here is a bit off topic. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) I believe you are referring to the man who bought distribution rights to Segway in England. Not " the owner of Segway" . Dean Kamen is still very much alive, as far as I know. 'It's amazing how few facts you check. I believe he was riding on a cliff top path, stopped to let some walkers past, and slipped off the cliff. I don't think anyone riding a balancing device along a cliff top should be allowed outside, for their own safety. How he fell, we won't know, but you are implying a fault of the Segway, and that is much less likely that idiot fell off cliff. As for your photos. Anyone can troll the internet and find pictures of anyone falling off anything. What exactly did I do to offend you that you seem so determined to attack this insignificant thread of mine? Tiny amounts of current or huge current, which is it. Failure is failure, low or high current. MY point was every component had a twin ready to take over100% if the other failed As for your 12 MOSfets single point of failure theory. If one fails, ON ONE BOARD. THEN THE OTHER HEALTHY BOARD TAKES CONTROL AND SHUTS DOWN SAFELY. I have no idea why you don't get this. But. I'm tired of this. So flame on all you want. please, next time show people falling off motorcycles, or jet skis or tables. im sure they will help you make some other un fact checked points. Edited November 10, 2016 by Smoother 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetpapi Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) I still own a Segway and I have to agree they were built like a TANK! You can feel the "fear of being sued" in the build quality (made in USA). All the people that fell off Segway was due to their "user error"... that includes the clown called W.Bush. I fell once doing a sharp turn on 25 degree ramp. Totally user error. I ride EUC and Segway on the same day and the "Trust and Confidence" is totally different on both machines. BTW I ride Ninebot One E+ and the "fear of face plant" is always on the back my mind and that restricts my freedom to some extent. My 2 cents. Edited November 10, 2016 by Planetpapi 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Thanks @Planetpapi. I was going to say that, but I was getting a bit wound up. G,W. Bush fell off, I believe, because he tried to get on when it was switched off. No training. No reading of manual, no watching of DVD. I haven't fact checked that, that's just what I remember from owning Segways at the time and living in Texas, Howdie. i think @zlymex thinks I am anti China. I am not. I am anti dangerous product design, you know design that throws a rider off once top speed has been reached. Design that allows people to disable tilt back. Design that machines sharp cut angles into axles and wonders why they crack there. You know, things like that. China used to be hundreds of years ahead of the west in MANY technical things. I don't believe anyone would buy a totally safe EUC that cost twice the price of a comparable unit ( speed, range, hill climb.). If anything I was pointing blame at us, people like me who want the most EUC for the least dosh ( I'm living on a fixed income now, so splurging ain't an option). When Segway was the only game in town, they could afford to go all out on design, there was no competitor to undercut them. cheap, yep, fast, yup, safe? That will cost extra. Eh, no thanks. China is giving us what the market demands. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilmann Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 (edited) Dear Segway Owners, I am curious, if Segway found a cure for the most common (my perception) reason for mishaps with cheapo Segway compatibles. Reason for asking: I have next to none riding experience on real Segways, but we do own an Airwheel S3 for my gf as I can't sweet talk her on an EUC. This thing hardly exceeds 15kph - so the following just describes involuntary dismounts (albeit some of them embarrassing) - not terrible accidents. The reason for those mishaps was a misperception of the rider regarding the function of the steering column. Don't laugh if you didn't try it: In unexpected off-balance situations, it's seductively intuitive to use that column as a "cling-on-to-it-to-keep-your-own-balance" handle rather than respecting it as a pure input device. Picture this scenario: there is your "uuuh, this isn't as difficult as it looked" newbie happily riding along. Then the inevitable happens and his right wheel drops into that one pothole, he overlooked. Now the platform isn't even anymore but leans some degrees to the right. To avoid falling off to the right, the rider has to adjust his position: bend the left knee, stretch the right leg to keep his body perpendicular to the ground and his center of gravity straight above the platform. The nasty trap: during this adjustment, it feels very natural, to "take that column with you", i.e. now rider and column are perpendicular to the ground, but the steering column is at a significant angle to the left with regards to the platform. The airwheel S3 interprets, that the rider just commands a sharp turn to the left. To the very surprise of the rider, the