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This is not good for us Msuper 16xx buyers. Now I'm scared:(

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Thank you for the answer, Linnea :)

Personally, my main GW problem is the official web Site of Gotway... Any chance to can consider it one day as the source of the available and up to date truth ?

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4 hours ago, esaj said:

The ratings of the cells tell the manufacturer recommended continuous and maximum amperages (like 10A continuous / 20 max per cell-series), but the cells themselves are capable of giving much higher currents... whether the cells themselves can take it for any longer period is another matter, but in theory, a single 16S -series with internal resistance of, say, 30 milliohms per cell could give out about 140A max. Put 4 packs in parallel, and (again theoretically) in short-circuit with zero-resistance wiring you'd get up to 560A!

 

Sorry Esaj, we have discussed this before...and this numbers are absolut wrong! Even theoretically...

The strongest possible 18650 is a Sony VTc5 2600mah(vtc6 is to new, i dont talk about) and has an max amperage of 30 Amp!

Our wheel batteries (without of ninebot lg hg2-20Amp) have an max continous amp of 10 Amp!

the seriuos producers like LG, panasonic, sony and samsung NEVER talk about the so called "short burst" rates, as they are in no way defined! That burst rate is only used by "rewrappers" like EFest or others and are mostly pure marketing! meaning it is not defined, means that it can be a "allowed" burst of a nanosecond or even 10 seconds!

But: I dont know where you have 140Amps number from!

Even for some vtc5(30amp) rewrappers state as max burst "only" 50Amp so max the double of continous! But as a vaper i know that eveything over the max continious (or lets say burst) is destroying the cell over time...i mean not aging: destroying! So to say a 18650 is capable of 140amps is -sorry again- pure nonsense! the generated heat will destroy the batterie and the dangerous is, you can not see that! Beside from that, even on a  amperage of the continius max load the volt drop is to massive!

then: Our batteries( again: not ninebot lg-hg2) are "just" 10 amp maximum...and to be honest: These cells our wheel use, are known in the "high wattage vaper world"as the worst batteries, not common for delivering anything over 10Amp, and  are just recommended to a use of max, lets say 4-5 Amps! Compare our batteries on a continuous 10amp with a sony vtc5 with 10 amp (dampfakkus.de) and you know whats up!

giving a 140Amp on any 18650 batteries would make them for sure explode/blow out real fast or at minimum damage it in its innerst chemicals. In Vaping putting a coil(resistance) that makes over 40-50Amp on a 18650 is comparable with suicide attemps as you have the 18650 direct in front of your face :-)

In all electronical discussions you are fantastic, and i would allways better ask you, before i even make a statement...Kudos to your expertise!!!

But if i know something...than it is 18650 batteries...vaping since 5 years with these things and know exactly what which batteries can do...and what not:-) 140 Amps is as wrong as it can be, even with 20amps our batteries would directly drop under 3.0 volt and give up....

Edited by KingSong69
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@KingSong69 Maybe you misunderstood what @esaj was trying to say (or maybe me)? I think the point was that if you'd short the batteries (or try to pull much higher current that they're "rated" for) they'll not magically on their own limit the current or stop providing current / voltage altogether. They'll simply give as much as physically / chemically possible - even if only for  fraction of the second - and then explode / burn down the house ;) So unless there is a current limiting device in the circuit (fuse, resistor or MOSFET) which will burn first the battery will continue to provide increased demand for the current (we're talking hare about the cell without built in over / under voltage protection).

In reality a short "spikes" /  burst of the current above the rated values are sustainable by most of the high quality cells despite manufacturers not listing those at official specs sheets and some devices are built around this "undocumented" / unofficial functionality. And the spikes could be definitely longer than only milliseconds if the current is "only" about the double or triple of the rated values.

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1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

Sorry Esaj, we have discussed this before...and this numbers are absolut wrong! Even theoretically...

The strongest possible 18650 is a Sony VTc5 2600mah(vtc6 is to new, i dont talk about) and has an max amperage of 30 Amp!

Our wheel batteries (without of ninebot lg hg2-20Amp) have an max continous amp of 10 Amp!

the seriuos producers like LG, panasonic, sony and samsung NEVER talk about the so called "short burst" rates, as they are in no way defined! That burst rate is only used by "rewrappers" like EFest or others and are mostly pure marketing! meaning it is not defined, means that it can be a "allowed" burst of a nanosecond or even 10 seconds!

But: I dont know where you have 140Amps number from!

