Pasi

Msuper V3 High Torque, when it comes ?

18 posts in this topic

I wonder if her honest answer will come

I think they aren't even sure yet because as such a small company winding the motor two different ways seems to not make a lot of sense for them financially

Somehow they believe that a higher speed motor wins some kind of a "race" with another manufacturer as opposed to making one that is stronger from a torque standpoint

Most of us around here don't understand that but such is life

Wouldn't it be amazing if future technology (that was not too far down the road) could give him some kind of play software based application choice as to which way you wanted your motor to "operate" during that particular ride?

I hope that we will hear response but there is absolutely no indication in this industry that anyone is winding a motor for torque and not speed

Thank you for starting this thread and posing the question

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22 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

Somehow they believe that a higher speed motor wins some kind of a "race" with another manufacturer as opposed to making one that is stronger from a torque standpoint 1

 

Wouldn't it be amazing if future technology (that was not too far down the road) could give him some kind of play software based application choice as to which way you wanted your motor to "operate" during that particular ride? 2

1 The only race they're about to "win" would be the first / popularized EUC related fatality :(

2 This was already discussed here a couple of times in several threads but that would require support from both the hardware (both motor windings as well as switching electronic / MOSFETs) as well as firmware to be able to change the modes of how the phases are connected to affect speed / torque ratios without need for "duplicate" windings resulting in increased weight. So technical solution exists but would need to be applied EUC world.

Edited by HEC
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2 minutes ago, HEC said:

1 The only race they're about to "win" would be the first / popularized EUC related fatality :(

2 This was already discussed here a couple of time in several threads but that would require support from both the hardware (both motor windings as well as switching electronic / MOSFETs) as well as firmware to be able to change the modes of how the phases are connected to affect speed / torque ratios without need for "duplicate" windings resulting in increased weight. So technical solution exists but would need to be applied EUC world.

1.  the most true statement ever printed here

2.  I fully understand and maybe one day we will have what we want

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I think ACM 16 is the high torque version, because the motor is likely the same internally, but has small diameter.

V3 already has better torque than V2 high torque version. If V3 high torque version is going to produce, they must order an different type of motor, thus requires certain quantity

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2 minutes ago, zlymex said:

V3 already has better torque than V2 high torque version. If V3 high torque version is going to produce, they must order an different type of motor, thus requires certain quantity

Considering that at least 90% western buyers would most likely go for HT version I'd say the sale would be guaranteed.

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30 minutes ago, HEC said:

Considering that at least 90% western buyers would most likely go for HT version...

How did you figure that out?

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Just now, MoNo said:

How did you figure that out?

Just read though the forums here, mainly GW section - you'll see. Also considering the overall larger / taller westerner population it makes sense to have HT version for safety with max speeds of "only" 35 - 40 Km/h instead of ridiculously fast wheels (50 - 70 Km/h) with not enough torque / safety margin,

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I am 100kg and often carry heavy backpacks (from Shopping or so), so sometimes i bring 105-110kg to the wheel, MSuper V3-67,2 Volt to be exact!

I do NOT think the V3 Needs any more torque than it has and from my Feelings if you stay under 33-35kmh you are on the safe side!

 

Also, there have been some (small numbers) of reports from People that bring the V3-board to a "nanosecond-cutout" when idling like crazy when Holding on to something (no real world test!!!) This seams to happen when more than 120Amps are generated....i for my part with my 100kg never got it to this nanocutout...so that was a ridiculous strong idling!

Point is...i do not think that a "high torque" Version would even work, as torque is equal to amps, and Gotway still with the "normal" Version of the V3 seams to be on the borders of max torque/amps. So more torque seams not possible....

My 2 cents

Edited by KingSong69
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2 hours ago, HEC said:

Considering that at least 90% western buyers would most likely go for HT version I'd say the sale would be guaranteed.

Not a western potential buyer, I add a "like" for a french parisian one ;)

But may be the useless speed is not convertible in usable torque !

 

Edited by sbouju
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2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Also, there have been some (small numbers) of reports from People that bring the V3-board to a "nanosecond-cutout" when idling like crazy when Holding on to something (no real world test!!!) This seams to happen when more than 120Amps are generated....i for my part with my 100kg never got it to this nanocutout...so that was a ridiculous strong idling!

 

By "cutout", do you mean the pedal just give in? I onece tried climb a 28 degree slop very slowly and the wheel just give-in, and also fried the MOSFETs. 

I can do idling very quick without holding anything, and I've just did that by holding something so that I can idling even faster and harder, and measure the peak current at 0.1s interval.
V3-idle.gif
Yes, I installed a precision current sensor and use my GL220 for data collection, and I got 47A peak. I suspect I can get much larger current than that. I am 75kg, I'm sure a heavier person can get more. However, I think Gotway is exaggerate the current by saying it cut at 120A, because I've tested my MCM2 and V2 the similar way and compare the current from app that the Goway's current is about 80% larger than real, that is to say, the actually cutout current may be around 67A for V3 if it exaggerate the same way.

I will do more tests such as shorten the sample interval, climb hill at relatively fast speed and see the current also the power.

BTW, I did the similar idling test yesterday(but not as hard as today) and recorded the data by Wheelog. It seems that Gotway did exaggerate the current a lot because the peak current was over 70A. I'll do another test tomorrow and record them both.
V3-idle-wlog.gif

Edit: may be I was wrong. I test the current at the input of the mainboard(or the output of the battery), may be Gotway test the current at the motor, which may be larger because the voltage is small.

