Msuper v3 top speed crash - wrecked shell

[nomad]

I went too fast on my 820Wh wheel this morning... It stopped balancing around 45 km/h in the decline, tiltback was disabled. I was not accelerating but the slope increased the speed and triggered a cut off. (Braking was needed to keep the speed down...)

No serious injury. Left hand hurt a little but already starts to feel ok now after an hour, wrist guards took most of the impact. A minor scrape on lower left arm and a tiny scrape under right knee, had three layers of clothes, no knee/elbow pads. (Face or helmet was not hit). The wheel still works I rode back home about 8km. Lesson: Obey the third/last (80%) alarm!

 

[sbouju]

All the best...

23 minutes ago, nomad said:

Lesson: Obey the third/last (80%) alarm!

Was the MS3 the right wheel to learn that...?

[John Eucist]

1 hour ago, nomad said:

It stopped balancing around 45 km/h in the decline, tiltback was disabled.

Holy crap.  Glad to hear you didn't have any major injuries.  While you were going fast it didn't look anywhere close to 45 km/h though?  If I had guessed it looked around 25 km/h.  30 km/h tops.  Which begs the question, why would the motor cut?  What do others estimate the speed judging solely from the video?  Crash is around 12:00 in the video.  Keep in mind that with the camera closer to the ground things appear to move faster.

[Greg Spalding]

I just watched the video and I'm so glad you were not more seriously injured

I understand what John said above, but I guess it's always hard to judge her speed as the camera angle has so much to do with our perception of it

what method did you use to confirm that 45 km/h traveling velocity at the time of we'll shut down?

I don't know what to think about that if for some reason you were traveling far slower than that

Again, the only important thing is that you are okay and time again reminded that for me personally traveling above 30 km/h isn't important

at 85 kg and liking to take longer rides I want to TORQUE and RANGE and not top speed... I realize others want something different

of course if I owned multiple wheels and I'm sure I will it really would not matter, but traveling at almost 30 mph scares me even though I'm the guy who has ridden almost a quarter of 1,000,000 miles on two wheels, a lot of which were well above the speed limit 

Thanks for the video and relating your experience with us

heal quickly and I'm glad you rode home those 8 km without any further problem

Do you really think the wheel suffered no permanent damage other than cosmetic?

I won't even ask your fastest speed after the accident for those last 8 km 

[TremF]

I'm glad you weren't too seriously injure.

It's a shame about the MS3 shell. Had that been the MS2 shell it would have survived. I previously thought the MSupers were meant for offroad and were made durable to cope with the worst. No longer the case.

[Greg Spalding]

30 minutes ago, TremF said:

It's a shame about the MS3 shell. Had that been the MS2 shell it would have survived. I previously thought the MSupers were meant for offroad and were made durable to cope with the worst. No longer the case.

I'm not sure how you can say that

if he were really traveling at 45 km/h and the wheel took a tumble on pavement and then ended up in the dirt it looks exactly like I would have expected

No offense intended, but I think that particular appearance proves the durability of the product (from an outside shell standpoint as I am not at all talking about the inner workings of the wheel itself)

[TremF]

Just now, Greg Spalding said:

I'm not sure how you can say that

if he were really traveling at 45 km/h and the wheel took a tumble on pavement and then ended up in the dirt it looks exactly like I would expected

No offense intended, but I think that particular appearance proves the durability of the product (from an outside shell standpoint as I am not at all talking about the inner workings of the wheel itself)

Had the MS2 crashed the casing wouldn't have broken the way his MS3 did. The casing was a lot more durable on the MS2 which made it ideal for rough and tumble rides. I wasn't talking about the inner workings either.

[Greg Spalding]

Just now, TremF said:

Had the MS2 crashed the casing wouldn't have broken the way his MS3 did. The casing was a lot more durable on the MS2 which made it ideal for rough and tumble rides. I wasn't talking about the inner workings either.

I appreciate your thoughts about that, but to me what the case looks like when it finishes tumbling at 45 kmh has everything to do with the orientation of the wheel itself as it tumbles whether it be end-over-end or just rolling on its axis... That's all I meant

Far more importantly, I think we need to establish exactly how fast he was going or how he determined that speed before the wheel cut off abruptly

[Rehab1]

OMG ...I am so glad you are ok!! I was enjoying the ride up until your accident! 