Sorry, the quote was taken a bit out of context (regarding burning mainboards)... the 140A number is got as follows:

-Put 16 cells with 30 milliohms each in series, coming to a total resistance of 480 milliohms = 0.48 ohms (assuming zero resistance between the cell connections)

-Assume a short-circuit with totally zero resistance (which of course is not reality) between the terminals of first and last cell

-Assume that the cells are loaded to full voltage, 4.2V per cell = 67.2V total

Voltage drop over the entire circuit is 67.2V over a resistance of 0.48ohms:  I = U/R = 67.2V / 0.48ohm = 140A

Of course this is a totally theoretical figure (the total resistance of the circuit in reality will always be more than the internal resistances of the cells). And why would you short circuit the pack anyway? :P  But, should that happen for whatever reason, the momentary current spike can reach very high values, easily enough to fry something in the circuit (most likely the mosfets on the mainboard in case of a half-bridge shoot-through).

Of course the cells should never be used under such conditions for any length of time, even if they won't downright catch fire or explode, they'll still probably suffer at least some damage...

 

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

Even for some vtc5(30amp) rewrappers state as max burst "only" 50Amp so max the double of continous! But as a vaper i know that eveything over the max continious (or lets say burst) is destroying the cell over time...i mean not aging: destroying! So to say a 18650 is capable of 140amps is -sorry again- pure nonsense! the generated heat will destroy the batterie and the dangerous is, you can not see that! Beside from that, even on a  amperage of the continius max load the volt drop is to massive!

Yep, the internal resistance will drop the voltage, but the current passing through a series circuit is the same for each component, and with multiple packs in parallel, the absolute maximum amperage of the components is likely exceeded by a very large factor. That's why we have BMSs to cut the power under short circuits or such (but even they may not react fast enough to save the components).

 

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

then: Our batteries( again: not ninebot lg-hg2) are "just" 10 amp maximum...and to be honest: These cells our wheel use, are known in the "high wattage vaper world"as the worst batteries, not common for delivering anything over 10Amp, and  are just recommended to a use of max, lets say 4-5 Amps! Compare our batteries on a continuous 10amp with a sony vtc5 with 10 amp (dampfakkus.de) and you know whats up!

giving a 140Amp on any 18650 batteries would make them for sure explode/blow out real fast or at minimum damage it in its innerst chemicals. In Vaping putting a coil(resistance) that makes over 40-50Amp on a 18650 is comparable with suicide attemps as you have the 18650 direct in front of your face :-)

In all electronical discussions you are fantastic, and i would allways better ask you, before i even make a statement...Kudos to your expertise!!!

Ha, I still don't consider myself an "expert" when it comes to electronics... :D  More like "happy-go-lucky"-amateur.

 

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55 minutes ago, HEC said:

@KingSong69 Maybe you misunderstood what @esaj was trying to say (or maybe me)? I think the point was that if you'd short the batteries (or try to pull much higher current that they're "rated" for) they'll not magically on their own limit the current or stop providing current / voltage altogether. They'll simply give as much as physically / chemically possible - even if only for  fraction of the second - and then explode / burn down the house ;) So unless there is a current limiting device in the circuit (fuse, resistor or MOSFET) which will burn first the battery will continue to provide increased demand for the current (we're talking hare about the cell without built in over / under voltage protection).

In reality a short "spikes" /  burst of the current above the rated values are sustainable by most of the high quality cells despite manufacturers not listing those at official specs sheets and some devices are built around this "undocumented" / unofficial functionality. And the spikes could be definitely longer than only milliseconds if the current is "only" about the double or triple of the rated values.

I think i understood quiet good :-) But talking that these batteries (very especially our wheel batteries) can deliver 140amps theoretically is just not corect!

Even sony vtc5 can not do that...

in vaping you are giving that burst for about 2-3 seconds. not longer...and There have been enough reports of blowing 18650 even with 40 amp! And that have been 30 Amp rated sony...so stating that our 10 amp batteries -which are really crap for delivering high amount of amps, believe me- can deliver 140Amps is just wrong! 

like i said...i would always give in, and say Esaj is wright on his statements, as he is always very reliable and well known, but not on this 18650 statement :-)

 

Edited now after Esajs Statement:

@esaj ok, we are talking about totally different things...

You are refering to the resistance...i am refering to what -especially our 3500mah batterie with max 10Amps-can do and what not!

Perhaps, ,perhaps, none of the batteries will blow by an nanoshort 140amp draw...