airwheel accelerates that right wheel in the pothole with all it's might while suddenly slowing down the left wheel on higher ground. The resulting instant tornado athletics with riders clinging on to the handle for dear life may be entertaining to bystanders, most riders weren't quite as amused. Correct behavior to avoid this: when your platform swings right or left and you want to go straight. allow the steering column to swing freely with the platform and thus stay in the center position. In other words: DON'T cling on to it. My question: to me, more mature control software could detect that easily and make it much safer and more intuitive for the rider. How does a real Segway behave in such a situation? Edited November 10, 2016 by Tilmann 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volavoile Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 If wheels could have electronic and batteries redundancy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 I'm sorry @Tilmannyou have no answer yet. My experience with Segway was with the original rigidly fixed control column, with left grip steering twist. On this model you could cling onto the column to steady yourself in left right swings due to uneven surfaces. I'm not sure if an actual Segway (2) with tilting control column would act the same way as your Airwheel S3. Just like cars, these things can look similar on the surface, but can be very different under the sheet metal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 14 hours ago, Smoother said: I believe you are referring to the man who bought distribution rights to Segway in England. Not " the owner of Segway" . Dean Kamen is still very much alive, as far as I know. 'It's amazing how few facts you check. No, I was not referring to Dean Kamen. I referred to Jimi Heselden, the owner of Segway. I'm really surprised you don't know this, which is the fact that so easy to obtain.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315518/Segway-tycoon-Jimi-Heselden-dies-cliff-plunge-scooters.html The multi-millionaire owner of the company that makes Segway motorised scooters has died in a freak accident while riding one of his vehicles. Jimi Heselden, 62, was found dead in a river after plunging 80 feet over a limestone cliff near his home. He was riding a rugged country version of the two-wheeled Segway when tragedy struck. The Segway was found in the river near his body, indicating that he was still riding the scooter when he drove over the cliff. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8027301/Segway-company-owner-dies-riding-two-wheeled-machine-off-cliff.html Segway company owner dies riding two-wheeled machine off cliff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilmann Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 3 hours ago, Smoother said: I'm sorry @Tilmannyou have no answer yet. My experience with Segway was with the original rigidly fixed control column, with left grip steering twist. On this model you could cling onto the column to steady yourself in left right swings due to uneven surfaces. I'm not sure if an actual Segway (2) with tilting control column would act the same way as your Airwheel S3. Just like cars, these things can look similar on the surface, but can be very different under the sheet metal. Thank you @Smoother!! Some 5 or 6 years ago, I was riding a Segway at a dealers exhibition on a perfectly flat parking lot and I remember steering the thing by tilting the entire column. Must have been a 2nd gen Segway then. Coming to think about my steering question, I better address that in the xiaomi/ninebot/... "Mini" section. You know, those Segway-type vehicles with the shorter steering column you operate with your knees. With those, it must be almost impossible to avoid an unintended steering input when one of your wheels plunges into a pothole. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted November 11, 2016 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 11, 2016 Quote @zlymex. "No, I was not referring to Dean Kamen. I referred to Jimi Heselden, the owner of Segway. I'm really surprised you don't know this, which is the fact that so easy to obtain.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315518/Segway-tycoon-Jimi-Heselden-dies-cliff-plunge-" yes you are correct. I was wrong. Time for me to eat humble pie. I must have remembered that story wrongly, and yes, it was east to fact check. My apologies. Funny how things like this come back to bit you in the butt! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Smoother said: Quote @zlymex. "No, I was not referring to Dean Kamen. I referred to Jimi Heselden, the owner of Segway. I'm really surprised you don't know this, which is the fact that so easy to obtain.