ESBU

1640Wh - 67,2V / 1600Wh - 84V

155 posts in this topic

Can somebody finally explain difference please ?

Why is product differenced to chinese and overseas market ?

Why some sellers offering both versions ?  http://bit.ly/2dm4VcN

There is a lot of contributions about, but I can not find answer for myself.

Please, describe most detailed for anyone who want to decide which unicycle buy. Thank you.

 

 

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11 hours ago, ESBU said:

Can somebody finally explain difference please ?

Why is product differenced to chinese and overseas market ?

Why some sellers offering both versions ?  http://bit.ly/2dm4VcN

There is a lot of contributions about, but I can not find answer for myself.

Please, describe most detailed for anyone who want to decide which unicycle buy. Thank you.

 

 

Everything we know is what you have read on this forum. For some reason we can't or at least haven't received any information about the exact details of the 2 products. 

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It doesn't say anything about 1600 / 1640 models in description - only 680, 820 and 1640 - while in selection it includes 1600 version as well which in theory non of the Chinese sellers should have access to as those are meant for export only. Also 1640 should not be exported. Total mess.

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i've still seen the expression "high speed version" when chinese sellers are talking about the 1600 version (84v)

not sure IF that is true

not sure IF anyone wants THAT type of wheel

MORE TORQUE and LESS TOP END.... that's what ALL OF US want... i think

it's really like a marginally bad made-for-tv movie or something

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2 hours ago, MaxLinux said:

For me, if I have to get off and carry the wheel up a hill, that wheel is no fun NO MATTER HOW FAST IT CAN GO.

absolutely...

and, 30 mph we JUST DON'T NEED

that's just too fast for any kind of sane travel... no matter what protective gears is worn

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10 hours ago, HEC said:

It doesn't say anything about 1600 / 1640 models in description - only 680, 820 and 1640 - while in selection it includes 1600 version as well which in theory non of the Chinese sellers should have access to as those are meant for export only. Also 1640 should not be exported. Total mess.

this link do not confirm what you wrote http://bit.ly/2dm4VcN

you can choose 1600 or 1640 battery version there

 

Gotway offering product, which is not covered with full tech.specs.

like:  "Hey dummies. We are having new product and you should discover by yourself what you want to know about"

Isn´t it sad true ?

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31 minutes ago, ESBU said:

this link do not confirm what you wrote http://bit.ly/2dm4VcN

you can choose 1600 or 1640 battery version there

 

Gotway offering product, which is not covered with full tech.specs.

like:  "Hey dummies. We are having new product and you should discover by yourself what you want to know about"

Isn´t it sad true ?

In the Product Description section is says: "Battery Capacity: 680WH,820WH,1640WH " and (as I've mentioned in my original post) the 1600 model is only in the selection of the colours / models on the top ;) So yes - it does confirm exactly what I've said (meaning that description is incorrect / incomplete - not that he's not offering the 1600 model).

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18 minutes ago, HEC said:

In the Product Description section is says: "Battery Capacity: 680WH,820WH,1640WH " and (as I've mentioned in my original post) the 1600 model is only in the selection of the colours / models on the top ;) So yes - it does confirm exactly what I've said (meaning that description is incorrect / incomplete - not that he's not offering the 1600 model).

its my misinterpret -_-

 

They offer 4 types (680, 820, 1600, 1640) and at the end of description: " 1600WH is a customized version of 84V, it takes 10 days to complete the delivery.  "

I can choose 1600 or 1640. No additional info about market restriction.

I asked seller for difference explanation ;)

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18 minutes ago, ESBU said:

I asked seller for difference explanation ;)

quick respond from wang ye:

The 1600wh voltage is 84V, the output power is bigger, the speed is quicker, the torque is stronger.
1640 kwh battery capacity, a little higher
Life 150Km, a difference of not more than 10
Normally there is only one charge port. If there is a need, we can change the USB to the charge port
Edited by ESBU
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24 minutes ago, ESBU said:

quick respond from wang ye:


The 1600wh voltage is 84V, the output power is bigger, the speed is quicker, the torque is stronger.
1640 kwh battery capacity, a little higher

i know the speed is faster with the 84V board but how do YOU know the TORQUE is STRONGER?

most feel here that the OPPOSITE IS TRUE

... just wondering

thank you

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9 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

i know the speed is faster with the 84V board but how do YOU know the TORQUE is STRONGER?

most feel here that the OPPOSITE IS TRUE

... just wondering

thank you

its respond from seller ;)

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15 minutes ago, ESBU said:

its respond from seller ;)

thank you

i appreciate that clarification

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Here is the 1640wh with the black side panels which was posted a couple weeks ago so it must be one of the early units. Its hard to tell until later in the video when he gives you a close up you can see its the 1640wh. also his friend looks to be riding one. so they are out there but its mainly overseas.