But that was not the real context in this discussion...was more about that 8p can deliver more power than 4p :-)

Whatever: I wish Ks and GW would use batteries with higher amprates, like the hg2 or vtc6.... everytime i go up a hill or accelerate fast, on the app i can see a hard amount of batterie sag....and so less watthours that we can use!

one of my next projects will be to switch my Ks18 or v3 over to li-pos...gets me excited just when i think about it :-)

 

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4 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

 

But that was not the real context in this discussion...was more about that 8p can deliver more power than 4p :-)

The 8p should be able to deliver twice as much than the 4p, but each pack has more than enough potential to fry any motherboard in case of design issues without probs. The 4p will definitely not stop delivering current anywhere near the 40A - for short bursts, which are more than long enough to fry any mosfet.

at least they can easily deliver 20A per cells (see below) - so 80 A for a 4p pack. And already this is enough to destroy any mosfet in a to220 casing...

4 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Whatever: I wish Ks and GW would use batteries with higher amprates, like the hg2 or vtc6.... everytime i go up a hill or accelerate fast, on the app i can see a hard amount of batterie sag....and so less watthours that we can use!

I looked in another thread at the capacity "loss" of the now mostly used 3500mah/10A continous current lg cells used. There is quite noticable capacity loss (according to dampfakkus.de (one has to look at the raw data of the tables - the x axis labels are mostly messed up ;( )) if discharged with 2, 5 or 10A. If i remember right there's also a discharge table for 20A...(with huge capacity "loss")

so it depends on the frequency of higher loads, but at least for heavy riders in hilly terrain the lower capacity higher amperage cells could give a real range benefit over the high capacity lower amperage cells.

And also not as strong voltage sag should give one much more trust - as the firmwares now restrict power delivery and or start tiltback depending on the battery voltage (which in this case they confuse with remaining capacity). The tiltback increases the needed power and worsens the already difficult situation... imho for this smarter firmware is urgently needed.

Could also be, that the voltage sags are big enough, that the cpu restarts and the half bridge opens (was somewhere mentioned for one motherboard in the firmware thread) which fries the mosfets instantly. If this is the case the 8p packs should not fry the mb as easily, as there is only half the voltage sag...

imho also one gw representative here wrote, that there are different mb versions for the 820 and the 16xx versions...

without knowing the exact design issues of the mb/firmware the possible reasons are quite manifold...

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1 hour ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Testing items includes load test (as our guys are not heavier as Euro and US riders, so we always test it with two people, one people on rider's back, about 135kg totally). Go hills, down hills, keep leaning forward and backward to make mainboard temperature go high to check if it can bare the high temperature.

For aftersales service, we would suggest riders to buy wheels from local distributors or agents, maybe their price is higher than online shop, but they can supply a good after sales service for you. For most local distributors and agents, they have spare parts in stocks and know how to fix the wheels. Our wheels are not cheap as other OEM brands wheels in the market, so it is more important to find a reliable shop which could supply you good after sales service if there is any problem with your wheel. 

We have distributors in US, but consider the law of US, I would not public them here. But if you want to buy wheels in US or have problem with wheels, I will refer you to our distributors.

 

1.  your idea of PIGGYBACK Riding to approximate american body styles is hysterical.... 

2.  i don't care what i pay (to a point).... but, no US-BASED dealer can give me good service if YOU don't SUPPLY HIM with parts and know-how.... and if YOUR company is UNABLE to keep HIM in business.... THIS has been the problem with GotWay for some time.... there have been warranty issues that have fallen on DEAF EARS because (at least to the naked eye) you guys have been more concerned with the "NEXT SALE" than with the sale which already took place.

 

i'm NOT trying to be rude but i'm just giving you PERCEPTION FROM MY STANDPOINT. i love what you guys make but we need more assurances BECAUSE you guys don't sell CHEAP STUFF.... FOR THE RECORD, I NEVER WANTED CHEAP STUFF....... i'd rather pay more for stuff to which i trust my life and physical health

 

why don't you guys strike some deal with JASON MCNEIL

he is probably the most reputable US-BASED dealer 

let HIM sell YOUR stuff

THEN you'd show me how much "after-the-sale" issues matter to GotWay

that's all i ask

thanks for your time

we want to buy FROM A US-BASED DEALER HERE IN THE US

can you help us?

please call jason mcneil and figure that out with him

we'd ALL like that

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11 hours ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Testing items includes load test (as our guys are not heavier as Euro and US riders, so we always test it with two people, one people on rider's back, about 135kg totally). Go hills, down hills, keep leaning forward and backward to make mainboard temperature go high to check if it can bare the high temperature.

For aftersales service, we would suggest riders to buy wheels from local distributors or agents, maybe their price is higher than online shop, but they can supply a good after sales service for you. For most local distributors and agents, they have spare parts in stocks and know how to fix the wheels. Our wheels are not cheap as other OEM brands wheels in the market, so it is more important to find a reliable shop which could supply you good after sales service if there is any problem with your wheel. 