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315518/Segway-tycoon-Jimi-Heselden-dies-cliff-plunge-" yes you are correct. I was wrong. Time for me to eat humble pie. I must have remembered that story wrongly, and yes, it was east to fact check. My apologies. Funny how things like this come back to bit you in the butt! I don't give negative feedback lightly. Now you admitted that the owner of Segway died riding his own Segway, I give you one because the assumption you made and you did not search for it even I pointed it out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Smoother Posted November 11, 2016 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 11, 2016 (edited) Fair enough. FYI I just gave you a plus for yours. You deserved it. Actually, no I didn't, it wouldn't let me because I have maxed out 20 from yesterday. It still thinks it's yesterday for me. Time zones I suppose. I'll try again later. .....Later: Done it. Edited November 11, 2016 by Smoother 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Keith Posted November 11, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted November 11, 2016 Now the sniping has stopped, Jim was reversing back out of the way of a dog walker and had a cliff edge close on on side of him. One big, and often reported here, failing of two wheel single axle machines like e Ninebot mini is that the steering reverses going backwards, I.e. Lean the steering right and it goes left. I meant to test this on a Segway on holiday but forgot, however I'm fairly sure they do the same thing, thus causing him to lose one wheel over the edge, followed by the rest of it and him! It is a significant flaw in the two wheeled machines that means they are dangerous in reverse. One other statement I would take (pedantic) issue with is that, like an EUC, I very much doubt a Segway can "slow down and stop" with a problem, if the rider is leaning forward it has to keep driving to maintain balance. What I assume it will do (which does amount to the same thing) is tilt back to force the rider to slow it down until it stops. BTW, although this section is an EUC forum, Segway is very much where it all started and IMHO, discussions on its technology and history very much have a place here. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilmann Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 12 minutes ago, Keith said: One other statement I would take (pedantic) issue with is that, like an EUC, I very much doubt a Segway can "slow down and stop" with a problem, if the rider is leaning forward it has to keep driving to maintain balance. What I assume it will do (which does amount to the same thing) is tilt back to force the rider to slow it down until it stops. The "classic" Segway concept with the tall steering column can slow you down very effectively as long as you are moving forward. The riders ability to lean forward is simply limited by that column in his way. You would have to make an acrobatic effort to bring your center of gravity further forward than the column allows - thus, you have very little choice to ignore tilt back (believe me, I tried ). With the "Minis" and Balance Boards, that's a different story. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 It's been over 12 years since I sold my Segways and got out of that world, but I believe,( not looked up recently) that either board was capable of running the machine by itself. But if that one board failed then law suit city. Segway did not want a bunch of law suits, that's why everything was doubled. So once the boards agreed that one was having problems, the other would take over,with the ability to produce full power, ( I believe) and force the rider to slow, stop and get off. Once the rider was off it would shut down (again, I believe), until the faulty board was replaced or repaired. @Tilmann is correct, that column will really force your centre of gravity back, and even standing on your toes, you can't make it go forward. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frode Posted November 11, 2016 Share Posted November 11, 2016 7 hours ago, Keith said: Jim was reversing back out of the way of a dog walker and had a cliff edge close on on side of him. Out of curiosity: What happens if you ride backwards with the Segway and suddenly hit something, say a stone or a hole, and you loose balance and start falling backwards, and then grab the steering column in an attempt to keep balance (which I would guess would be the reflex action when suddenly loosing balance backwards), but you neither manage to restore balance nor do you fall off? Could Jimi Heselden's ride over the cliff have been due to something like this? Look at the first one in the video - and there is an almost identical incident at 40 sec: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 11, 2016 Author Share Posted November 11, 2016 Sorry, what was the question? That was just too funny. Oh yeah, could Jim have pulled the column back and initiated sudden rearward acceleration. Sure sounds possible. Unfortunately, we'll never know. But we do know that Segwaying on a cliff top can kill. Who knew!! and that's the reason I stopped climbing that seriously steep freeway embankment on my Segway, I didn't want to end up on a Segway dumb ass blooper, or in hospital, or both. actually, watching that reel, makes me think that the general public were never ready for self balancing vehicles. No one can be bothered to do the training. maybe EUC's will do better, because you actually have to try. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 2 hours ago, Smoother said: But we do know that Segwaying on a cliff top can kill. So can walking, me, I'm scared of heights anyway, it just seems strange that he would be riding there in the first place 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 12, 2016 Author Share Posted November 12, 2016 People do dumb things. Look at any "epic fail " video on YouTube and you ask yourself, over and over, 'what were they thinking ?'. Jim was probably over confident. He was a self made multimillionaire, he was a doer and a risk taker. He had probably ridden that path many times before. But he failed to fully consider all the what ifs. The big one being ' what if something goes wrong when riding a Segway along a cliff top'. Before his death, we could all answer that hypothetically, now we can answer it factually. jim bought Segway as a business venture I presume, not because he just loved them so much. As the new owner of an existing company , he was not present at any of the meeting of the original design team, 6,000 miles away and 8'to 10 years previously, in New England, USA, to listen to all the discussions about the problems they were encountering. And he was not present as Segways rolled out across the world and user reports of errors and accidents rolled in. His insight into the product was probably ( and yes, I'm presuming here) not as thorough as the original management team. Maybe if Jim had watched Segway epic fail compilations, he might still be with us. Three thoughts. 1. Most of those fails were on the newer Segway (tilting column) for whatever reason. I noticed that a lot of those accidents looked column tilt related. I have never tried one of the column tilt models, but I was quite happy with the original rigid column design. Maybe Segway made a mistake by 'improving it'. 2. From my own experience, and watching some of the videos, I don't for the life of me know why Segway allowed one wheel to spin multiple times faster than the other. I remember complaining to Segway about this around 2004. This happens if one wheel hits mud, or any other slippery surface, and the other wheel does not. There is no real world scenario that requires one wheel to be going, let's say, 1/2 a revolution per second, and the other to be going 5 or more. In dry, 100% grip conditions, that would be a very sharp circle which would probably result in a face plant. In slippery conditions, if the spinning wheel makes it to good grip and stops spinning wildly, the sudden twisting jerk will throw the rider off. I know, it happened to me, but I was pushing it hard across a rough building sight to see what it could handle ( no cliffs nearby) . If only they had programmed something like, oh, let's call it, "limited slip differential" and if the differential rotation didn't stop, I for one would much rather have the wheels slow to a stop and dismount, rather than spin wildly out of control. 3. I noticed how extreme the angles of forward/backward lean, the Segways allowed some riders, before the motors couldn't cope and puked the idiot, I mean rider, off onto the ground. It seems that allowing such extreme angles, back to back are a recipe for disaster. I know the wheels have to accelerate fast enough to get back under the riders feet, etc. I'm just wondering if such extreme acceleration could have been kept in check some how. Actually, come to think of it, I guess it was kept in check by the unit shutting down after a few stupidity fast acceleration/ braking combos. Better to be dumped on the ground where you are at zero mph rather than down the road somewhere unknown, at speed. its a tough call, self balancing machines can't be made safe, once the public get their hands on them. But that's true for anything I guess. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post noisycarlos Posted November 12, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2016 Looking at that video gives me the impression that EUCs are actually safer than segways. I have no data, of course, but i think since you actually have to earn riding an euc, it makes you respect it more and be more careful. Whereas most people can ride a segway in relatively short period, which probably gives them a false sense of security. Not to mention, the control bar looks clumsy as hell. When they start falling they get tangled with it and can't get out of the device, no such problem with euc. EUCs can go crash into something by themselves, and they're heavy, but it seems segways do the same, except they're heavier and they drag you with them. Additionally, I only tried a segway once and the ride waaaay softer than EUCs, you can lean a lot before it balances you, which I feel, makes it easier to lose control (though, it may be just a matter of getting used to it). The only advantage of segways is the redundancy, but other than that, I feel much safer on my EUC. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swvision Posted November 12, 2016 Share Posted November 12, 2016 For some reason it's funnier to see people fail on a segway than on euc. Maybe things that are harder to ride, as in euc's, are more respected rather than something you stand on then push and pull a pole to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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