Edited by zlymex
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There has been a video in the FB gotway group which demonstrates this cutout for a nonosecond!

ln very, very heavy idling and provokation on the back ward move comes a big bang and the wheel giving in, but regaining power directly after a millisecond...also there has been an official answer of Gotway stating that they cutout for a millisecond to protect the board from frying...(they stated this will happen if over 120 Amp generated)

there is quiet a lot of Gotway bashing over there because of that, while i find that you can stress/provocate every wheel if you overlean/overbrake to much!

 

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15 hours ago, Pasi said:

@Linnea Lin Gotway can You tell me (us) are You going to make "Msuper V3 High Torque" in the near future?

Here in this forum is a lot of stories that people want to have an EUC which can climb on big hills easily. Not necessary to have big maximum speed, maybe 30..35km/h is enough.

I would like to buy 18" euc today, but I must wait until I can have one with high torque.

Or can You promise that Gotway will never do it?

Asking if High Torque version would be made is almost meaningless and might be even confusing to them. Obvously Gotway has stepped away from the HT, MT, HS concept/ terminology and provided 1 version of Msuper3 with a stronger motor. They dont call it High Speed, do they? 

Is it even possible to make the HT version using the same motor? Will reducing the speed open any additional possibilities for torque increase? Instead we should just ask for a stronger torque motor in the next version in the near future ( even if it means sacrificing speed)

Also, Linnea will never say that they wont ever make it...and if she does it wont mean anything. How can she be expected to know what the head of gotway will decide tomorrow? Even he himself probably doesnt know...

 

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11 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

 

(Please ignore the empty ref above, I cannot reply anything without quote something because the network/forum?)

Linnea Lin Gotway did mentioned that the current V3 is a high speed version.

Theoretically it is quite possible to make an V3 HT version with current motor because I measured one armature DC resistance to be less than 0.1 Ohm, indicating that the stall current is tremendous so will be the stall torque, without sacrificing any speed. Like I said else where, the current V3 board has some design flaws and they keep changing it. If they rise the cutout current by 20%, the low speed torque will be also increase by 20% in theory. But why Gotway doesn't modified that? Because that will increase the chance to fry the board.

Edited by zlymex
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Here, I would like to offer an argument against high torque version in favor of high speed version. It does not mean that I am against HT, just offer a point of view from the other side.

We all know that given the max wattage, the torque decreases as RPM, and hence the speed, increases. The HT version, designed to provide high torque at low speed, offers lower top speed at which torque is 0. This means that the torque decreases faster as speed increases. This stiff dropping speed vs torque curve requires the driver to change driving mode ( or lean degrees ) quickly as speed changes, especially near the limit. Thus, it may not be safe. 

On the other hand, the HS version, by sacrificing the max torque, offers a more horizontal speed vs torque curve. Such a flatter curve requires less driver adjustment over a wider speed range. This may increase the safety for the driver. 

Edited by EUCMania
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14 minutes ago, EUCMania said:

Here, I would like to offer an argument against high torque version in favor of high speed version. It does not mean that I am against HT, just offer a point of view from the other side.

We all know that given the max wattage, the torque decreases as RPM, and hence the speed, increases. The HT version, designed to provide high torque at low speed, offers lower top speed at which torque is 0. This means that the torque decreases faster as speed increases. This stiff dropping speed vs torque curve requires the driver to change driving mode ( or lean degrees ) quickly as speed changes, especially near the limit. Thus, it may not be safe. 

On the other hand, the HS version, by sacrificing the max torque, offers a more horizontal speed vs torque curve. Such a flatter curve requires less driver adjustment over a wider speed range. This may increase the safety for the driver. 

An interesting perspective...

If the HT version has a steeper curve than the HS version, then the lines would cross at some point - where that point is would depend on how much higher the HT line starts  (relative to the HS line).

If that crossover is at a faster speed than I want to travel then an HT model has an advantage. But if it is slower, then the HS is the way to go...

So there may be little benefit in waiting hopefully for an HT model. So the question then goes to whether the voltage options may make a difference?

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On 22/10/2016 at 4:49 AM, EUCMania said:

Here, I would like to offer an argument against high torque version in favor of high speed version. It does not mean that I am against HT, just offer a point of view from the other side.

We all know that given the max wattage, the torque decreases as RPM, and hence the speed, increases. The HT version, designed to provide high torque at low speed, offers lower top speed at which torque is 0. This means that the torque decreases faster as speed increases. This stiff dropping speed vs torque curve requires the driver to change driving mode ( or lean degrees ) quickly as speed changes, especially near the limit. Thus, it may not be safe. 

On the other hand, the HS version, by sacrificing the max torque, offers a more horizontal speed vs torque curve. Such a flatter curve requires less driver adjustment over a wider speed range. This may increase the safety for the driver. 

That's true if you take the same motor, imho the same line in the (rpm,torque) Cartesian representation and then you just rotate it, but my point for HT is different. I mean that as new wheels are coming with higher engine power it looks like they are using the extra power for speed instead of keeping speed constant and provide more torque for not only hills but a safety against over lean or to have higher deceleration for braking, or acceleration for fun ;) 

Now the KS16S I read of 1200w motor, 50% more than ks16b, but 35kmph max speed only, so it's only 16% more therefore I guess there will be more torque or the motor will be underused, as the actual ks16b I'm using it works fine around 29-30 

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