We have distributors in US, but consider the law of US, I would not public them here. But if you want to buy wheels in US or have problem with wheels, I will refer you to our distributors.

 

 

Piggy back a second rider is a good idea. I've seen a video somewhere with two on a MSuper ;)

But this will not make it possible to ride a trail or what ever to simulate heavy weight. You can't act with two people like one heavy rider. 

You need a beta program or distributors with the right people connected to them to do pre testing and you'll get more qualified feedback in a short time. I can overheat the MSuper in a couple of minutes on a medium uphill trail over here. Look for the worst conditions and select pre testers. Send them the wheels (engineering sample/ pre production) for a reduced price and you'll prevent the most painful quality issues on production.

Also if you do this with the Apps.

Edited by OliverH
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Just now, OliverH said:

Piggy back a second rider is a god idea. I've seen a video somewhere with two on a MSuper ;)

But this will not make it possible to ride a trail or what ever to simulate heavy weight. You can't act with two people like one heavy rider. 

You need a beta program or distributors with the right people connected to them to do pre testing and you'll get more qualified feedback in a short time. I can overheat the MSuper in a couple of minutes on a medium uphill trail over here. Look for the worst conditions and select pre testers. Send them the wheels (engineering sample/ pre production) for a reduced price and you'll prevent the most painful quality issues on production.

Also if you do this with the Apps.

Some distributors will get sample wheels to help testing after our testing. 

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13 minutes ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Some distributors will get sample wheels to help testing after our testing. 

This is fantastic news for everybody. It's additional testing for you guys closer to the environments and situations they are going to be sold in, more re-assurance for potential buyers and the distributors get to know the wheels so are more able to advise/help their customers.

I know Ian Sampson at Speedyfeet UK has been testing the MSuper V3 recently and loves it. He is one of the best you can have selling your products as he does lot's of video's either reviewing, showing how to fix or basically just out and about riding. He is known world wide and has had some pretty cool celebs buying from him (including Lewis Hamilton) which helps the brand out even more. The amount of time and effort he put into getting the NineBot series known was pronominal but they decided to pass control of their distribution to Segway Europe leaving him and other distributors with a lot of wheels and no support.  Having him as one of your distributors should definitely be a boost. 

I am sure you have a lot more decent distributors out there, (including Yorkshire Airwheels) doing a phenomenal job too, but Ian at Speedyfeet UK is the main one I saw when first researching EUC's just over a year ago.

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7 hours ago, Chriull said:

 

imho also one gw representative here wrote, that there are different mb versions for the 820 and the 16xx versions...

without knowing the exact design issues of the mb/firmware the possible reasons are quite manifold...

The 1600wh/84Volt Version was said to have another board.....not for the 1640wh/67,2Volt Version....

For the rest of your post...i am completly with you!

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I appreciate all of the information above and if there are other dealers this country I don't know why I have to find out who they are in a private correspondence.

I only mention Jason because he's an active member here and a well respected businessman takes care of his customers and in the end when you are riding around on some new kind of personal vehicle you want that. We are trusting our lives in our physical health to these devices and of course no one is forcing us to do so, but when I do spend $2000 I would like somebody to be around to help me in the event a repair as necessary.

If somebody is a US-based distributor for their products then why don't they have a website that says so?

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8 hours ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Some distributors will get sample wheels to help testing after our testing. 

I know. But this comes to late for testing and feedback to change faulty parts and do re engineering. Or the product comes to early. Look on the Samsung Note 7 disaster, which was to early on market - rumours say they cut quality testing to have the primeur in front of iPhone 7. If the failure is to big it's not only about reputation. 

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On 9/24/2016 at 10:46 AM, KingSong69 said:

Hmmh...

while a 820wh version with 16s4p can only generate about 40 Amps...the 1640/8p can bring out 80Amps...

As this board/motor with 12Mos is the same as ACM i can not see why the 820wh version should bring up more burned boards then ACM....i suggest with 1640wh its another thing...

So will be nice to see what then the 1600wh version with 84 volt will produce :-) welcome to the world of beta-testing ;-)

The reason is simple the ACM is a 16" wheel the Msuper v3 a 18" wheel. Lets assume they are both going up an equally steep hill, the motor for the msuper will ask the control board for more power than the ACM under the same conditions, since the controller it is the bottle neck it is the controller that is subject to more power demand the one that will get burned. In other words a better control board is needed for the msuper v3. A good control board should be able to handle whatever amounts of power the motor asks for, if the control board can not deliver without overheating it is not up to the task and it will eventually burn.