Your video really captured the moment and hopefully will promote a strong message across the EUC Forum to wear protective gear, diligently monitor the remaining battery power and comply with the audio alerts. 

 

 

[OliverH]

How many crashes with light/ heavy injuries or death do we need that the manufacturer understand that the maximum design speed is determined of the power/ torque curve and that at top speed is enough power margin to manage foreseeable misuse/ risk? For me this speed fights between Kingsong and Gotway looks like Kindergarden. Sorry to say that. 

In Europe we fight to be accepted to become street legal all over Europe with the upcoming PLEV standard. We don't need stories in between to give us a bad reputation. EUC business must convert from freaks to mainstream customers. Freaks should still buy competition models to used on private areas.

[OliverH]

29 minutes ago, TremF said:

Had the MS2 crashed the casing wouldn't have broken the way his MS3 did. The casing was a lot more durable on the MS2 which made it ideal for rough and tumble rides. I wasn't talking about the inner workings either.

Really? I saw a couple of broken cases over here. The MS2 looks like a tank but it's not that strong. I thought about doing an own case - if I find some time.

[Rehab1]

47 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

 but traveling at almost 30 mph scares me even though I'm the guy who has ridden almost a quarter of 1,000,000 miles on two wheels, a lot of which were well above the speed limit 

 

10 minutes ago, OliverH said:

How many crashes with light/ heavy injuries or death do we need that the manufacturer understand that the maximum design speed is determined of the power/ torque curve and that at top speed is enough power margin to manage foreseeable misuse/ risk? 

I totally agree with both of these concerns!  @Greg Spalding and myself have seen significant injuries in our medical fields that have caused irreparable bodily trauma! Treating a patient with a closed head or spinal cord injury is both devastating to the individual and his or her family members! Nothing worse than visiting a patient that will never communicate or walk again following a millisecond mistake!

[Greg Spalding]

2 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

 

I totally agree with both of these concerns!  @Greg Spalding and myself have seen significant injuries in our medical fields that have caused irreparable bodily trauma! Treating a patient with a closed head or spinal cord injury is both devastating to the individual and his or her family members! Nothing worse than visiting a patient that will never communicate or walk again following a millisecond mistake!

glad you mentioned that

just now i was watching this new video on YouTube and i commented that:

1.  i liked the video

2.  nice to see a family riding together

3.  WHERE ARE THE HELMETS FOR THE KIDS?

we want to enjoy our EUCs and folks will take away those "rights" if people don't take care of themselves while riding

 

[Rehab1]

@Greg Spalding yes, where are the kids helmets?

Here is a video of a some of my family members riding in the park yesterday with helmets! 

 

[OliverH]

We only go with helmets since some time. I got a laugh in my riding crew over here every time. I had over 20 years ago a heavy bicycle accident, had the "pleasure" to been flown with the medical helicopter and nose/ upper eye area is remodeld. I know what I'm talking about if I blame this stupidness to sell untested competition stuff to normal customers.

[Greg Spalding]

41 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

@Greg Spalding yes, where are the kids helmets?

Here is a video of a some of my family members riding in the park yesterday with helmets! 

 

Love to see that

and the helmets

appreciate you adding this here

thank you

28 minutes ago, OliverH said:

We only go with helmets since some time. I got a laugh in my riding crew over here every time. I had over 20 years ago a heavy bicycle accident, had the "pleasure" to been flown with the medical helicopter and nose/ upper eye area is remodeld. I know what I'm talking about if I blame thus stupidness to sell untested competition stuff to normal customers.

i'm so glad to hear that

it doesn't take much injury to the head to cause life-altering consequences

we should all try to be good examples to others as we continue to build this fine forum

[lizardmech]

I still don't even understand why it would shut down. There's nothing stopping it braking downhill at top speed. All I can think of is it has a max speed value in some control loop and it over flows and crashes the program above a certain speed. Manufacturers need to explain what conditions they program shutdown on.

[Greg Spalding]

23 minutes ago, lizardmech said:

I still don't even understand why it would shut down. There's nothing stopping it braking downhill at top speed. All I can think of is it has a max speed value in some control loop and it over flows and crashes the program above a certain speed. Manufacturers need to explain what conditions they program shutdown on.