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13 hours ago, Greg Spalding said:

i've still seen the expression "high speed version" when chinese sellers are talking about the 1600 version (84v)

not sure IF that is true

not sure IF anyone wants THAT type of wheel

MORE TORQUE and LESS TOP END.... that's what ALL OF US want... i think

it's really like a marginally bad made-for-tv movie or something

Full ack

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2 hours ago, Greg Spalding said:

i know the speed is faster with the 84V board but how do YOU know the TORQUE is STRONGER?

most feel here that the OPPOSITE IS TRUE

... just wondering

thank you

As a mechanical engineer, I know that power = torque X wheel rotation speed 

You can't get higher torque and speed if the output power is the same. And even then you'll have to look at the torque vs rotation speed curves. 

2 hours ago, ESBU said:

its respond from seller ;)

I'm mostly skeptical and think that sellers will say all they want just to push sales. 

 

Not targeting anyone. Just putting this out there so that we all know you can't have your cake and eat it. Unless the power output is raised. Which somewhere I think linnea or Jane mentioned that the motor is the same, only voltage raised. 

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Wouldn't a higher voltage give higher speed AND torque?  Maybe not much more torque, but possibly a slight raise?  I'm also skeptical until these are fully tested, I'm just thinking about how higher voltage affects my e-Bike.  Higher voltage allows me to climb steeper hills using same motor.

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11 minutes ago, Chriull said:

If the 84v and 67,2v version use the same motor, the 84v version could have higher torque and higher max speed. By the higher battery voltage against the the voltage generated by the motor a higher current could flow, and the torque is direct proportional to the current.

if and how much of this possible additional current (torque) and max speed (voltage difference) can be/is used depends on the mainboard and the firmware.

Is it not possible to assume as well that if the motor is the same because it is being driven to higher speed and torque that it would have less longevity?

I realize you would say that the motor was being underutilized and 67.2 V but I doubt that is the case, Meaning that pushing it with 84 V to higher output values in both speed and torque would have a negative affect on the long-term survival of that odor in my mind.

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9 minutes ago, Chriull said:

I'd assume that the controll board is the limiting factor (overheating) and the motor should be capable of this loads. Maybe we'll know more once the different Msuper versions are reviewed...

i hope that your very reasonable assumption is correct

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18 hours ago, Chriull said:

If the 84v and 67,2v version use the same motor, the 84v version could have higher torque and higher max speed. By the higher battery voltage against the the voltage generated by the motor a higher current could flow, and the torque is direct proportional to the current.

if and how much of this possible additional current (torque) and max speed (voltage difference) can be/is used depends on the mainboard and the firmware.

 

18 hours ago, Chriull said:

I'd assume that the controll board is the limiting factor (overheating) and the motor should be capable of this loads. Maybe we'll know more once the different Msuper versions are reviewed...

I concur. However, if the electrical power output is not increased by the firmware (for reasons such as heat or certain other design limitations) we will expect to see a decrease in current ie torque. because simplified,

Electrical power = Current X Voltage

Mechanical power = Torque X wheel rotation speed

By conservation of energy: current X voltage X efficiency (<1.0) = torque X wheel rotation speed

With an increase in voltage, for the same power output, we can only expect a decrease in current supplied.

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6 hours ago, YaocH said:

 

I concur. However, if the electrical power output is not increased by the firmware (for reasons such as heat or certain other design limitations) we will expect to see a decrease in current ie torque. because simplified,

Electrical power = Current X Voltage

Mechanical power = Torque X wheel rotation speed

By conservation of energy: current X voltage X efficiency (<1.0) = torque X wheel rotation speed

With an increase in voltage, for the same power output, we can only expect a decrease in current supplied.