The ACM by having a smaller wheel has lower power demands from the control board assuming it is the same motor.

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20 hours ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

I will refer you to our distributors.

 

 

Can you get me the details for a vendor near Nashville Tennessee or St Louis Missouri?

 

Thank you

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On 2016/9/25 at 1:19 AM, EcoDrift said:

We will get on next week Gotway Msuper V3 1600 Wh with 72 V motors)) 

84v and 67.2v is the same motor,different battery

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I'm realizing on my own that this image I created looks somewhat crude.  This was not what I intended when so made it.  I apologize if I offended anyone.  Here is another one.

 

@Greg Spalding Greg, if you could take down my image from your post I would appreciate it.  Thanks

Image 4.jpg

Edited by Sketch
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13 hours ago, Sketch said:

I'm realizing on my own that this image I created looks somewhat crude.  This was not what I intended when so made it.  I apologize if I offended anyone.  Here is another one.

 

@Greg Spalding Greg, if you could take down my image from your post I would appreciate it.  Thanks

Image 4.jpg

i took it down

yours wasn't crude

i thought it was fun

i took mine down

i hope i didn't offend anyone

have a wonderful day

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On 27 September 2016 at 0:06 PM, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Testing items includes load test (as our guys are not heavier as Euro and US riders, so we always test it with two people, one people on rider's back, about 135kg totally). Go hills, down hills, keep leaning forward and backward to make mainboard temperature go high to check if it can bare the high temperature.

For aftersales service, we would suggest riders to buy wheels from local distributors or agents, maybe their price is higher than online shop, but they can supply a good after sales service for you. For most local distributors and agents, they have spare parts in stocks and know how to fix the wheels. Our wheels are not cheap as other OEM brands wheels in the market, so it is more important to find a reliable shop which could supply you good after sales service if there is any problem with your wheel. 

We have distributors in US, but consider the law of US, I would not public them here. But if you want to buy wheels in US or have problem with wheels, I will refer you to our distributors.

 

 

The testing methods used by Gotway and probably all other Chinese manufacturers of electric unicycles is pathetically inadequate.

they are marketing high risk motorised devices which have no redundancy in their design, and amazingly they do not even have dyno-rig testing as part of the development process and safety testing of their products.

Prior to release, each model should be thoroughly tested using quantifiable methods to determine exact power and sustainability for both durability and safety.

Its no wonder the pages on this forum is littered with stories of problems and failures. I can only hope that one day, a Chinese manufacturer takes proper steps to ensure the safety of end users of their products, perhaps then , Euc's may be taken seriously as a future mode of personal transport by the broader world community.

Years ago I raced cars here in Australia, even as a small individual race team, it was necessary for us to test various components on a dyno-rig to determine if changes made were improving our cars for power and reliability. Only after these test results showed improvement did we proceed to road- testing the changes.

To me, it seems ridiculous for a manufacturer of any product, to not conduct proper testing prior to marketing .  Admitting to piggybacking someone around as their testing method is totally laughable

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1 hour ago, Mistagear said:

The testing methods used by Gotway and probably all other Chinese manufacturers of electric unicycles is pathetically inadequate.

they are marketing high risk motorised devices which have no redundancy in their design, and amazingly they do not even have dyno-rig testing as part of the development process and safety testing of their products.

Prior to release, each model should be thoroughly tested using quantifiable methods to determine exact power and sustainability for both durability and safety.

Its no wonder the pages on this forum is littered with stories of problems and failures. I can only hope that one day, a Chinese manufacturer takes proper steps to ensure the safety of end users of their products, perhaps then , Euc's may be taken seriously as a future mode of personal transport by the broader world community.

Years ago I raced cars here in Australia, even as a small individual race team, it was necessary for us to test various components on a dyno-rig to determine if changes made were improving our cars for power and reliability. Only after these test results showed improvement did we proceed to road- testing the changes.

To me, it seems ridiculous for a manufacturer of any product, to not conduct proper testing prior to marketing .  Admitting to piggybacking someone around as their testing method is totally laughable

I'm with you 100% but as long as they are still selling them, and they obviously are, this wont change. I must admit I've been Msuper happy with my V2 and have not had one issue in a year of riding at top speed most of the time. But with the reports of these new units having issues, I just hope that nobody gets seriously hurt. Unitl gotway is allowed to sell there units here in the states or in any other country legally, and have support people in place in that country, I think its always going to be the same song and dance. Your going to buy your unit and PRAY to god that you get a good unit and have no problems. and if you do have a problem your probably looking at 2 months before you get a part you need if you pay and maybe longer if your trying warranty claim

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