The problem is that braking takes power, too... Therefore, window wheel has reached based be which is that the limit of the control Board to provide power to the motor it just ceases to operate that motor whether it be in acceleration or forced deceleration... The electronics behind these personal devices are still their infancy but conscientious manufacturers would building a lot more failsafes... It is ludicrous that someone can disable alarms and then ignore beeping the entire time they are riding and be able to have a face plant at 45 km/h. obviously is the responsibility of the rider to operate the device in the manner in which it was intended. It's time for manufacturers to circumvent speed demons in a way that can attempt to help them when they make foolish decisions. Obviously electronic unicycles are by nature unstable and dangerous modes of transportation. I have no idea why they continue to raise the bar on top in speed because that is only going to have one result... death of riders followed by outlawing of vehicles in every country on earth. At least, that is the way I see it. Someone please give us more TORQUE and RANGE and not more top and speed. As has been mentioned before the manufacturers in Asia continue to make units that just suits the 65 telegram body habitus a folks in that part Of the world then we in the United States and Europe will have to find manufacturers who will build wheels that are up to caring around folks of our sizes

[John Eucist]

20 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

The problem is that braking takes power, too... 

Actually, are you sure braking takes power (from the battery)?  Because with all eucs having regenerative braking I would have assumed this not being the case.

[Greg Spalding]

1 minute ago, John Eucist said:

Actually, are you sure braking takes power (from the battery)?  Because with all eucs having regenerative braking I would have assumed this not the case.

I think it does take some power from the board to initiate this regenerative braking and so when the wheel is shutting down because of overspeed downhill regenerative braking would not be able to occur either

I will wait the word of others to see if I am even close to correct

[Paco Gorina]

There are different ways to brake. One is regenerative of course but other is generating a torque in oposite direction. So last one needs power.

Anyway remember that torque vs speed is a descending line and you "ALWAYS" need torque to stabilize the wheel. If you go so fast there is no torque resting there is a sure crash.

Also BMS or similar may have closed the wheel for an excés of tension.

[John Eucist]

4 minutes ago, Paco Gorina said:

There are different ways to brake. One is regenerative of course but other is generating a torque in oposite direction. So last one needs power.

I don't think there's a single mass produced euc out there that doesn't use regenerative braking.  One thing though, I remember my MCM2 (a year or two ago) started tilting back and beeping as I was going downhill because my battery was full and the "overcharge protection" kicked in.

[Greg Spalding]

7 minutes ago, John Eucist said:

One thing though, I remember my MCM2 (a year or two ago) started tilting back as I was going downhill because my battery was full and the "overcharge protection" kicked in.

That is a very odd thing to happen and another example of how somebody better figure out how to get these electronics right because whether or not we are participating in the early stages of electronic unicycle development there has to be some way that regenerative braking is turned off if the battery is full because it sounds like the default of that wheel you were riding was to throw you off if the battery was too full when you were going downhill... which is complete garbage and a horrendous thing to have engineered in to electronics

12 minutes ago, Paco Gorina said:

There are different ways to brake. One is regenerative of course but other is generating a torque in oposite direction. So last one needs power.

Anyway remember that torque vs speed is a descending line and you "ALWAYS" need torque to stabilize the wheel. If you go so fast there is no torque resting there is a sure crash.

Also BMS or similar may have closed the wheel for an excés of tension.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter and the information and the education

[Tilmann]

First of all: I'm really glad, this lesson ended relatively harmless. And I perfectly agree with @nomad's take away: respect that third level alarm. And I guess, pretty much all of us agree to that. Apart from that, I'm not all that happy with the bias in this discussion - so, forgive me for a bit of "party pooping":

When it comes to "responsible riding", my priorities are: 1. protect all others from harm, 2. protect yourself. No argument about the sense of wearing protective gear, just realize, it only protects yourself - nobody else.

Watching the video, I can't really judge the speed from that low angle. So I have to assume, that MS3 acts just like mine: without additional stress, the third alarm fires between 37 and 38 kph. Overspeed cut-off stops the wheel altogether between 52 and 53 kph (lift test).

When I watched the video waiting for the announced crash to happen, I cringed several times pleading "not now" when the wheel zoomed past pedestrians with 38+ kph or right next to a car lane at similar speed. Sorry for spoiling the fun here: much rather than worrying, what a 45 kph impact could do to the shell of my beloved wheel, I worry, what a 20Kg brick flying at 45 kph could break hitting a person. While I sure love riding fast (got my MS3 up to 45.11 kph GPS) my simple take away from that is: stay well inside the safe envelope (i.e. no 3rd beeps) while people, bikes or cars could be in the flight path in case my wheel goes ballistic.