Exactly - _if_ gotway has some  similar power limiting implemented in firmware as kingsong for their KS16 (imho the last report/test was about 2700W?) than the 82V version will have lower torque at the same speed as the 67,2V version.

_If_ this "power" limiting implementation is in reality a current limiting (cannot be really differentiated from the reports/tests) the torque will equal for both versions

_If_ they increased the power/current limit for the 82V version for the heavier european riders, the torque of this version could be higher (presumed that also the heatsink/power dissipation capabilities of the mainboard got improved)

So imho still no prediction possible...

Edit:

I forgot an important case, for which an increased torque could imho be quite certainly predicted: driving at "normal/higher" speeds!

The generated voltage from the motor is proportional to the speed and the battery voltage is fixed (more or less) - so the maximum possible current is proportional to (Maximum Speed - actual Speed).  Current/Power is somehow limited for low speeds to protect the motherboard (Mosfets), but once the speed is faster than some "intrinsic value", the current is not anymore limited by firmware but by the voltage between battery voltage  and motor generated voltage. (Normaly known as the faster one goes, the easier it is to overlean the wheel).

Assuming the Msuper V3 has some comparable "lift cut-off speed (== ~ 0 torque speed) as the ACM 16 of ~52 km/h (motor generates 67,2V) at half of this 52 km/h (==26 km/h) the 67,2V version can provide a certain max torque direct proportional to the Current i=(67,2-67,2/2)/Z, but the 84V Version can provide a current i=(84-67,2/2)/Z.

So _if_ these currents are below the limiting implemented in the firmware the 84V version could provide 50% more current == torque than the 67,2V Version at 26 km/h!

Additionally (or the other way round)  This vmax ("~lift cut-off speed) would be for the MSuper V3 84V Version 52 km/h /67,2V*84V=65 km/h. So an increased safety margin before "cut-off/secure overlean"

2nd Edit: All of this above assuming that both MSuper Versions have the _same_ motor!

Edited by Chriull
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This is good info guys. It seems that most people here think based on the info we have that the 1600wh 84v will probably have more speed a less torque then the 1640wh. I was thinking why would they make 2 units then it occurred when someone said that us people overseas are heavier then most people in china which makes perfect sense on why they would so it. Now until we have some units to review we wont know but if the 1640wh does have more torque then I think thats the unit to purchase

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1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

...

As experience grows on this wheel, the most new impressive Feature/progression Gotway made with this MSuper V3 (for me)  is the fact, that the announced max Speed is working/functioning over the complete Batterie range!!! I have driven near max Speed on 25% Batterie..... the "lift off cut off Speed test" also seams to prove this experience, as this cut-off Speed is about 52-54kmh over the complete Batterie range!

...

On 5.10.2016 at 11:53 AM, Chriull said:

...I forgot an important case, for which an increased torque could imho be quite certainly predicted: driving at "normal/higher" speeds!

...Assuming the Msuper V3 has some comparable "lift cut-off speed (== ~ 0 torque speed) as the ACM 16 of ~52 km/h (motor generates 67,2V) at half of this 52 km/h (==26 km/h) the 67,2V version can provide a certain max torque direct proportional to the Current i=(67,2-67,2/2)/Z, but the 84V Version can provide a current i=(84-67,2/2)/Z.

So _if_ these currents are below the limiting implemented in the firmware the 84V version could provide 50% more current == torque than the 67,2V Version at 26 km/h!

Additionally (or the other way round)  This vmax ("~lift cut-off speed) would be for the MSuper V3 84V Version 52 km/h /67,2V*84V=65 km/h. So an increased safety margin before "cut-off/secure overlean"

...

As it seems the "lift cut off speed" for MSuper V3 is not the "zero torque max speed" of the motor, but limited by firmware if one follows the report of @KingSong69 and the motor does not produce a voltage of ~67,2V at 52 km/h but less, as this speed can still be reached with ~25% Battery Capacity (?~53V?)

This should not change anything about higher torque or higher speed safety margin for the 84V version, but the numeric examples i tried to give are totaly voided... Without being able to estimate any "fixpoint" of the speed/torque curve anymore ... But imho the (theoretically possible) 50% torque gain for the 84V version at ~26km/h should decrease.

 

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