On the ever so popular subject "its the manufacturers responsibility to make it safer": sure it is. But:

• In the absence of governmental regulation, the customers rule with their buying decisions. I know for myself, that buying a wheel in the highest performance range (Msuper V3) from a tiny Chinese company with barely 30 employees, I opt-in to be an alpha tester. As I plead guilty on that count, my urge to bash manufacturers is somewhat more gentle.
• A 120 years of unquestionable safety improvements with cars still left me with a vehicle, that allows me to kill myself or others at any time. The improvements sure helped to reduce (involuntary) accidents and lower their consequences, but the only conceivable way to eliminate driver risk altogether would be to take away any control over the vehicle from that driver.

So, yes, I positively want better, more reliable feedback from my wheel, but I don't want it to entirely take over control.

BTW: at approx. 85Kg dressed for success, I consider myself a fairly average European. Lately I had a chance to ride up and down some rather steep BMX trails in the woods. The MS3 never failed to accelerate from almost stand still at the steepest parts. At least at such low speeds, I'm not missing torque and just love that beast. 

Have fun & wheel safely!

[Greg Spalding]

6 minutes ago, Tilmann said:

First of all: I'm really glad, this lesson ended relatively harmless. And I perfectly agree with @nomad's take away: respect that third level alarm. And I guess, pretty much all of us agree to that. Apart from that, I'm not all that happy with the bias in this discussion - so, forgive me for a bit of "party pooping":

When it comes to "responsible riding", my priorities are: 1. protect all others from harm, 2. protect yourself. No argument about the sense of wearing protective gear, just realize, it only protects yourself - nobody else.

Watching the video, I can't really judge the speed from that low angle. So I have to assume, that MS3 acts just like mine: without additional stress, the third alarm fires between 37 and 38 kph. Overspeed cut-off stops the wheel altogether between 52 and 53 kph (lift test).

When I watched the video waiting for the announced crash to happen, I cringed several times pleading "not now" when the wheel zoomed past pedestrians with 38+ kph or right next to a car lane at similar speed. Sorry for spoiling the fun here: much rather than worrying, what a 45 kph impact could do to the shell of my beloved wheel, I worry, what a 20Kg brick flying at 45 kph could break hitting a person. While I sure love riding fast (got my MS3 up to 45.11 kph GPS) my simple take away from that is: stay well inside the safe envelope (i.e. no 3rd beeps) while people, bikes or cars could be in the flight path in case my wheel goes ballistic.

On the ever so popular subject "its the manufacturers responsibility to make it safer": sure it is. But:

• In the absence of governmental regulation, the customers rule with their buying decisions. I know for myself, that buying a wheel in the highest performance range (Msuper V3) from a tiny Chinese company with barely 30 employees, I opt-in to be an alpha tester. As I plead guilty on that count, my urge to bash manufacturers is somewhat more gentle.
• A 120 years of unquestionable safety improvements with cars still left me with a vehicle, that allows me to kill myself or others at any time. The improvements sure helped to reduce (involuntary) accidents and lower their consequences, but the only conceivable way to eliminate driver risk altogether would be to take away any control over the vehicle from that driver.

So, yes, I positively want better, more reliable feedback from my wheel, but I don't want it to entirely take over control.

BTW: at approx. 85Kg dressed for success, I consider myself a fairly average European. Lately I had a chance to ride up and down some rather steep BMX trails in the woods. The MS3 never failed to accelerate from almost stand still at the steepest parts. At least at such low speeds, I'm not missing torque and just love that beast. 

Have fun & wheel safely!

a great post

i love every word you said (and i agree... which i guess surprises you, but i wish it wouldn't)

your CAR point is perfect

i just wish there were something in the electronics that NEVER KILLED THE WHEEL but just SLOWED IT DOWN as quickly as SAFELY possible... only DISCONTINUING THE BALANCING OF ITSELF... as the VERY LAST DITCH EFFORT before self-destructing. i hope that isn't too much to ask

maybe..... as it SLOWED quickly while MAINTAINING BALANCING it could announce, LOUDLY:

"Your self-indulgent fun time has come to an end. We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused you or your fragile ego."